I feel the ceiling.

I really would not get so down on myself. I know this may be heresy but you may be getting too boged down with the numbers. I really would not look at that power profile especially unless you have enough data.

You say you are a committed roadie, how do you perform in a group ride or race?

Also how much do you weigh and what is your watts/kg? I know many people with watts in the low 200s but do not weigh much so that makes up for alot.

In the end though I really feel you are best served with a general push method of 2 or 3 X 20 at SST and than just continue to increase the time till you reach a full 60 minutes and than up the watts by 10 watts and go through the same routine. This has worked wonders for me. Ofcourse I do not do this everyday but is the main training of my week.

You will ofcourse hit a wall and than eventually will be stuck for months and than you will have a sudden breakthrough.

Also do not underestimate the need for recovery time during your training. I am not sure how much you are putting in.

-js

simplyred said:

I am appealing to the masses - to share my story and hopefully learn something. As I learn more from this forum, articles from the Dr's, and other sources - I find myself still a bit hazy on how to improve my performance. I'm hoping that some discussion can take place - so I can get a better picture.

My LT* [200W] is right around 83% of VO2max [240W**] - so I assume I've squeezed almost every last drop of lactate threshold training possible.

*As in @ 200W - I'm swearing, squirming, in utter hysterics - but able to crank out the watts for 20 minutes for 2 or 3 intervals.
**Power @ VO2Max is max sustainable power for 5 minutes - no?

Power profile as of today [68kg]:
11.32 | 5 | 3.53 | 2.94
Looks like a Cat 5 TTer - no? So I can't say I have lots of fast-twitch muscles to account for crappy aerobic power.

Started riding in 2004 - lots of base, generally a committed roadie.
Recent work on the PT:
May/June - a 8wk block of high intensity intervals outdoors - nothing too structured, just some 1 min jumps ~300W - 400W/40 - 50kph.
July - racking up SST/4X20's TSS, rebuilding base/FTP.
August - 95% of original FTP [220W].

I feel the ceiling - I feel like I can't push through. I'm not a natural athlete - I figure I have a really crappy VO2max and I've maxed out on my abilities as a person. But these numbers are almost untrained - what should I do?

Do some structured VO2max? [I've never done 5X5 VO2max training]
L3 enduro building? [to raise FTP?]

*EVEN IF* I raise my power @ VO2max to 290W [20 %inc] and maintain my LT as 83%. I get a FTP of roughly 240W.

Sigh... let's hear it... 🙁

jsirabella said:

I really would not get so down on myself. I know this may be heresy but you may be getting too boged down with the numbers. I really would not look at that power profile especially unless you have enough data.

You say you are a committed roadie, how do you perform in a group ride or race?

Also how much do you weigh and what is your watts/kg? I know many people with watts in the low 200s but do not weigh much so that makes up for alot.

In the end though I really feel you are best served with a general push method of 2 or 3 X 20 at SST and than just continue to increase the time till you reach a full 60 minutes and than up the watts by 10 watts and go through the same routine. This has worked wonders for me. Ofcourse I do not do this everyday but is the main training of my week.

You will ofcourse hit a wall and than eventually will be stuck for months and than you will have a sudden breakthrough.

Also do not underestimate the need for recovery time during your training. I am not sure how much you are putting in.

-js

Thanks. I have about 8 months of PT use, 2 months w/ TP WKO+.

Group rides are okay, I get popped @ ~45kph - but that's when grenades are being thrown. I'm going to begin racing next year. My goal is to have fun - mess around, make some attacks, get in some breaks - winning is an afterthought. I just don't know if my go-kart engine can even stir the pot in the 4's [Canada doesn't have 5's].

68kg - 2.9W/kg.

The past month I've been doing 4 X 20's @ 170/180W [almost everyday! :eek:] just to get back into the grind. I hit some 190's for 20m - but nothing spectacular.

You make a good point about recovery. I had some 2day/3days off by virtue of logistics - but no rest "week" since May. I suppose that's where some of my staleness can be attributed?

68kg - 2.9 W/kg is not bad at all IMHO as you are getting into the 3s and my personal goal is 4 W/kg and I believe you can do well in a race at 4 W/kg. This means you need to be doing about 270 Watts for an hour at your current weight.

Maybe it is the way you are writing but it sound like you do not have much structure to your training. I would try and add that a bit more. Meaning I do not think you should be continual doing 170/180 but need to plan a weekly plan i.e.

