I am not going to Boston this weekend

"Roger 2k" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

I tried to run an easy 6 last Sunday, the day after a
23:09 5k and had

some

Quoted message said:

trouble.

<snip>

Roger, I finally got a HRM. I have tried a few max tests of
varying nature and pretty consistently get about 179 - 180
as the highest I can get the ticker going. I haven't tried a
race yet, I imagine I could get it up to 183 - 184, but
still I am a bit disappointed I can't reach crazy levels
like yourself. 😉

I am suprised how high I can remain conversational at,
though. I discovered that my HR averages about 168 in a one
hour training run I do all the time with a friend, in which
we do a lot of talking, although I admit it's the "four
words per breath" variety. It's supposed to be a LT run -
but it's hard to figure out what my proper LT pace is if
it's a variable one can improve... should I trust my
instincts or go with a graph of some sort for training
paces, based on my HR?

cheers,
--
David (in Hamilton, ON) www.allfalldown.org "The most
insecure people are the ones you see, putting other people
down constantly."

"SwStudio" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Roger, I finally got a HRM. I have tried a few max tests
of varying nature and pretty consistently get about 179 -
180 as the highest I can get the ticker going. I haven't
tried a race yet, I imagine I could get it up to 183 -
184, but still I am a bit disappointed I can't reach crazy
levels like yourself. 😉

Well, if I tried a few max tests within a short period of
time, I couldn´t expect to get a true HRmax in any but the
first one (and that only when fully recovered from previous
training/race), but then I´m not you.

Anyway, since you are a well-trained and quite probably a
competitive-minded runner, you´ll need a close, well- paced
3K or 5K race to reach your max - unless you have a personal
coach to shout at you and to urge you on during a test.

BTW was Hadd´s "Warmup, strech, strides, an all-out 800m,
2min pause, an all-out 400m" among the tests you tried?

Quoted message said:

I am suprised how high I can remain conversational at,
though. I discovered that my HR averages about 168 in a
one hour training run I do all the time with a friend, in
which we do a lot of talking, although I admit it's the
"four words per breath" variety.

There is a too much individual variation in the
"conversational threshold" for it to be any guideline
whatsoever. FWIW I can easily keep talking at 94% (of what I
believe I have good reason to assume is my true) HRmax, and
I know better runners who wheeze and gasp for air at 90%.

(This is equally true of the "long, easily flowing sentence"-
level for easy aerobic runs: it´s entirely possibly for
a beginner to run too fast when he uses that as the
sole guide.)

Quoted message said:

It's supposed to be a LT run - but it's hard to figure out
what my proper LT pace is if it's a variable one can
improve... should I trust my instincts or go with a graph
of some sort for training paces, based on my HR?

Judging by your results, you could easily be trusted to go
by your instincts, but, of course, there´s no alternative
for a proper (read: the kind where you´re stuck with
needles) LT test.

OTOH you could try a Conconi test or the test procedure Hadd
employed: ffh.ushadd.htmOpen ↗ which IMHO is
interesting reading.

Anders (who was surprised to find out that it wasn´t
Globaldisc who´d started this thread...)

"SwStudio" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Roger 2k" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

I tried to run an easy 6 last Sunday, the day after a
23:09 5k and had

some

Quoted message said:

trouble.

<snip>

Roger, I finally got a HRM. I have tried a few max tests
of varying nature and pretty consistently get about 179 -
180 as the highest I can get the ticker going. I haven't
tried a race yet, I imagine I could get it up to 183 -
184, but still I am a bit disappointed I can't reach crazy
levels like yourself. 😉

I am suprised how high I can remain conversational at,
though. I discovered that my HR averages about 168 in a
one hour training run I do all the time with a friend, in
which we do a lot of talking, although I admit it's the
"four words per breath" variety. It's supposed to be a LT
run - but it's hard to figure out what my proper LT pace
is if it's a variable one can improve... should I trust my
instincts or go with a graph of some sort for training
paces, based on my HR?

cheers,
--
David (in Hamilton, ON) www.allfalldown.org "The most
insecure people are the ones you see, putting other people
down constantly."

Yes "trust your instincts" if you have the same problem I
had with an HRM, it only slowed me down, but that is what I
got it for anyway.

Without getting into all the details. If I was in better
shape, it would be hard for me to see anything over 200
except at the finish line. Now I can see 200 before the 2
mile of a 5k and still have power left.

