Hydrate or Die... or

Quoted message said:

Here's a perspective that took a while to surface:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/14/opinion/14thu2.html?

I recall one long, hot, humid ride when I was religiously drinking
water, but feeling absolutely terrible. My stomach felt full and
sloshy, but I still felt thirsty; and yet water tasted terrible.

I stopped at a fast food joint and got some salt packets. It was
somehow what I needed. After that experience, I began carrying some of
those packets in my bike bag, and adding one or two to a water bottle.

Later, someone told me that salt substitute is a better choice, because
it contains a better balance of sodium and potassium. You can get it
at any pharmacy. That's my fix for long hot rides these days.

That and V-8 Juice.

- Frank Krygowski

Quoted message said:

Later, someone told me that salt substitute is a better choice, because
it contains a better balance of sodium and potassium. You can get it
at any pharmacy. That's my fix for long hot rides these days.

The answer to low sodium is to replace the sodium. At least some of
the salt replacements, such as NoSalt and NuSalt, contain no sodium.
All of them contain mostly potasium salts. Potasium loss during
exercise has never been shown to be a problem. Although unlikely, it
is possible to kill yourself by taking too much oral potasium. For a
humorous yet factual take on the last point see:

http://www.macrobiotic.org/SaltSubDanger.htm

Jim Smith said:

The answer to low sodium is to replace the sodium. At least some of
the salt replacements, such as NoSalt and NuSalt, contain no sodium.
All of them contain mostly potasium salts. Potasium loss during
exercise has never been shown to be a problem.

Well, potassium loss can contribute to muscle cramps:
http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/foodnut/09355.html

Although unlikely, it

Quoted message said:

is possible to kill yourself by taking too much oral potasium. For a
humorous yet factual take on the last point see:

http://www.macrobiotic.org/SaltSubDanger.htm

Yup- and that's why potassium-containing IV's in hospitals are supposed
to be marked in a distinctive fashion, and full-strength IV potassium
chloride is kept away from the ER. Otherwise, bad stuff happens:
http://www.iatrogenic.org/fatalerr.html

Jeff

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Here's a perspective that took a while to surface:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/14/opinion/14thu2.html?

I recall one long, hot, humid ride when I was religiously drinking
water, but feeling absolutely terrible. My stomach felt full and
sloshy, but I still felt thirsty; and yet water tasted terrible.

I stopped at a fast food joint and got some salt packets. It was
somehow what I needed. After that experience, I began carrying some
of those packets in my bike bag, and adding one or two to a water
bottle.

Later, someone told me that salt substitute is a better choice,
because it contains a better balance of sodium and potassium. You
can get it at any pharmacy. That's my fix for long hot rides these
days.

That and V-8 Juice.

I'm a V-8 drinker too. Call me un-American, but I hate soft drinks, and most
"juice" drinks aren't much better. V-8 is the only thing I'll drink that's
available in most convenience stores. It seems to do the trick with salt
depletion too.

Last year we had Hammergel as a sponsor for our big club ride. We got free
samples of their electrolyte capsules. As a believer in real food vs.
artificial yuppie power food, I had never tried such a thing. It sat around for
months, but I tried it one day when I was feeling really bad. Well, the stuff
is like magic. I felt much better, instantly. So I bought some more. I use it
occasionally when I feel sick or overtired. It's great stuff. I recommend it.

Matt O.

JeffWills said:

Well, potassium loss can contribute to muscle cramps:
http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/foodnut/09355.html

For sure low potassium can cause all sorts of problems, ranging from
weakness and cramps all the way to heart problems, death, and attempts
to overrule the separation of the legeslative and judicial branches.
What is not clear is wheather or not it has anything to do with
cramping during exercise, and if it does, whether or not
suplementation during exercise will help or not.

Jim Smith said:

Quoted message said:

Later, someone told me that salt substitute is a better choice,

because

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

it contains a better balance of sodium and potassium. You can get

it

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

at any pharmacy. That's my fix for long hot rides these days.

The answer to low sodium is to replace the sodium. At least some of
the salt replacements, such as NoSalt and NuSalt, contain no sodium.
All of them contain mostly potasium salts.

Hmm. Well, the one I've been using is "Cardia Salt" and it's
ingredients as listed are "Salt, Potassium chloride, Magnesium Sulfate,
L-Lysine Hydrochloride, Silicon Dioxide" - which would be listed in
order of decreasing content.