M- Rest Day Off Bike
T- 3 or 4 X 10 at LT
W- 2 or 3 X 20 at SST
Th - 1 X 60 at ??? watts
Fri - Rest Day or Rec Ride with 1 X 20 at Low SST
Sat - 2-3 Hour Tempo Ride
Sun - 2-3 Hour Tempo Ride

If you are not into structure, start adding 5 watts to those 4X20s and move it up to a solid hour with no break once they start to feel easy. If that is too hard than break up to the 20 minutes into small units meaning 2 minutes at 190 than 2 minutes at 180 until you reach 20 minutes and than take a five minute break. You can play with the numbers as long as the average is the one you are looking for X minutes...the key is spending as much time as you can in the higher watts so your body will adapt.

As far as recovery what is your CTL and how much TSS are you generating during your workouts? As a general rule I do not like a rest week as I loose to much CTL but you do need to listen to your body.

-js

simplyred said:

Thanks. I have about 8 months of PT use, 2 months w/ TP WKO+.

Group rides are okay, I get popped @ ~45kph - but that's when grenades are being thrown. I'm going to begin racing next year. My goal is to have fun - mess around, make some attacks, get in some breaks - winning is an afterthought. I just don't know if my go-kart engine can even stir the pot in the 4's [Canada doesn't have 5's].

68kg - 2.9W/kg.

The past month I've been doing 4 X 20's @ 170/180W [almost everyday! :eek:] just to get back into the grind. I hit some 190's for 20m - but nothing spectacular.

You make a good point about recovery. I had some 2day/3days off by virtue of logistics - but no rest "week" since May. I suppose that's where some of my staleness can be attributed?

jsirabella said:

68kg - 2.9 W/kg is not bad at all IMHO as you are getting into the 3s and my personal goal is 4 W/kg and I believe you can do well in a race at 4 W/kg. This means you need to be doing about 270 Watts for an hour at your current weight.

Maybe it is the way you are writing but it sound like you do not have much structure to your training. I would try and add that a bit more. Meaning I do not think you should be continual doing 170/180 but need to plan a weekly plan i.e.

M- Rest Day Off Bike
T- 3 or 4 X 10 at LT
W- 2 or 3 X 20 at SST
Th - 1 X 60 at ??? watts
Fri - Rest Day or Rec Ride with 1 X 20 at Low SST
Sat - 2-3 Hour Tempo Ride
Sun - 2-3 Hour Tempo Ride

If you are not into structure, start adding 5 watts to those 4X20s and move it up to a solid hour with no break once they start to feel easy. If that is too hard than break up to the 20 minutes into small units meaning 2 minutes at 190 than 2 minutes at 180 until you reach 20 minutes and than take a five minute break. You can play with the numbers as long as the average is the one you are looking for X minutes...the key is spending as much time as you can in the higher watts so your body will adapt.

As far as recovery what is your CTL and how much TSS are you generating during your workouts? As a general rule I do not like a rest week as I loose to much CTL but you do need to listen to your body.

-js

Hmm.. I should give some more context.
From Oct 2007 - Apr 2008 [8 mths]:
I sat on my PT and did 2X20's every other day and watched my FTP go from 170W to 220W [woohoo 29% increase].
Approx. CTL 46TSS/d

May 2008 - June 2008
Pretty much 1hr outdoor rides, every other day. Circled around 300/400W jumps of around 1min.
Approx. CTL 46TSS/d

July 2008
Saw my FTP come back down to 170W [from lack of 2x20's] and scrambled to get as much SST back [ie. the 4x20's, TSS scores of around 200].
Approx. ATL 133TSS/d. Lowest TSB of -97.

August 2008
FTP back to around 200-210W. Gained ~30-40W in about 4 weeks. Feeling the wall now.

I suppose that huge spike in ATL can cause too much overload - hence the "wall"? TSB says -37 today.

I'm thinking of just doing an 8 wk L3 centred block [85% L3, 15% L4] with a CTL of 146TSS/d [:eek:] - as trying to break down walls may not work. It's just hard letting go of your hard L4 work [esp. when you're weak as moi] and forcibly slowing down in a effort to "open" the road to speed up.

Ok much clearer picture...

Simple question, How does your body feel? Do you feel you need more recovery time?

Like I said in last post I do not believe in rest week because of what it does to CTL. But if I feel I need recovery I will take it in some form. A TSS score of 100 or even up to 150 should not require too much recovery time but from my personal experience it depends on what I did they day before. Your spreadsheet shows alot of days in a row of 200 TSS and that would require for me more recovery time. I find a week of about 700-800 TSS works well for me.