-2k

"Roger 2k" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

"SwStudio" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

"Roger 2k" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

I tried to run an easy 6 last Sunday, the day after a
23:09 5k and had

some

Quoted message said:

trouble.

<snip>

Roger, I finally got a HRM. I have tried a few max tests
of varying nature and pretty consistently get about 179
- 180 as the highest I can get the ticker going. I
haven't tried a race yet, I imagine I could get it up to
183 - 184, but still I am a bit disappointed I can't
reach crazy levels like yourself. 😉

I am suprised how high I can remain conversational at,
though. I discovered that my HR averages about 168 in a
one hour training run I do all the time with a friend,
in which we do a lot of talking, although I admit it's
the "four words per breath" variety. It's supposed to be
a LT run - but it's hard to figure out what my proper LT
pace is if it's a variable one can improve... should I
trust my instincts or

go

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

with a graph of some sort for training paces, based on
my HR?

Yes "trust your instincts" if you have the same problem I
had with an HRM, it only slowed me down, but that is what
I got it for anyway.

Thanks, Roger - this is what I thought.

Quoted message said:

Without getting into all the details. If I was in better
shape, it would

be

Quoted message said:

hard for me to see anything over 200 except at the finish
line. Now I can see 200 before the 2 mile of a 5k and
still have power left.

You are a madman!!! 🙂

cheers,
--
David (in Hamilton, ON) www.allfalldown.org "The most
insecure people are the ones you see, putting other people
down constantly."

In article said:

I am suprised how high I can remain conversational at,
though. I discovered that my HR averages about 168 in a
one hour training run I do all the time with a friend,
in which we do a lot of talking, although I admit it's
the "four words per breath" variety. It's supposed to be
a LT run -

An even-paced 1hr run is probably going to be below LT for
most of the distance unless it's an all-out effort.

You're probably running very close to LT -- the "short
phrases conversational" pace is sometimes used to describe
the feel of a tempo run.

FWIW, I consider the term "conversational" to be too
subjective to mean much.

Quoted message said:

but it's hard to figure out what my proper LT pace is if
it's a variable one can improve... should I trust my
instincts or go with a graph of some sort for training
paces, based on my HR?

For tempo runs, best to rely on your instincts. A good pace
for a tempo run will depend on the length of the run. For
example, Sam's favourite LT workout is performed at 10k race
pace, but you obviously can't do that for a 1hr run.

For easy training runs, I think most people develop good
instincts over time for that too. The Daniels tables
(panix.comvdot.htmlOpen ↗) give a training
pace of 7:23 for me, Bob Glovers recommendations based on 5k
pace give a similar result. Sometimes I go faster than this,
sometimes slower (plus or minus about 20 seconds per mile)
depending on terrain and how I feel.

I like to keep a clear "no mans land" between 7 and 6
minutes per mile -- I figure if I can run faster than 7, I
should be able to do 6 or close to it. It's harder to
stick to such guidelines with long hard runs, but my
approach is to simply avoid a continuous long fast run
unless it's a race.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

For tempo runs, best to rely on your instincts. A good
pace for a tempo

run

Quoted message said:

will depend on the length of the run. For example, Sam's
favourite LT

workout

Quoted message said:

is performed at 10k race pace, but you obviously can't do
that for a 1hr

run.

Quoted message said:

For easy training runs, I think most people develop good
instincts over

time

Quoted message said:

for that too. The Daniels tables
(panix.comvdot.htmlOpen ↗) give a training
pace of 7:23 for me, Bob Glovers recommendations based on

5k

Quoted message said:

pace give a similar result. Sometimes I go faster than
this, sometimes

slower

Quoted message said:

(plus or minus about 20 seconds per mile) depending on
terrain and how I

feel.

Quoted message said:

I like to keep a clear "no mans land" between 7 and 6
minutes per mile --

I

Quoted message said:

figure if I can run faster than 7, I should be able to do
6 or close to

it.

Quoted message said:

It's harder to stick to such guidelines with long hard
runs, but my

approach is

Quoted message said:

to simply avoid a continuous long fast run unless
it's a race.

Thanks for the opinions and insights - I think I certainly
spend too much time running relatively fast. The HRM was
purchased in an attempt to keep me 'honest', and to gauge
overtraining more efficiently, as I plan on stepping up my
training quite a bit over the next while. This can't be done
if I am running hard all the time!

cheers,
--
David (in Hamilton, ON) www.allfalldown.org "The most
insecure people are the ones you see, putting other people
down constantly."