Potasium loss during

Quoted message said:

exercise has never been shown to be a problem. Although unlikely, it
is possible to kill yourself by taking too much oral potasium.

Well, that hasn't happened to me yet! ;-) But I'm not taking in much
of this at all. A few shakes into a large water bottle, and that only
on long hot rides.

Again, I tried this (as opposed to plain salt) based on what I heard
from a friend - and he certainly could be wrong. OTOH, it seems to me
that I've read that dropping potassium levels can be a problem under
those conditions. I know that on long hot rides, I develop a craving
for orange juice, and I was told that's possibly related to potassium
loss.

I'd be curious what others know about this.

- Frank Krygowski

Lat tmonth, when I went to buy some Potassium tablets (use them
occasionally on loooong rides for cramps and 'salt' replacement) - the
consulting naturopath (who happened to be at the pharmacy at the time),
asked me what they were for.

When I told her, she told me to buy magnesium tablets instead. She said
that all the research was showing that potassium had litle/no effect on
cramps, and that magnesium was proving to be the main culprit.

Took her advice and gave it a go. And am having much greater results!!
I suspect that this type of thing is very individual, but reckon that
its worth a shot for those not getting good results from there
potassium tablets (or whatever you're using)

Cheers,
Absent Husband

Quoted message said:

Jim Smith said:

Quoted message said:

Later, someone told me that salt substitute is a better choice,

because

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

it contains a better balance of sodium and potassium. You can get

it

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

at any pharmacy. That's my fix for long hot rides these days.

The answer to low sodium is to replace the sodium. At least some of
the salt replacements, such as NoSalt and NuSalt, contain no sodium.
All of them contain mostly potasium salts.

Hmm. Well, the one I've been using is "Cardia Salt" and it's
ingredients as listed are "Salt, Potassium chloride, Magnesium Sulfate,
L-Lysine Hydrochloride, Silicon Dioxide" - which would be listed in
order of decreasing content.

Hmm, looks like that one has about 2.5 times as much sodium as
potasium (47 vs 18 meq per teaspoon), so I was wrong about all of them
being mostly potassium. With that touch of magnesium too, it looks
like a reasonable substance to use if one was interested in
experimenting with replacing electrolytes. Important to read those
labels.

Absent Husband said:

Lat tmonth, when I went to buy some Potassium tablets (use them
occasionally on loooong rides for cramps and 'salt' replacement) - the
consulting naturopath (who happened to be at the pharmacy at the time),
asked me what they were for.

When I told her, she told me to buy magnesium tablets instead. She said
that all the research was showing that potassium had litle/no effect on
cramps, and that magnesium was proving to be the main culprit.

Took her advice and gave it a go. And am having much greater results!!
I suspect that this type of thing is very individual, but reckon that
its worth a shot for those not getting good results from there
potassium tablets (or whatever you're using)

Cheers,
Absent Husband

One thing to remember, buy the best quality mineral suppliments that you
can and check the assay. The low quality ones may (but may not) have
contaminents - typically very small quantites of lead and/or mercury or
other heavy metals. Though these might be trace amounts, over time they
could stay in the body and accumulate.

I hasten to add that this info is a decade old, and modern mineral
suppliments may be better controlled for purity. Solgar, Twin Labs, and
others were brands I used back then.

I think I'll do some research on Magnesium. Thanks for the tip.

What credentials do naturopaths have?

jj

"What credentials do naturopaths have? "

<snip>

In Australia (where I am...), it varies. I don't think you actually
need to do a course to hang a shingle in front of your house saying
"I'm a naturopath" (could be wrong, though...)

However - there are quite a few (respected) private colleges that run
1-3 year courses covering alternative medicines (naturopathy,
homeopathy, etc, etc).

Most pharmacies & health food shops here, who have a naturopath
attached, will generally list their qualifications (so you know you
aren't getting someone with a degree printed off the internet!!)

They don't generally have university degrees or anything - but will
preferably have done a reputable college diploma/certificate.

I'm pretty open-minded with all this... Will use alternative medicine
for preventative purposes, but 'modern/Western' medicine for fixing
anything that actually goes wrong.

Let me know if you turn up anything about the Magnesium!!

