Hydrogen proposal

First, its not legalezze, blah blah blah, plain and simple - its the law now plain and simple. No
more argument, 1 HP, 20 MPH and it will be allowed on the bike path, just like my 24 MPH shockproof.

Who cares where the power comes from, physics is physics. Would you apply motorcycle or auto laws to
electric wheelchairs? If you put Lance Armstrong on the back of your tandem and stop pedaling, does
that make it a motor cycle? You have to pick a number.

The average rider puts out around 100-200 watts, less than the average electric boost motor. A
motorcycle requires 3,750 watts to legally (much less practically) drive on the interstate. So a
motorcycle is a minimum of 20 times more powerful. The average motorcycle puts out around 50 HP now,
200 times more than the average cyclist, and capable of building up 1,000 times more crash energy.
0-1HP = "bike" regulated as a consumer product 1-5 = "scooter" >5 = "motorcycle" both regulated by
NTHASA. Stack that incredibly complex system against the tax code and decide which to fight.

As to noise, how much noise something makes isn't all that related to horsepower. Electric bikes
make no more noise than deraillures. A detuned straight pipe Harley may make 100 times more noise
than a Honda Goldwing with the same size engine. You could design a motorcycle that expends 100HP
into making noise and 1 HP of propulsion, or muffle a motorcycle until it made nearly no noise.

Some of us are looking beyond our personal Sunday morning rides and towards expanding ultralight
hyper efficient vehicles in general, regardless of power source. A 200 watt fuel cell vehicle would
get thousands of miles per "gallon" (30,000 kcal). I think being run down by guys like me is a huge
disincentive to the average aspiring cyclist. I would love to cycle in a world where instead of
passing nearly everyone, I pass nearly noone.

"Seth Jayson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Motor = Motor Cycle = Cycle

Motor + Cylce = Motorcycle

Y'all congressmen can spare me the legaleeeze. You start putting motors on bicycles, and you
have motorcycles, plain and simple. Then the arguments begin about how much motor it takes
before it's no longer a bike. Next the arguments will begin about whether or not it's allowed on
the bike path.

How about that ear-splitting, 2-cycle motorized scooter with the weedwhipper engine that blows out
more particulates than a car? Small engine, though. Guess it's still a bicycle.

This seems a bit kooky to me.

"I only use it to go uphill"

I feel the same way about that nice big Hummer SUV I just bought. Five miles to the gallon, but I
only use it, I swear, when I want to go up hills. Or other times when I don't feel like
pedalling. 😉

Where does it end? (Answer, I guess: "wherever the lobbiests with the deepest pockets want it to
end..."😉

I have been known to go like a bat out of hell as well...especially when a car is chasing me.

"GeoB" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Many riders can break 750 watts in a sprint.

Shoot, I can break all kinds of things in a sprint.

Robert Haston said:

A detuned straight pipe Harley may make 100 times more noise than a Honda Goldwing with the same
size engine.

Tell me about it. I followed that one for about sixty miles on I-80 through the Sierras last
September. It took another sixty to get my hearing back...

Dave Larrington - legslarry.crosswinds.netlegslarry.crosswinds.netOpen ↗
===========================================================
Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
bhpc.org.ukbhpc.org.ukOpen ↗
===========================================================

You want loud...I had a MX5 32cc rebored to 41cc that my neighbours did a petition to have me remove
from my DF. When I had it wide open it sounded like a combination of a cat being dragged on gravel
by the tail and a Husquavarna Chainsaw on steroids. My wife held up a Micro-cassette tape recorder
and recorded my MX5 3 city blocks away.

After the petition I donated the DF with 2 cycle motor to a Local Coven of Witches for their annual
auction to raise $ to buy new brooms. Heard it ended up at someones summer cottage...which would be
a good place to use it (away from people).
----------------------------------------------------
"(Pete Cresswell)" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

RE/

Quoted message said:

How about that ear-splitting, 2-cycle motorized scooter with the weedwhipper engine that blows
out more particulates than a car? Small

Probably a bicycle if their PR flaks pay off (Oops, I mean make campaign contributions to...) the
right people.