In article said:

Thanks for the opinions and insights - I think I certainly
spend too much time running relatively fast. The HRM was
purchased in an attempt to keep me 'honest', and to gauge
overtraining more efficiently, as I plan on stepping up my
training quite a bit over the next while. This can't be
done if I am running hard all the time!

To some extent this should be self-regulating -- you simply
will not feel like running fast all the time if you're doing
over 60 miles per week. The heart rate monitor is nice to
have all the same -- there have been times when I've pushed
a training run too hard, and *really* regretted it on the
next days speed workout. There is an advantage to taking it
easy on the "easy" runs.

If slowing down causes "boredom" problems, the best remedy
IMO is to throw in some strides or some light fartlek --
these are fun and don't tire you out too much.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

David, my max is about 174 yet I can converse happily at
165. Not that it gets me anywhere particularly fast, tho! J
ps how are you feeling? "SwStudio"
<[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Roger 2k" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

I tried to run an easy 6 last Sunday, the day after a
23:09 5k and had

some

Quoted message said:

trouble.

<snip>

Roger, I finally got a HRM. I have tried a few max tests
of varying nature and pretty consistently get about 179 -
180 as the highest I can get the ticker going. I haven't
tried a race yet, I imagine I could get it up to 183 -
184, but still I am a bit disappointed I can't reach crazy
levels like yourself. 😉

I am suprised how high I can remain conversational at,
though. I discovered that my HR averages about 168 in a
one hour training run I do all the time with a friend, in
which we do a lot of talking, although I admit it's the
"four words per breath" variety. It's supposed to be a LT
run - but it's hard to figure out what my proper LT pace
is if it's a variable one can improve... should I trust my
instincts or go with a graph of some sort for training
paces, based on my HR?

cheers,
--
David (in Hamilton, ON) www.allfalldown.org "The most
insecure people are the ones you see, putting other people
down constantly."

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

SwStudio said:

Thanks for the opinions and insights - I think I
certainly spend too

much

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

time running relatively fast. The HRM was purchased in
an attempt to keep me 'honest', and to gauge
overtraining more efficiently, as I plan on stepping up
my training quite a bit over the next while. This can't

be

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

done if I am running hard all the time!

To some extent this should be self-regulating -- you
simply will not feel

like

Quoted message said:

running fast all the time if you're doing over 60 miles
per week. The

heart

Quoted message said:

rate monitor is nice to have all the same -- there have
been times when

I've

Quoted message said:

pushed a training run too hard, and *really* regretted it
on the next days speed workout. There is an advantage to
taking it easy on the "easy" runs.

I know what you mean. It's worth noting that I've tried the
"higher mileage w/higher percentage of slower, easy runs
"style, as well as the "lower mileage w/higher percentage of
quality runs" style, and find not much difference in terms
of results.

Obviously if I had a marathon in mind things would be
different, but in terms of 5k up to ½ marathons I can do
well on 30 miles a week, but it's all lactate work, or
higher. I seem to get injured less when I run less, almost
regardless of quality. It's not the speed that does me in
(injury-wise, anyway), it's the pounding of endless long
slow runs.

Quoted message said:

If slowing down causes "boredom" problems, the best remedy
IMO is to throw in some strides or some light fartlek --
these are fun and don't tire you

out

Quoted message said:

too much.

I never find running boring, although sometimes it's
admittedly the cause of my stress, not the reliever of it!
😉

cheers,
--
David (in Hamilton, ON) www.allfalldown.org "The most
insecure people are the ones you see, putting other people
down constantly."

"Jonathan Sydenham" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

David, my max is about 174 yet I can converse happily at
165. Not that it gets me anywhere particularly fast, tho!

Yeah, I'm starting to notice that it's not that strange. I
would have never guessed.

Quoted message said:

ps how are you feeling?

Good - thanks for asking. I am running a hilly 15k race on
April 25 and a 10k on May 2, so right back in the swing of
things. I can't help jumping right back into it, since it's
already the season!

I feel strong. I believe in my training and hope to have
some good performances in the next two months.

cheers,
--
David (in Hamilton, ON) www.allfalldown.org "The most
insecure people are the ones you see, putting other people
down constantly."

"SwStudio" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Roger 2k" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

I tried to run an easy 6 last Sunday, the day after a
23:09 5k and had

some

Quoted message said:

trouble.