I personally would not go to 85% tempo riding but may add a bit more recovery time and see what happens. I would stick with SST/L4 training and try a pull once in a while with VO2 Max.

It may be just an issue of patience as I find for myself that it can be frustating day after day and not seeing a new high....it will come though or atleast I have to believe it.

-js

simplyred said:

Hmm.. I should give some more context.
From Oct 2007 - Apr 2008 [8 mths]:
I sat on my PT and did 2X20's every other day and watched my FTP go from 170W to 220W [woohoo 29% increase].
Approx. CTL 46TSS/d

May 2008 - June 2008
Pretty much 1hr outdoor rides, every other day. Circled around 300/400W jumps of around 1min.
Approx. CTL 46TSS/d

July 2008
Saw my FTP come back down to 170W [from lack of 2x20's] and scrambled to get as much SST back [ie. the 4x20's, TSS scores of around 200].
Approx. ATL 133TSS/d. Lowest TSB of -97.

August 2008
FTP back to around 200-210W. Gained ~30-40W in about 4 weeks. Feeling the wall now.

I suppose that huge spike in ATL can cause too much overload - hence the "wall"? TSB says -37 today.

I'm thinking of just doing an 8 wk L3 centred block [85% L3, 15% L4] with a CTL of 146TSS/d [:eek:] - as trying to break down walls may not work. It's just hard letting go of your hard L4 work [esp. when you're weak as moi] and forcibly slowing down in a effort to "open" the road to speed up.

jsirabella said:

Ok much clearer picture...

Simple question, How does your body feel? Do you feel you need more recovery time?

Like I said in last post I do not believe in rest week because of what it does to CTL. But if I feel I need recovery I will take it in some form. A TSS score of 100 or even up to 150 should not require too much recovery time but from my personal experience it depends on what I did they day before. Your spreadsheet shows alot of days in a row of 200 TSS and that would require for me more recovery time. I find a week of about 700-800 TSS works well for me.

I personally would not go to 85% tempo riding but may add a bit more recovery time and see what happens. I would stick with SST/L4 training and try a pull once in a while with VO2 Max.

It may be just an issue of patience as I find for myself that it can be frustating day after day and not seeing a new high....it will come though or atleast I have to believe it.

-js

Body is REALLY responsive to intensive efforts compared to volume efforts. I've walked away just fine after 5/6hr, 200-250 TSS rides because they were pure L3/sub-L4 rides. If I blow myself up on upper limit L4's [TSS of 200] - I'm toast the next day, really sore legs - BUT I am still capable of reproducing the same power.

Recently, I've been getting REALLY irritable [my lady tells me so] and I've noticed I have a chip on my shoulder. Chalk that up to trying to do 40hrs of work and trying to squeeze in training hours, broken PT, bibs chamois unravelling and cutting into my legs, etc etc...

I figure it just fuels the L4 fire 😉 😄

My plan is motivated by my excessive L4 work the past month and lack of L3 base. I see some people mentioning that L3 is the long-term key to increasingly yearly - as compared to L4 work which just brings me back to a certain level.

Ah - I'm an impulsive guy - patience is not one of my virtues. Maybe I should just do track 😄

simplyred said:

I am appealing to the masses - to share my story and hopefully learn something. As I learn more from this forum, articles from the Dr's, and other sources - I find myself still a bit hazy on how to improve my performance. I'm hoping that some discussion can take place - so I can get a better picture.

My LT* [200W] is right around 83% of VO2max [240W**] - so I assume I've squeezed almost every last drop of lactate threshold training possible.

*As in @ 200W - I'm swearing, squirming, in utter hysterics - but able to crank out the watts for 20 minutes for 2 or 3 intervals.
**Power @ VO2Max is max sustainable power for 5 minutes - no?

Power profile as of today [68kg]:
11.32 | 5 | 3.53 | 2.94
Looks like a Cat 5 TTer - no? So I can't say I have lots of fast-twitch muscles to account for crappy aerobic power.

Started riding in 2004 - lots of base, generally a committed roadie.
Recent work on the PT:
May/June - a 8wk block of high intensity intervals outdoors - nothing too structured, just some 1 min jumps ~300W - 400W/40 - 50kph.
July - racking up SST/4X20's TSS, rebuilding base/FTP.
August - 95% of original FTP [220W].

I feel the ceiling - I feel like I can't push through. I'm not a natural athlete - I figure I have a really crappy VO2max and I've maxed out on my abilities as a person. But these numbers are almost untrained - what should I do?

Do some structured VO2max? [I've never done 5X5 VO2max training]
L3 enduro building? [to raise FTP?]