We've got them around here - kids riding on the streets and they are LOUD.
-----------------------
PeteCresswell

And before I get any hate mail about how I'm an insensitive Git towards Witches (Wiccans), re: my
line of a Coven full of Witches or was that an Oven full of [censored], the Coven (did) use some of the
$ to buy new brooms. "Praise Be"
--------------------------
"Joshua Goldberg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

You want loud...I had a MX5 32cc rebored to 41cc that my neighbours did a petition to have me
remove from my DF. When I had it wide open it sounded like a combination of a cat being

dragged

Quoted message said:

on gravel by the tail and a Husquavarna Chainsaw on steroids. My wife held up a Micro-cassette
tape recorder and recorded my MX5 3 city blocks away.

After the petition I donated the DF with 2 cycle motor to a Local Coven of Witches for their
annual auction to raise $ to buy new brooms. Heard it ended up at someones summer cottage...which
would be a good place to use

it

Quoted message said:

(away from people).
----------------------------------------------------
"(Pete Cresswell)" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

RE/

Quoted message said:

How about that ear-splitting, 2-cycle motorized scooter with the weedwhipper engine that blows
out more particulates than a car? Small

Probably a bicycle if their PR flaks pay off (Oops, I mean make campaign contributions to...)
the right people.

We've got them around here - kids riding on the streets and they are

LOUD.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

-----------------------
PeteCresswell

As I hope my final sentence made clear, I wasn't seriously suggesting mopeds as answering the demand for power-assisted bikes. I cited the moped to suggest that the solution to a putative energy crisis could be lower fuel consumption, rather than tanker-loads of liquid hydrogen.

There used to be a French contraption called the Velo-Solex which was more of a power-assisted bike - I don't think it required a license or insurance, either. I seem to recall that rather than using the motor solely as uphill assistance, riders of these would *only* pedal when going uphill.

Here in the UK, a man called Clive Sinclair (who was very successful in former days selling home computers, digital watches and calculators) has twice tried to market power/pedal hybrids. As far as I know the results have been dismal.

Chris

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Joshua Goldberg
[B]Chris I think these companies DO get the point, you just understand it. The suggestion that cyclists
should just get a Moped proves you don't get
it.When you use a Moped, you don't pedal. The pedals are there to use to pedal to a gas station and
to pedal start the under 50cc motor. Mopeds (in most countries) fall under the same laws as
Motorcycles and cars...power-assists don't. I don't pay for parking, I don't pay for a licence,
for insurance, for registration and I don't have to do a written and riding test. I don't support
Iraq when I use an E-motor assist and the thing you are missing here is that a cyclist is a pedal
pusher 1st and uses the motor only to (assist). Mopeds are NOT designed to Assist pedalling.
Maybe (you) see people pedalling their Mopeds, but I have never heard of anyone doing it.

Quoted message said:

"Chris Walker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Whenever I read about companies trying to introduce power-assisted bikes, I always think "They
just don't get the point".

People who ride bikes do so because they enjoy cycling (at least, this is so in the affluent
parts of the world where they try to sell these hybrids). Those who want a power-assisted bike
can already buy a moped.

Actually, if everybody rode mopeds we'd save a lot of energy without recourse to exotic plans to
ship liquid hydrogen around the world. Personally, I wouldn't be seen dead on one, so I'll keep
on pedalling.

Chris [/B]

...you must have one hellava set of legs, Legs!

Quoted message said:

Tell me about it. I followed that one for about sixty miles on I-80 through the Sierras last
September. It took another sixty to get my hearing back...

Dave Larrington - legslarry.crosswinds.netlegslarry.crosswinds.netOpen ↗
===========================================================
Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
bhpc.org.ukbhpc.org.ukOpen ↗
===========================================================

"ChrisW" skrev...

Quoted message said:

There used to be a French contraption called the Velo-Solex which was more of a power-assisted
bike - I don't think it required a license or insurance, either. I seem to recall that rather than
using the motor solely as uphill assistance, riders of these would *only* pedal when going uphill.

It did require a license and insurance in Denmark as far back as 1958 and today its probably classed
as a moped. You can in fact still buy them. The motor sits in front and transfers power to the wheel
via a roller. The first ones were just motorkits, that you mounted on your bike. And I think they
would have to pedal uphill if they wanted to get up it.

Teknik:

Data: (S3800) Two-stroke, frontwheeldrive, direct drive on the front tire.

Motor:49cc.

Max. rev. 4000 rev/min.

Max. hp. 0,85 at 2500 rev/m.

From model 1700 centrifugalclutch.

Noiselevel: 72-80 db.

Fueleconomy: 100 km per tankfull. (11/4 liter).

Weight: 24 kg.

Nice fueleconomy but new mopeds/scooters pollute like hell because they are speedlimited AFAIK.