Cheers,
Absent Husband

Absent Husband said:

"What credentials do naturopaths have? "

<snip>

In Australia (where I am...), it varies. I don't think you actually
need to do a course to hang a shingle in front of your house saying
"I'm a naturopath" (could be wrong, though...)

However - there are quite a few (respected) private colleges that run
1-3 year courses covering alternative medicines (naturopathy,
homeopathy, etc, etc).

Most pharmacies & health food shops here, who have a naturopath
attached, will generally list their qualifications (so you know you
aren't getting someone with a degree printed off the internet!!)

They don't generally have university degrees or anything - but will
preferably have done a reputable college diploma/certificate.

I'm pretty open-minded with all this... Will use alternative medicine
for preventative purposes, but 'modern/Western' medicine for fixing
anything that actually goes wrong.

Let me know if you turn up anything about the Magnesium!!

There doesn't seem to be much info about magnesium and exercise
induced cramps. It is well known that low magnsium can cause cramps,
so that has been one thing people have looked at as a possible cause.

At this point in time, we still don't know what causes cramps during
exercise, but we are starting to figure out what isn't responsible.

Here are some typical reviews and papers:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15273192
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=8784961
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=9232553
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=6538834
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12480801

Shorter versions:

http://tinyurl.com/5pbvk
http://tinyurl.com/77549
http://tinyurl.com/bsb86
http://tinyurl.com/anyff
http://tinyurl.com/dxlxu

On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 07:00:53 -0500, Jim Smith <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

There doesn't seem to be much info about magnesium and exercise
induced cramps. It is well known that low magnsium can cause cramps,
so that has been one thing people have looked at as a possible cause.

At this point in time, we still don't know what causes cramps during
exercise, but we are starting to figure out what isn't responsible.

Good links, Jim. Are you unlurking? Enjoying your posts...

Has anyone signed you up for your Animal Warrior Power name yet?

-B

Absent Husband wrote:
:: Lat tmonth, when I went to buy some Potassium tablets (use them
:: occasionally on loooong rides for cramps and 'salt' replacement) -
:: the consulting naturopath (who happened to be at the pharmacy at the
:: time), asked me what they were for.
::
:: When I told her, she told me to buy magnesium tablets instead. She
:: said that all the research was showing that potassium had litle/no
:: effect on cramps, and that magnesium was proving to be the main
:: culprit.
::
:: Took her advice and gave it a go. And am having much greater
:: results!! I suspect that this type of thing is very individual, but
:: reckon that its worth a shot for those not getting good results from
:: there potassium tablets (or whatever you're using)

Thanks for the info....I had big problems with cramps on two rides last year
and ended up in the sag wagon. So, I'm going to try the magnesium this
time.

jj said:

Has anyone signed you up for your Animal Warrior Power name yet?

hmm. whatever that was it went right over my head.

Matt O'Toole said:

I'm a V-8 drinker too. Call me un-American, but I hate soft drinks,

and most

Quoted message said:

"juice" drinks aren't much better. V-8 is the only thing I'll drink

that's

Quoted message said:

available in most convenience stores. It seems to do the trick with

salt

Quoted message said:

depletion too.

V-8 is the distance rider's resuscitation drink. It's probably the
highest saline solution that's drinkable (subjective). A salt-rich meal
might be: V-8, doritos and a turkey sandwich (turkey is also loaded
with potassium, although potassium depletion isn't an issue). Fast food
french fries are also a great source of salt (& potassium) but most
can't tolerate the grease when riding hard.

Quoted message said:

Last year we had Hammergel as a sponsor for our big club ride. We

got free

Quoted message said:

samples of their electrolyte capsules. As a believer in real food

vs.

Quoted message said:

artificial yuppie power food, I had never tried such a thing. It sat

around for

Quoted message said:

months, but I tried it one day when I was feeling really bad. Well,

the stuff

Quoted message said:

is like magic. I felt much better, instantly. So I bought some

more. I use it

Quoted message said:

occasionally when I feel sick or overtired. It's great stuff. I

recommend it.

Their listed ingredients don't sound too magical. I just make up my own
capsules 2/3 table salt, 1/3 bicarb. I've found that salt depletion
isn't a problem until after 8-10 hr or so of hot, hard riding, an
observation that squares with the theory given the amount of sodium
reserves and sweat loss rate. The ingredients for Hammergel
Electrolytes:

Sodium Chloride 100 mg.
Calcium (Chelate) 50 mg.
Magnesium (Chelate) 25 mg.
Potassium (Chelate) 25 mg.
Vitamin B-6 (Pyrodoxine HCL) 6.6 mg.
Manganese (Chelate) 1.6 mg.
L-Tyrosine 50 mg.