*EVEN IF* I raise my power @ VO2max to 290W [20 %inc] and maintain my LT as 83%. I get a FTP of roughly 240W.

Sigh... let's hear it... 🙁

I think your biggest limiter is the type of thinking I have shown in bold. 😉

Allow me to be the "just ride" guy. That is, not to say, don't use your power meter. You obviously do enjoy riding, since you are proposing 20+ hour weeks for August/September.

This summer I have adopted a "just ride" policy, and I am very pleased with my fitness level. My CTL hit 122 this past weekend. I had NP season's bests for 7 minutes through 3 hrs during training and racing this week. 🙂

My week looks like this:

Saturday - group ride ~4 hrs @ 0.79-0.83 IF
Sunday - group ride ~4 hrs @ 0.79-0.83 IF
Monday - off
Tuesday - solo ride 2-3 hrs
Wednesday - solo ride 2-3 hrs
Thursday - solo ride 2-3 hrs
Friday - off

The group ride almost always includes a peak 60' @ ~1.00 IF, plus 1 or 2 L5 efforts, 2-3 L4 efforts, countless L6 efforts, and a few sprints.

My solo rides, I just ride how I feel - using L3 as my base pace. I may have an IF anywhere from 0.75-0.93

My goal on a solo ride is often based on kJ, time, distance, average speed or average power, depending on how I feel both physically and mentally. No structured intervals. Hills I ride as hard or easy as I like. If I hit a long stretch with no lights, I may find myself doing some L4. If a car cuts me off, I may find myself getting in some L5-L6 work.... 🙂

I'm not saying I wouldn't be better served by some structure, but a local TT ace (i.e. sub 50' 40 km) said that even at his level he doesn't worry about structure.

I'll be doing so much structure over the winter, right now I'm happy to just ride.

simplyred said:

Hmm.. I should give some more context.
From Oct 2007 - Apr 2008 [8 mths]:
I sat on my PT and did 2X20's every other day and watched my FTP go from 170W to 220W [woohoo 29% increase].
Approx. CTL 46TSS/d

May 2008 - June 2008
Pretty much 1hr outdoor rides, every other day. Circled around 300/400W jumps of around 1min.
Approx. CTL 46TSS/d

July 2008
Saw my FTP come back down to 170W [from lack of 2x20's] and scrambled to get as much SST back [ie. the 4x20's, TSS scores of around 200].
Approx. ATL 133TSS/d. Lowest TSB of -97.

August 2008
FTP back to around 200-210W. Gained ~30-40W in about 4 weeks. Feeling the wall now.

I suppose that huge spike in ATL can cause too much overload - hence the "wall"? TSB says -37 today.

I'm thinking of just doing an 8 wk L3 centred block [85% L3, 15% L4] with a CTL of 146TSS/d [:eek:] - as trying to break down walls may not work. It's just hard letting go of your hard L4 work [esp. when you're weak as moi] and forcibly slowing down in a effort to "open" the road to speed up.

If I understand all the jargon correctly, you're talking about 16-18 hours of training/week at an IF= 0.83, which means daily 3-4 hr rides @ 175 W average power. Please correct if I'm off-base here.

You were seeing solid FTP progress for 8 months "just" doing 2x20's every other day, so I don't understand the need all the hours of high L3. IMO, unless you're competing in stage races or ultra-marathons. the lowest training volume/intensity that produces solid progress over the long run is generally the best to seek out and follow.

My impression is that OP is not training enough to really be bumping against any limits (real or perceived). I'm seeing 8mos of training (Oct - Apr) riding L4 every other day, and a CTL of 46?? :eek: Honestly, that's just not really much training load, especially considering the L4 focus.

There's been a lot of talk about intensity, levels, etc., but how many hours are you averaging a week? Obviously, we all have our own schedules and lives, but I'd say most racers are averaging at least 6-10 hr/wk for working/family types, and some are able to do even more than that.

Edit: I'm interpreting the charts as being the modified plan now being considered, if that's right. Seems like quite a large step-up in load from what you've been doing, but definitely a move in the right direction -- I'd try ramping towards those levels over a couple weeks.

dhk2 said:

If I understand all the jargon correctly, you're talking about 16-18 hours of training/week at an IF= 0.83, which means daily 3-4 hr rides @ 175 W average power. Please correct if I'm off-base here.

You were seeing solid FTP progress for 8 months "just" doing 2x20's every other day, so I don't understand the need all the hours of high L3. IMO, unless you're competing in stage races or ultra-marathons. the lowest training volume/intensity that produces solid progress over the long run is generally the best to seek out and follow.