Mikael

Solex They are made in Poland now, the company kept dying and being reincarnated and moved to a new
country. Batavus did their own version of the Solex in the 1970s. The Solex used lots of Oil and the
oil and exhaust would come back at the rider. You pedal to start...7 kph I believe before the Solex
kicked in. It was a heavy motor and a special front wheel had to be used. Warp speed was around 17
mph. There are annual races in Holland for Solex and Solex cycle clubs still exist. A company in
Utah is importing them now for the USA and they are are an improved version over the 80s
version...but they still go slow and they still leak oil. I sell a unit based on the Solex
model...but mine is 24V Electric and is $1K below a Solex cost....(shameless advertising)

"Mikael Seierup" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"ChrisW" skrev...

Quoted message said:

There used to be a French contraption called the Velo-Solex which was more of a power-assisted
bike - I don't think it required a license or insurance, either. I seem to recall that rather
than using the motor solely as uphill assistance, riders of these would *only* pedal when going
uphill.

It did require a license and insurance in Denmark as far back as 1958 and today its probably
classed as a moped. You can in fact still buy them. The motor sits in front and transfers power to
the wheel via a roller. The first ones were just motorkits, that you mounted on your bike. And I
think they would have to pedal uphill if they wanted to get up it.

Teknik:

Data: (S3800) Two-stroke, frontwheeldrive, direct drive on the front tire.

Motor:49cc.

Max. rev. 4000 rev/min.

Max. hp. 0,85 at 2500 rev/m.

From model 1700 centrifugalclutch.

Noiselevel: 72-80 db.

Fueleconomy: 100 km per tankfull. (11/4 liter).

Weight: 24 kg.

Nice fueleconomy but new mopeds/scooters pollute like hell because they are speedlimited AFAIK.

Mikael

I reviewed the PDF file on this act and what I read talks about electric power only and does not
talk about internal combustion. Is this accurate?

Thanks Gary

"Robert Haston" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

First, its not legalezze, blah blah blah, plain and simple - its the law now plain and simple. No
more argument, 1 HP, 20 MPH and it will be allowed on the bike path, just like my 24 MPH
shockproof.

Who cares where the power comes from, physics is physics. Would you apply motorcycle or auto laws
to electric wheelchairs? If you put Lance Armstrong on the back of your tandem and stop pedaling,
does that make it a motor cycle? You have to pick a number.

The average rider puts out around 100-200 watts, less than the average electric boost motor. A
motorcycle requires 3,750 watts to legally (much less practically) drive on the interstate. So a
motorcycle is a minimum of 20 times more powerful. The average motorcycle puts out around 50 HP
now, 200 times more than the average cyclist, and capable of building up 1,000 times more crash
energy. 0-1HP = "bike" regulated as a consumer product 1-5 = "scooter" >5 = "motorcycle" both
regulated by NTHASA. Stack that incredibly complex system against the tax code and decide which
to fight.

As to noise, how much noise something makes isn't all that related to horsepower. Electric bikes
make no more noise than deraillures. A detuned straight pipe Harley may make 100 times more noise
than a Honda Goldwing with the same size engine. You could design a motorcycle that expends 100HP
into making noise and 1 HP of propulsion, or muffle a motorcycle until it made nearly no noise.

Some of us are looking beyond our personal Sunday morning rides and towards expanding ultralight
hyper efficient vehicles in general, regardless of power source. A 200 watt fuel cell vehicle
would get thousands of miles per "gallon" (30,000 kcal). I think being run down by guys like me is
a huge disincentive to the average aspiring cyclist. I would love to cycle in a world where
instead of passing nearly everyone, I pass nearly noone.

"Seth Jayson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Motor = Motor Cycle = Cycle

Motor + Cylce = Motorcycle

Y'all congressmen can spare me the legaleeeze. You start putting motors on bicycles, and you
have motorcycles, plain and simple. Then the arguments begin about how much motor it takes
before it's no longer a bike. Next the arguments will begin about whether or not it's allowed on
the bike path.

How about that ear-splitting, 2-cycle motorized scooter with the weedwhipper engine that blows
out more particulates than a car? Small engine, though. Guess it's still a bicycle.

This seems a bit kooky to me.