<snip>

Roger, I finally got a HRM. I have tried a few max tests
of varying nature and pretty consistently get about 179 -
180 as the highest I can get the ticker going. I haven't
tried a race yet, I imagine I could get it up to 183 -
184, but still I am a bit disappointed I can't reach crazy
levels like yourself. 😉

I am suprised how high I can remain conversational at,
though. I discovered that my HR averages about 168 in a
one hour training run I do all the time with a friend, in
which we do a lot of talking, although I admit it's the
"four words per breath" variety. It's supposed to be a LT
run - but it's hard to figure out what my proper LT pace
is if it's a variable one can improve... should I trust my
instincts or go with a graph of some sort for training
paces, based on my HR?

One estimate of LT pace is the pace you can maintain
for one hour, all out. Another estimate is to use 10K
pace. Obviously for many, you can run a 10K in under
an hour so there is a disconnect in most people's
minds, but at the same time there really is not a
definitive "LT". There are at least 7 commonly
accepted methods of determining LT from blood lactate
levels. Some use a mathematical model (called Dmax)
that looks at the slope of the curve; others use 4
mmol/L (OBLA or Onset of Blood Lactate Accumulation--
although that is a bit of a misnomer as well). Still
others use a 1 mmol/L rise above exercise baseline.
And so on. The key thing to remember is that they ALL
correlated pretty well with performance. Ed Coyle at
UT-Austin published a paper using cyclists where he
determined LT using these 7 methods and all
correlated well (r=~0.90) with a 40K TT performance
(about an hour)

My guess is that your 4 words per breath is pretty close
to that pace. I notice that when our group starts to pick
up the pace and it starts to get quiet that we are in
that range.

Quoted message said:

cheers,
--
David (in Hamilton, ON) www.allfalldown.org "The most
insecure people are the ones you see, putting other people
down constantly."

"Anders Lustig" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"SwStudio" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

OTOH you could try a Conconi test or the test procedure
Hadd employed: ffh.ushadd.htmOpen ↗ which IMHO is
interesting reading.

Anders (who was surprised to find out that it wasn´t
Globaldisc who´d started this thread...)

Sorry, but Conconi is worthless. Even in the original paper
half the people did not show this supposed deflection point
in HR. Subsequent studies have had the same problems.
AFAIAC, Conconi is useless.

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

SwStudio said:

I am suprised how high I can remain conversational at,
though. I discovered that my HR averages about 168 in a
one hour training run I do all the time with a friend,
in which we do a lot of talking, although I admit it's
the "four words per breath" variety. It's supposed to be
a LT run -

An even-paced 1hr run is probably going to be below LT for
most of the

distance

Quoted message said:

unless it's an all-out effort.

You're probably running very close to LT -- the
"short phrases

conversational"

Quoted message said:

pace is sometimes used to describe the feel of a
tempo run.

FWIW, I consider the term "conversational" to be too
subjective to mean

much.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

but it's hard to figure out what my proper LT pace is if
it's a variable one can improve... should I trust my
instincts or

go

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

with a graph of some sort for training paces, based on
my HR?

For tempo runs, best to rely on your instincts. A good
pace for a tempo

run

Quoted message said:

will depend on the length of the run. For example, Sam's
favourite LT

workout

Quoted message said:

is performed at 10k race pace, but you obviously can't do
that for a 1hr

run.

Not continuous running, but if you really wanted to
(and I have tried this running--much easier to do
cycling) you could go to 3x20min with 5 min breaks and
get a lot of work in! (For the record, I do not
recommend this as it really is hard to do and will
probably leave you spent for several days.

Quoted message said:

For easy training runs, I think most people develop good
instincts over

time

Quoted message said:

for that too. The Daniels tables
(panix.comvdot.htmlOpen ↗) give a training
pace of 7:23 for me, Bob Glovers recommendations based on

5k

Quoted message said:

pace give a similar result. Sometimes I go faster than
this, sometimes

slower

Quoted message said:

(plus or minus about 20 seconds per mile) depending on
terrain and how I

feel.

Quoted message said:

I like to keep a clear "no mans land" between 7 and 6
minutes per mile --

I

Quoted message said:

figure if I can run faster than 7, I should be able to do
6 or close to

it.