Yes - reducing intensity and increasing volume as opposed to my old method of higher intensities with lower volumes. I decided to attempt to execute this plan because during my May/June phase - I was not content with my performance on the road. I wasn't fast enough [344W for 60s].

Either I didn't do enough L5 training to draw from my FTP build phase OR I didn't have a large enough base to draw from.

There's really nothing "wrong" with wanting to ride L3 - there will always be a benefit to it. I figure building this enormous base will only benefit me when I try and draw from it in October [the upcoming L5 phase]. Even if it was because of poor execution on my part in May/June - the next time around - I will have a much larger base to draw from - no?

If I were to define my goal - it would be to have "that" feeling. You know where you're on the road and with just the faintest whim - you jack up the watts and then you're gone on 53X15. "That" feeling where - winds are no longer friend/foe - they just exist. I figure I'm asking for cycling omnipotence - but hey, everyone's got a dream right? :o

To better describe that - it would be a massive aerobic engine and the capability to produce serious watts on my average ride [100km]. So for arguments sake - let's say 280W [~40kph] for 2.5hrs straight. Is that possible for a person with a VO2Max of ~40-50 ml/min/kg?

frenchyge said:

My impression is that OP is not training enough to really be bumping against any limits (real or perceived). I'm seeing 8mos of training (Oct - Apr) riding L4 every other day, and a CTL of 46?? :eek: Honestly, that's just not really much training load, especially considering the L4 focus.

There's been a lot of talk about intensity, levels, etc., but how many hours are you averaging a week? Obviously, we all have our own schedules and lives, but I'd say most racers are averaging at least 6-10 hr/wk for working/family types, and some are able to do even more than that.

Edit: I'm interpreting the charts as being the modified plan now being considered, if that's right. Seems like quite a large step-up in load from what you've been doing, but definitely a move in the right direction -- I'd try ramping towards those levels over a couple weeks.

Yeah - I know. CTL of 46. 29% increase in FTP. Bad athlete huh? 🙄 😉

From Oct - June 2008 - around 4 hrs/wk.
In July - at least 10hrs and up to 15hrs/wk.

Yes - that's the "plan". I figure July was a primer month and I should be ready to log in these miles. I have logged in these types of hours before [18hrs/wk @ L3 strictly] - I just didn't know HOW to spend the base afterwards - again, stunting my performance gains.

I understand that L3 base training can be good and will produce results but in your case this is not the type of result you are looking for. You are looking to raise your FTP. The best way to raise your FTP is through SST/L4 training. I know I sound like a broke record here.

I do not know all the science behind as Dave and the Doc are definitely the definitive sources for that but your best way to raise of FTP especially in your case where you just told me you have limited time is through SST/L4 training.

These walls can be very large once you hit them but I believe in time you will be able to surpass them. It is just a mater of making micro adjustments with the SST/L4 game not throwing it away. I do believe you do need to do L3 training also but not 85%. Also you posted that you saw your biggest gains with SST/L4...just need patience and maybe just slight adjustments in your training program.

-js

simplyred said:

Body is REALLY responsive to intensive efforts compared to volume efforts. I've walked away just fine after 5/6hr, 200-250 TSS rides because they were pure L3/sub-L4 rides. If I blow myself up on upper limit L4's [TSS of 200] - I'm toast the next day, really sore legs - BUT I am still capable of reproducing the same power.

Recently, I've been getting REALLY irritable [my lady tells me so] and I've noticed I have a chip on my shoulder. Chalk that up to trying to do 40hrs of work and trying to squeeze in training hours, broken PT, bibs chamois unravelling and cutting into my legs, etc etc...

I figure it just fuels the L4 fire 😉 😄

My plan is motivated by my excessive L4 work the past month and lack of L3 base. I see some people mentioning that L3 is the long-term key to increasingly yearly - as compared to L4 work which just brings me back to a certain level.

Ah - I'm an impulsive guy - patience is not one of my virtues. Maybe I should just do track 😄

122 CTL...wow, that is alot of time in the saddle. "just ride", I know I heard that before from someone...

Here is his latest race report from him...

------

I'm sorry all of you, I couldn't catch up earlier and give you some race reports and how it is going.