"I only use it to go uphill"

I feel the same way about that nice big Hummer SUV I just bought. Five miles to the gallon, but
I only use it, I swear, when I want to go up hills. Or other times when I don't feel like
pedalling. 😉

Where does it end? (Answer, I guess: "wherever the lobbiests with the deepest pockets want it to
end..."😉

Quoted message said:

Actually the word "moped" refers to motorcycles with pedals,

I believe the mo-ped came about because of the way certain laws were written, to exempt them. Same
as the tad-pole trike cars like the Morgan in GB in past generations. Owners got a giant tax break
on three wheels because it was considered a motorcycle (Ya'll correct me if I am wrong). I am
thinking the mo-ped didn't require registration er sumthin. IIRC in Calif first it didn't need to be
registered, then it did, then it did but you didn't need a license.

Quoted message said:

but I think the word meaning has shifted to include small motorcycles without pedals.

The industry rangled another exclusion, since mopeds had an exclusion, but nobody pedaled (I did,
when starting off or going up hill but nobody asked me). They created a class of motorcycle that had
the same basic hp and performance as mo-peds but had no pedals. Thus the name slid over to encompass
them also.

I usta fix things things cuz I wuz a motorcycle mechanic back in them days of yore. Nice lady came
to me one day, her lil Honda w/o pedals had lost all of its power. She seemed like an elegant and
sophisticated (and beautiful) lady. I was surprised that she rode a scooter-thing. She was a
missionary to Russia. Anyway, I discerned (discerning wuz my job, ya unnerstan) that her exhaust
pipe wuz carboned closed. I tole her it would cost $75 for a new one (my cost). Noting the shocked
look on her face, I said I'd see if I could fix this one. After some head scratching, I loaded my
wood stove full of wood, and crammed the pipe in there, with an end sticking up the chimney, and an
end by the combustion air intake. I fired that stove up real hot, and let it burn itself out. The
next day I took the pipe out, shook a few flakes out, and it weighed 1/2 what it had before! Bike
had twice the power too, but that's not saying much.

Dave Larrington said:

Robert Haston said:

A detuned straight pipe Harley may make 100 times more noise than a Honda Goldwing with the same
size engine.

Tell me about it. I followed that one for about sixty miles on I-80 through the Sierras last
September. It took another sixty to get my hearing back...

I worked around a steel contractor who was using a 450 Ton crawler crane with a CAT V-12 and
straight pipes. Every time the engine was powered up for a pick [1], the ground would shake.

[1] Lifting of an object with a crane

Tom Sherman - Various HPV's Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)

GeoB said:

the tadpole trike cars like the Morgan in GB in past generations. Owners got a giant tax break on
three wheels because it was considered a motorcycle

They still do, though there aren't many made these days.

Back some twenty-five years ago, a "moped" over here was a motorcycle which had pedals, an engine
below 50cc and a restrictor which wouldn't let it run over 30 mph, IIRC. These could legally be
ridden by sixteen year olds. Natch the first thing any self-respecting 16 year old did was to remove
the rolled-up sock from the inlet manifold and find themselves with a machine capable of 60 or more
from which they would launch themselves into the scenery with depressing regularity. These days it's
much the same, save that they don't have pedals any more.

Dave Larrington - legslarry.crosswinds.netlegslarry.crosswinds.netOpen ↗
===========================================================
Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
bhpc.org.ukbhpc.org.ukOpen ↗
===========================================================

(GeoB) said:

Quoted message said:

Many riders can break 750 watts in a sprint.

Shoot, I can break all kinds of things in a sprint.

i break wind if i try to sprint.

I've been there, too, Tom. Quite an experience.

Cars, on the other hand, seem to put out most of their noise from tires, not engines. I'd forgotten
how loud then can be until I started training the new pup alongside 45MPH traffic.

Tom Sherman <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I worked around a steel contractor who was using a 450 Ton crawler crane with a CAT V-12 and
straight pipes. Every time the engine was powered up for a pick [1], the ground would shake.

Tom Sherman - Various HPV's

Michael Perry said:

Cars, on the other hand, seem to put out most of their noise from tires, not engines.

Mostly, except for the boy racers with big pipes or the ones with Stereos of Mass Destruction.
Trucks too, especially on German roads. You can hear a peculiar high-pitched whine from trucks a
good mile away from my in-laws place on a quiet night.

I believe most of the noise made by airliners landing is aerodynamic in origin these days too.
Except Concorde, natch.

Dave Larrington - legslarry.crosswinds.netlegslarry.crosswinds.netOpen ↗
===========================================================
Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
bhpc.org.ukbhpc.org.ukOpen ↗
===========================================================

Pieter Litchfield <[email hidden]> wrote:
: Gosh - I'm gonna have to stop training so I will generate less than 750 watts with my massive
: quads......