Quoted message said:

It's harder to stick to such guidelines with long hard
runs, but my

approach is

Quoted message said:

to simply avoid a continuous long fast run unless
it's a race.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

"SwStudio" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

For tempo runs, best to rely on your instincts. A good
pace for a tempo

run

Quoted message said:

will depend on the length of the run. For example, Sam's
favourite LT

workout

Quoted message said:

is performed at 10k race pace, but you obviously can't
do that for a 1hr

run.

Quoted message said:

For easy training runs, I think most people develop good
instincts over

time

Quoted message said:

for that too. The Daniels tables

(panix.comvdot.htmlOpen ↗)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

give a training pace of 7:23 for me, Bob Glovers
recommendations based

on

Quoted message said:

5k

Quoted message said:

pace give a similar result. Sometimes I go faster than
this, sometimes

slower

Quoted message said:

(plus or minus about 20 seconds per mile) depending on
terrain and how I

feel.

Quoted message said:

I like to keep a clear "no mans land" between 7 and 6
minutes per

mile --

Quoted message said:

I

Quoted message said:

figure if I can run faster than 7, I should be able to
do 6 or close to

it.

Quoted message said:

It's harder to stick to such guidelines with long hard
runs, but my

approach is

Quoted message said:

to simply avoid a continuous long fast run unless it's
a race.

Thanks for the opinions and insights - I think I certainly
spend too much time running relatively fast. The HRM was
purchased in an attempt to keep me 'honest', and to gauge
overtraining more efficiently, as I plan on stepping up my
training quite a bit over the next while. This can't be
done if I am running hard all the time!

cheers,
--
David (in Hamilton, ON) www.allfalldown.org "The most
insecure people are the ones you see, putting other people
down constantly."

A big factor in overtraining is underrecovery. There are
studies of runners doing 200 miles per week and not
suffering from OT syndrome. Why? A guess is that they were
sufficiently recovering between each run. They had no
additional stress in their lives.

That said, you should not run "hard" all the time.

We'll miss you 2k, but then again we miss flaming
hemoroids too...

"Roger 2k" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I tried to run an easy 6 last Sunday, the day after a
23:09 5k and had some trouble.

After that, I tried to run a half mile flat out and only
managed a 3:15.

I got to thinking about what the people I ran with Sunday
said and how I felt and then realized if I ended up
injured, it would really be a bad idea.

So, instead, I am going to run a 4 mile in town this
weekend. I think it will be more fun to run a short race
legitimately than a long one as a Bandit.

Plus, I now have a docs appointment for Wednesday morning
and there is no way I could make it back in time if I
drove to Boston.

Boston, maybe some other time, maybe never, I just don't
know right now.

Thanks, -2k

I'm not going to Boston this weekend either, but you don't
see me whining for 6 paragraphs about it. Toughen up,
Buttercup.

"Sam" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

OTOH you could try a Conconi test or the test procedure
Hadd employed: ffh.ushadd.htmOpen ↗ which IMHO is
interesting reading.

Quoted message said:

Sorry, but Conconi is worthless. Even in the original
paper half the people did not show this supposed
deflection point in HR. Subsequent studies have had the
same problems. AFAIAC, Conconi is useless.

For the people whose graphs won´t show a deflection point
the Conconi test is obviously worthless - but what about the
other half? Have the studies shown it to be less reliable
than other LT tests (of which there, IIRC, there isn´t a
single "100%c scientifically proven" yet?)?

Anders

"Sam" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

One estimate of LT pace is the pace you can maintain
for one hour, all out. Another estimate is to use
10K pace. Obviously for many, you can run a 10K in
under an hour so there is a disconnect in most
people's minds, but at the same time there really is
not a definitive "LT".

Peter Janssen (author of "Lactate Threshold Training"😉
gives your _HR_ - not that I think one cannot use the
same percentages of pace as well - at LT as 105% of your
HR at 10K pace or 98% at HM pace (and, naturally, 100% at
1hr pace).

Anders

the winds here never got below 25 m.p.h. seems like never.
it snap a larger than most fiberglass rod on a 6 person
family tent for weight lifting area I have,. 2 days latter
the winds are still. a tornado up north. is up to 70 degrees
and a 30 degrees tonight. warm front hit by cold front.
interesting to see what well go to boston at race time. duck
tape and rope to tree. and no major limb breaks butt trees
are twisted funny shapes.... from ice storm trees are bare
still and looks like the dark side..or ages are here in
wooda county north.whoooooooeeeee. winds noice still
yelling............