I was loaded with do the refitting for everyone in my team (P-NIVO team did change the frame, so most of them didn't have the old exact measurements) and since I have been doing it, some other team asked me to do for them as well. Plus top of it Peter Kusztor who was going to China to do the Olympics, need to get all the stuff get ready with 2 bikes(which I had to set up and make identical) and 3 pairs of racing wheels and one of them for rainy conditions. Also we raced a lot recently and we really doing well. We collect more UCI points then ever and first time ever, we can send 3 racers to do the World Road Championship. You need to know, these handful of pro racers are working so hard for almost no $, but they love what they do and it is really impressive how strong their heads are, and not complaining just keep pushing them self to deliver the results and win some $.

Two weeks ago we did a UCI 1.2 170km race in Slovakia. The course started with a 5 km climb, but we were able to set up a breakaway where we had 3 guys in. It was a real endurance road race without any technical section. The second half of the race was up and down, and the finish was a 3-4km climb. I felt really great, and my lady was here for the first time in Hungary and 2 weeks before the race, very honestly I wasn't really pedaling my bike and top of it, we were walking hours and hours(maybe I need to move my saddle 2-3mm lower, because legs got shorter from the lots of walking🙂
Peter took the first place and show great form on the final climb, two weeks before the Olympics.

Last Friday and Saturday our team organized 2nd time the Betonexpressz 2000 GP UCI 1.2 and the P-NIVO GP UCI 1.2 road races. The first day was 180km with a 20km brutal climb on the end, which goes up to the highest point in Hungary. The reason we did the race on Friday, because Peter has a plane to catch the following day to fly to Beijing. I didn't race that day, but my team mates set up a 12 men breakaway with 3 of my team-mates in. Before the final climb Rida from my team and Ivan Stevic from Serbia (who races for Toyota-United and won the last year B world road championship) took off and started the final climb with 2min advantage. Kusztor was behind the with another Serbian. Rida was doing most of the work on the front, and it was look like the Ivan just was waiting for the sprint to take the first day. The last 3km the 2 leaders had 1.5min advantage, but Peter Kusztor turned on the rocket and he was closing the gap and he was closing fast. He stayed on the saddle with the replacement bike(because the two racing bikes had been shipped to Beijing already) and the tempo what he set up, first he dropped the Serbian who started the climb with him, and he was closing rapidly on Rida and Ivan. He caught them on the last kilometer and without getting out the saddle, he passed them with so much more speed, none of them could respond and match up with his tempo and they couldn't take his wheel to try to hang on. He took first place and kept home the victory! Rida, over worked, he took the 4th place.
How brutal it was, half of the peleton couldn't finish it and 2/3 couldn't come in under the time limit!

cyclingnews.comroad.phpOpen ↗

Saturday race was completely flat, like a pool table with 176km to go. We had 3 Italian team-mate that day with Danielle Colli who raced for Liquigas Pro team. I was really excited to race with him and see what the big guns can do. We wanted to set up an early breakaway with at least 3-4 guys from our team to collect as many UCI points we can, to have enough points to qualified 3 racers for the Worlds in September. Depending how many UCI points each nation has before August 15th(and some other rules as well), each nation could send as many racers to do the worlds.

So it was important to get as many points we can and even more important to put those guys in the breakaway, who has the most UCI points so far(some other rules, I will tell you later). The first break what we try to set up, didn't come up with the right combination so we had to pull it back without having too much support from those team-mates who suppose to do the next attack after we catch the first one. 3 of us work super hard to pull back 10 guys on the front, and finally we made it and pull the first break back, than my other team-mates attacked and took off. 18 of them took off, because lots of racers sensed the next move and went with my team-mates, but we had the 4 guys on the front with 3 Hungarian and 1 Italian. I was done at that point, but I was able to hang on and recover. 40km to go Gergely Ivanice from my team attacked with an Italian Dominico Loria and kept the gap all the way to the end.
Rest of the breakaway was front of us with 1.5-2min gap, but my other team-mate and I couldn't work to pull it back to get better placing, because 3 of my other mates were in the group, so our interest was, let them stay away. That point Danielle Colli was already gone and didn't finish the race, which was surprising to me. I felt great and the last 20km 5-6 of us took of from the peleton and try to close the gap but it was too late, and we finished 1.5min behind the rest of the second group.

Also, 2/3 of the peleton didn't finished the race.

cyclingnews.comroad.phpOpen ↗

If everything goes well, we will do the US Univest invitational race in first week in September, but if we won't go, I will come back end of August.
------
Maybe "just ride" can work...just alot of it!

-js

postal_bag said:

I think your biggest limiter is the type of thinking I have shown in bold. 😉

Allow me to be the "just ride" guy. That is, not to say, don't use your power meter. You obviously do enjoy riding, since you are proposing 20+ hour weeks for August/September.