Just don't tell the authorities. And if there is any trouble, you can pay for independent 3rd party
testing where you are found only to produce 734 watts.

--
Risto Varanka | helsinki.fi~rvarankaOpen ↗ varis at no spam please iki fi

Quoted message said:

First, its not legalezze, blah blah blah, plain and simple - its the law now plain and simple. >

The Law isn't legaleeze? What laws are you reading? Laws provide some of the most illogical
arguments known to mankind. (This newsgroup provides a good number too.)

If you put Lance Armstrong

Quoted message said:

on the back of your tandem and stop pedaling, does that make it a motor cycle?

Yes. If it's an android and it's powered by electricity or gas. Come on, are you really saying that
a person is the same thing as a motor?

Stack that

Quoted message said:

incredibly complex system against the tax code and decide which to fight.

Complexity isn't the issue. The issue is: Why should paths that are set aside for non-motorized
transport be polluted by motorized transport? No matter how you and the lawmakers slice it, a small
gas or electric motor is still a motor. Where do we draw the line on the motor? AT ZERO! You power
it with your body, or it stays off the bike lanes. There are millions of miles of road already
devoted to motorized transport. Take your motors there.

Quoted message said:

As to noise, how much noise something makes isn't all that related to horsepower. Electric bikes
make no more noise than deraillures.

Dude, noise is only one bad side effect of certain motors. Pollution is the main one. (And don't try
to say electric bikes don't pollute. If you plug it in your wall, it's polluting. You just might not
have to smell the smoke.)

Quoted message said:

Some of us are looking beyond our personal Sunday morning rides and towards expanding ultralight
hyper efficient vehicles in general, regardless of power source.

Good for you. Take them out on the roads. Leave the bike paths alone.

[email hidden] (Gary Truax) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I reviewed the PDF file on this act and what I read talks about electric power only and does not
talk about internal combustion. Is this accurate?

Thanks Gary

Me too, Gary. I've not heard anything about this including any ICE engines. It also does not include
any electric vehicle except bikes.

BTW, this moved assisted bikes from the jurisdition of HHTSA to the jurisdition of the Consumer
Product Safety Commision. Unless I'm misunderstanding something here, that doesn't make it legally
binding on states to follow.

A BILL To amend the Consumer Product Safety Act to provide that low-speed electric bicycles are
consumer products subject to such Act. Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of
the United States of America in Congress assembled, SECTION 1. CONSUMER PRODUCT SAFETY ACT. The
Consumer Product Safety Act (15 U.S.C. 2051 et seq.) is amended by adding at the end the following:
LOW-SPEED ELECTRIC BICYCLES SEC. 38. (a) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, low-speed
electric bicycles are consumer products within the meaning of section
3(a)(1) and shall be subject to the Commission regulations published at section 1500.18(a)(12) and
part 1512 of title 16, Code of Federal Regulations.
(b) For the purpose of this section, the term `low-speed electric bicycle' means a two- or
three-wheeled vehicle with fully operable pedals and an electric motor of less than 750 watts (1
h.p.), whose maximum speed on a paved level surface, when powered solely by such a motor while
ridden by an operator who weighs 170 pounds, is less than 20 mph.
(c) To further protect the safety of consumers who ride low-speed electric bicycles, the Commission
may promulgate new or amended requirements applicable to such vehicles as necessary and
appropriate.
(d) This section shall supersede any State law or requirement with respect to low-speed electric
bicycles to the extent that such State law or requirement is more stringent than the Federal law
or requirements referred to in subsection (a).'. SEC. 2. MOTOR VEHICLE SAFETY STANDARDS. For
purposes of motor vehicle safety standards issued and enforced pursuant to chapter 301 of title
49, United States Code, a low-speed electric bicycle (as defined in section 38(b) of the
Consumer Product Safety Act) shall not be considered a motor vehicle as defined by section
30102(6) of title 49, United States Code. Union Calendar No. 4 107th CONGRESS 1st Session
e. R. 727

Michael,

Thank you for your post.

I do have a question for those of you that have power assist, will the electric style work in a very
hilly area? I would continue to pedal on the long or extremely steep hills but would be concerned
about overheating. One hill to work (this is where I would want to ride) is about .7 of a mile long
and has an incline of probably close to 10% on average. Just guessing, I have about 800 to 1000 feet
of climbing in the 5.5 miles to work.

Thanks in advance for your replies.

Gary