Has anyone tried the Gu/20 Sports mixes for hydration?
http://www.gusports.com/html/gu2o.htm
-tom

Peter Cole said:

V-8 is the distance rider's resuscitation drink. It's probably the
highest saline solution that's drinkable (subjective). A salt-rich

meal

Quoted message said:

might be: V-8, doritos and a turkey sandwich (turkey is also loaded
with potassium, although potassium depletion isn't an issue). Fast

food

Quoted message said:

french fries are also a great source of salt (& potassium) but most
can't tolerate the grease when riding hard.

What's interesting to me is that my cravings during hot, humid, hard
rides seem to be sodium and potassium foods. I didn't know french
fries had any potassium, but I know they taste wonderful to me in those
conditions.

How about Pringles potato chips? That's something else that I seem to
crave. And beer, of course. And, as mentioned, orange juice with salt
mixed into it.

While we're at it, I wonder what foods are rich in magnesium. I'd be
interested to know if I crave those.

Yeah, I could go googling, but I'm hoping others have the knowledge at
hand.

- Frank Krygowski

Jim Smith said:

Quoted message said:

Later, someone told me that salt substitute is a better choice, because
it contains a better balance of sodium and potassium. You can get it
at any pharmacy. That's my fix for long hot rides these days.

The answer to low sodium is to replace the sodium. At least some of
the salt replacements, such as NoSalt and NuSalt, contain no sodium.
All of them contain mostly potasium salts. Potasium loss during
exercise has never been shown to be a problem. Although unlikely, it
is possible to kill yourself by taking too much oral potasium. For a
humorous yet factual take on the last point see:

http://www.macrobiotic.org/SaltSubDanger.htm

Fact: Potassium loss can kill you, since it plays a part in regulating
the heartbeat. Sodium is also needed, although not in the huge
quantities that the average American takes in. One Chinese take out
(MSG) or McBurger Fries with salt will top the daily requirement. Almost
any canned food (Campbells' soup comes to mind) will top you daily
allotment of sodium. I avoid Sodium, even on long sweaty rides, drinking
Orange Juice instead and the only thing I have ever noticed after a day
of climbing in 100F heat was low blood pressure (80/50), normal for a
child but not for an adult. After just chilling in the A/C indoors it
went back to about 110/70. The only noticeable side effect was right
after riding I could not sit down and then jump up again without nearly
fainting.
Side note: A woman killed her baby a few years back with the best of
intentions at heart by feeding the infant a low to no sodium diet and
substituting potassium instead. The electrolyte imbalance killed the kid.
Bill Baka

Matt O'Toole said:

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Here's a perspective that took a while to surface:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/14/opinion/14thu2.html?

I recall one long, hot, humid ride when I was religiously drinking
water, but feeling absolutely terrible. My stomach felt full and
sloshy, but I still felt thirsty; and yet water tasted terrible.

I stopped at a fast food joint and got some salt packets. It was
somehow what I needed. After that experience, I began carrying some
of those packets in my bike bag, and adding one or two to a water
bottle.

Later, someone told me that salt substitute is a better choice,
because it contains a better balance of sodium and potassium. You
can get it at any pharmacy. That's my fix for long hot rides these
days.

That and V-8 Juice.

I'm a V-8 drinker too. Call me un-American, but I hate soft drinks, and most
"juice" drinks aren't much better. V-8 is the only thing I'll drink that's
available in most convenience stores. It seems to do the trick with salt
depletion too.

Last year we had Hammergel as a sponsor for our big club ride. We got free
samples of their electrolyte capsules. As a believer in real food vs.
artificial yuppie power food, I had never tried such a thing. It sat around for
months, but I tried it one day when I was feeling really bad. Well, the stuff
is like magic. I felt much better, instantly. So I bought some more. I use it
occasionally when I feel sick or overtired. It's great stuff. I recommend it.

Matt O.

My opinion is that V-8 beats the heck out of Gatorade for both nutrients
and taste. Gatorade is just a way overhyped mix or Sodium and Potassium
with some sugar thrown in for energy.
Bill Baka