This summer I have adopted a "just ride" policy, and I am very pleased with my fitness level. My CTL hit 122 this past weekend. I had NP season's bests for 7 minutes through 3 hrs during training and racing this week. 🙂

My week looks like this:

Saturday - group ride ~4 hrs @ 0.79-0.83 IF
Sunday - group ride ~4 hrs @ 0.79-0.83 IF
Monday - off
Tuesday - solo ride 2-3 hrs
Wednesday - solo ride 2-3 hrs
Thursday - solo ride 2-3 hrs
Friday - off

The group ride almost always includes a peak 60' @ ~1.00 IF, plus 1 or 2 L5 efforts, 2-3 L4 efforts, countless L6 efforts, and a few sprints.

My solo rides, I just ride how I feel - using L3 as my base pace. I may have an IF anywhere from 0.75-0.93

My goal on a solo ride is often based on kJ, time, distance, average speed or average power, depending on how I feel both physically and mentally. No structured intervals. Hills I ride as hard or easy as I like. If I hit a long stretch with no lights, I may find myself doing some L4. If a car cuts me off, I may find myself getting in some L5-L6 work.... 🙂

I'm not saying I wouldn't be better served by some structure, but a local TT ace (i.e. sub 50' 40 km) said that even at his level he doesn't worry about structure.

I'll be doing so much structure over the winter, right now I'm happy to just ride.

To be able to maintain 280 watts for 2.5 hours would require an FTP of 300 watts atleast. That is no short order.

I think right now you need to focus on building the aerobic engine and the argument is either do it through L3 or SST/L4 training...I guess you know by now what my answer would be...🙂

-js

simplyred said:

Yes - reducing intensity and increasing volume as opposed to my old method of higher intensities with lower volumes. I decided to attempt to execute this plan because during my May/June phase - I was not content with my performance on the road. I wasn't fast enough [344W for 60s].

Either I didn't do enough L5 training to draw from my FTP build phase OR I didn't have a large enough base to draw from.

There's really nothing "wrong" with wanting to ride L3 - there will always be a benefit to it. I figure building this enormous base will only benefit me when I try and draw from it in October [the upcoming L5 phase]. Even if it was because of poor execution on my part in May/June - the next time around - I will have a much larger base to draw from - no?

If I were to define my goal - it would be to have "that" feeling. You know where you're on the road and with just the faintest whim - you jack up the watts and then you're gone on 53X15. "That" feeling where - winds are no longer friend/foe - they just exist. I figure I'm asking for cycling omnipotence - but hey, everyone's got a dream right? :o

To better describe that - it would be a massive aerobic engine and the capability to produce serious watts on my average ride [100km]. So for arguments sake - let's say 280W [~40kph] for 2.5hrs straight. Is that possible for a person with a VO2Max of ~40-50 ml/min/kg?

simplyred said:

Yeah - I know. CTL of 46. 29% increase in FTP. Bad athlete huh? 🙄 😉

From Oct - June 2008 - around 4 hrs/wk.
In July - at least 10hrs and up to 15hrs/wk.

Yes - that's the "plan". I figure July was a primer month and I should be ready to log in these miles. I have logged in these types of hours before [18hrs/wk @ L3 strictly] - I just didn't know HOW to spend the base afterwards - again, stunting my performance gains.

How about a bit of pulling up with some L5 work. And when you ride in a group, don't approach it thinking you're in for a kicking. Go in and say to yourself 'Right, let's get in amongst it' and really grit your teeth but, and this is important, use your loaf. Sit in for a bit when you feel you're going to blow, then get back in there and do some more.

I know how you feel, but if you just mix intensities up you might get a result.

Most importantly, think of yourself as an aggressive racer. Attitude is everything in this game.

[font=Arial][font=Verdana]Thanks everyone for the suggestions.

I will focus on raising FTP doing 20 minute intervals - even though I feel "stuck". I really didn't care to notice that my original tactic of low[er] CTL/high intensity brought high gains because I just felt these were the "easy" watts and that I was entering the realm of FTP "walls".

The consensus appears to be that you have to just stick to your wattage and your body will come around into producing higher watts.

If I feel stuck - I'll raise the volume, but maintain intensity for awhile - then try intervals at a higher power. My goals are really only 80W away - but I doubt I'll hit 300W in 2 months.

Thanks again. [img]cyclingforums.comsmile.gifOpen ↗[/img]


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simplyred said:

Yeah - I know. CTL of 46. 29% increase in FTP. Bad athlete huh? 🙄 😉

From Oct - June 2008 - around 4 hrs/wk.

Well, I wasn't criticizing your athletic ability, but rather your training plan. I thought that's what you were looking for with this thread. The truth is that 8 months of 4hr/wk just doesn't give you a lot to build on.

simplyred said:

In July - at least 10hrs and up to 15hrs/wk.

Yes - that's the "plan". I figure July was a primer month and I should be ready to log in these miles. I have logged in these types of hours before [18hrs/wk @ L3 strictly] - I just didn't know HOW to spend the base afterwards - again, stunting my performance gains.

Now you're talking. You may feel like you're losing a little bit of top end, but the extra volume should more than make up for it. What you're describing in July - Sep is more like base building than what your Oct - Jun routine was.

jsirabella said:

I understand that L3 base training can be good and will produce results but in your case this is not the type of result you are looking for. You are looking to raise your FTP. The best way to raise your FTP is through SST/L4 training.

L3 is solid SST. It will produce nice FTP gains if you do somewhat longer rides at that level with progressive weekly loading.

frenchyge said:

Well, I wasn't criticizing your athletic ability, but rather your training plan. I thought that's what you were looking for with this thread. The truth is that 8 months of 4hr/wk just doesn't give you a lot to build on.
Now you're talking. You may feel like you're losing a little bit of top end, but the extra volume should more than make up for it. What you're describing in July - Sep is more like base building than what your Oct - Jun routine was.
L3 is solid SST. It will produce nice FTP gains if you do somewhat longer rides at that level with progressive weekly loading.

Bah - sometimes I really screw up my sarcasm. Sorry frenchyge - what I was trying to imply was that my self-criticism was too harsh. Calling myself a bad athlete while gaining 30% of FTP on 46TSS/d is an oxymoron.

Yes - I was looking for criticism on my suggested training plan. It appeared that everyone was pointing at my L4 gains and telling me to keep doing what's working for me. Why I suggested L3 loading was interestingly enough spurred by the Stephen Seiler website that you brought up in another thread I started and a Lydiard lecture I came across.

The information was suggesting that a L3-centered plan gives "smoother" long-term gains [in an "all-you-can-eat" fashion] rather than the step-up fashion of an L4-centered plan [which must be applied in the right dosage; hence my apprehension to go beyond 46CTL *joke found here*]. I found that my constant L4 work was absolutely brutal on the mind - pain, pain, pain...

Ok - rack up TSS with L3 [~85% of 200W = ~175W]. Increase the watts as PE becomes "noticeable" OR increase as freshness becomes more "apparent"? I suppose this is a trickier issue than a L4 plan, because the watts go up as volume increases [ie. same wattage can now be done 3X20 after many 2X20's]. In the L3 plan - volume is already ballooned - so what indicators would be... "quantifiable" to justify any progression?

Thanks.

Sorry, I misunderstood your intent. It's all good. 🙂

simplyred said:

Ok - rack up TSS with L3 [~85% of 200W = ~175W]. Increase the watts as PE becomes "noticeable" OR increase as freshness becomes more "apparent"? I suppose this is a trickier issue than a L4 plan, because the watts go up as volume increases [ie. same wattage can now be done 3X20 after many 2X20's]. In the L3 plan - volume is already ballooned - so what indicators would be... "quantifiable" to justify any progression?

Honestly, I think a "just ride" approach works just fine for SST within a fairly broad band. As long as you're keeping a mind towards a moderate intensity, I don't think it's terribly important whether you're at 85% of FTP or 91%. Longer rides will naturally fall towards the lower end of the band and you can push a bit harder on shorter rides. I might suggest just going for a certain PE for a while and see if the watts don't eventually start creeping up mysteriously on their own over time. When you notice this trend you can either retest or bump your FTP by 5 watts. Really, the only reason to adjust your FTP at that point is so that you're not overstating your TSS from week to week. On your mean-maximal power chart, you're not going to see big changes in your 20min max power (since you're not going all out for 20min regularly anymore), but you will see improvements in your 2hr-4hr maximal powers. Well, if those numbers are going up then you can bet that the others are too. 🙂

Another option is to do one structured L4 workout every few weeks so you can track progress. As you start to see higher numbers on this workout then that's a cue to increase your FTP.

Just be careful that you're not increasing the load too rapidly. About a 3-5 CTL/wk increase* is a good average progression over several weeks. You can certainly go beyond that for a week or two, but be mindful of any adverse effects and plan a little extra rest if you notice things going awry.

* do a search on "CTL ramp" either here on in the power forum if you have any question how to do this.