hybrid cars ?

Quoted message said:

Subject: hybrid cars ?
From: "Rob F. in Houston" [email hidden]
Date: 8/24/2004 8:54 PM US Eastern Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

How does everyone feel about the hybrid smog machines ? On one hand they are
clean quiet & help reduce our
dependence on foreign oil but one of the 5 senses is hearing and the Toyota
Prius can go over 40 MPH on battery
power alone, yea there is still the wind and tire noise but not much more
than a pack of riders make when they pass
(don't ask how I know this)

Rob Fruth - Houston

Ask yourself this:
How much does it cost for me to saeve money? Calculated payback against a
similar car like a camry is like 10 years.
If you want to pioneer all this with your hard earned cash, go ahead.

"Rob F. in Houston" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

How does everyone feel about the hybrid smog machines ? On one hand they
are
clean quiet & help reduce our
dependence on foreign oil but one of the 5 senses is hearing and the
Toyota
Prius can go over 40 MPH on battery
power alone, yea there is still the wind and tire noise but not much more
than a pack of riders make when they pass
(don't ask how I know this)

I think that hearing is important, but that *relying* on hearing for
situational awareness while riding in traffic is an invitation to disaster.
That's why I wear a mirror, why I ride so as to minimize the chances that a
driver will be surprised by my presence, and why I work hard to keep my
attention focused on what I'm doing.

As you say, hybrid cars are cleaner and quieter and more efficient than
other motor vehicles. But they're still cars, and they let their owners feel
virtuous while continuing to perpetuate a resource-intensive culture that's
hostile to human-powered transportation of all kinds. So I'm, at best,
indifferent to them.

But I haven't been able to free myself of car ownership entirely -- we're
down from two cars to one, and that one is used only half as much as in the
past, but we still need it -- so next time I have to buy one I expect to
look closely at hybrid-electric vehicles.

RichC

FX for saving money ya can't beat a bicycle ! (Rich I tend to agree with
you although I'm not a mirror person ((yet)))

--
Rob Fruth - Houston, Tx
http://www.rfruth.net

1981 Raleigh for errands & fun ____ __o
1997 Trek 2300 for real fun ! ____ _ \ | _)
2000 Civic hatchback (_)/ (_)

"Fx199" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
: >Subject: hybrid cars ?
: >From: "Rob F. in Houston" [email hidden]
: >Date: 8/24/2004 8:54 PM US Eastern Standard Time
: >Message-id: <[email hidden]>
: >
: >How does everyone feel about the hybrid smog machines ? On one hand they
are
: >clean quiet & help reduce our
: >dependence on foreign oil but one of the 5 senses is hearing and the
Toyota
: >Prius can go over 40 MPH on battery
: >power alone, yea there is still the wind and tire noise but not much more
: >than a pack of riders make when they pass
: >(don't ask how I know this)
: >
: >
: > Rob Fruth - Houston
:
: Ask yourself this:
: How much does it cost for me to saeve money? Calculated payback against a
: similar car like a camry is like 10 years.
: If you want to pioneer all this with your hard earned cash, go ahead.

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.742 / Virus Database: 495 - Release Date: 8/19/2004

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: hybrid cars ?
From: "Rob F. in Houston" [email hidden]
Date: 8/24/2004 9:23 PM US Eastern Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

FX for saving money ya can't beat a bicycle ! (Rich I tend to agree with
you although I'm not a mirror person ((yet)))

--
Rob Fruth - Houston, Tx
http://www.rfruth.net

1981 Raleigh for errands & fun ____ __o
1997 Trek 2300 for real fun ! ____ _ \ | _)
2000 Civic hatchback (_)/ (_)

I agree, I settle for a paid for truck.
It gets very cold and snowy in Indiana.

"Fx199" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: hybrid cars ?
From: "Rob F. in Houston" [email hidden]
Date: 8/24/2004 9:23 PM US Eastern Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

FX for saving money ya can't beat a bicycle ! (Rich I tend to agree with
you although I'm not a mirror person ((yet)))

--
Rob Fruth - Houston, Tx
http://www.rfruth.net

1981 Raleigh for errands & fun ____ __o
1997 Trek 2300 for real fun ! ____ _ \ | _)
2000 Civic hatchback (_)/ (_)

I agree, I settle for a paid for truck.
It gets very cold and snowy in Indiana.

FWIW, I'm pretty sure that most hybrids will run just fine, even in "cold
and snowy Indiana".

As for the payback period on a hybrid - I think most folks who purchase them
are looking at larger issues than just the economics of ownership.

GG

"Fx199" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Ask yourself this:
How much does it cost for me to saeve money? Calculated payback against a
similar car like a camry is like 10 years.
If you want to pioneer all this with your hard earned cash, go ahead.

Honda Civic vs Honda Civic Hybrid shows personal costs equalizing at
300,000-400,000 miles, depending on $/gal, and maintenance issues

IMHO, hybrids are but an intermediate step.

Pete

"Rich Clark" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Rob F. in Houston" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

How does everyone feel about the hybrid smog machines ? On one hand they
are
clean quiet & help reduce our
dependence on foreign oil but one of the 5 senses is hearing and the
Toyota
Prius can go over 40 MPH on battery
power alone, yea there is still the wind and tire noise but not much

more

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

than a pack of riders make when they pass
(don't ask how I know this)

I think that hearing is important, but that *relying* on hearing for
situational awareness while riding in traffic is an invitation to

disaster.

Quoted message said:

That's why I wear a mirror, why I ride so as to minimize the chances that

a

Quoted message said:

driver will be surprised by my presence, and why I work hard to keep my
attention focused on what I'm doing.

As you say, hybrid cars are cleaner and quieter and more efficient than
other motor vehicles. But they're still cars, and they let their owners

feel

Quoted message said:

virtuous while continuing to perpetuate a resource-intensive culture

that's

Quoted message said:

hostile to human-powered transportation of all kinds. So I'm, at best,
indifferent to them.

But I haven't been able to free myself of car ownership entirely -- we're
down from two cars to one, and that one is used only half as much as in

the

Quoted message said:

past, but we still need it -- so next time I have to buy one I expect to
look closely at hybrid-electric vehicles.

RichC

i too agree that hybrids are a good idea but since i have eliminated 90% of
my driving by cycling instead i would never find them cost efficient. i'll
continue to drive my '64 plymouth /6 occasionally (currently avg about one
mile per week) but forever (or as long as the oil lasts). btw. i would like
to see gas at $5 a gallon.

"Rob F. in Houston" wrote

Quoted message said:

How does everyone feel about the hybrid smog machines ? On

one hand they are

Quoted message said:

clean quiet & help reduce our
dependence on foreign oil but one of the 5 senses is

hearing and the Toyota

Quoted message said:

Prius can go over 40 MPH on battery
power alone, yea there is still the wind and tire noise

but not much more

Quoted message said:

than a pack of riders make when they pass
(don't ask how I know this)

1) Love my Toyota Prius, love my Prius, love my Prius.
Quiet, quick, smooth, commodius, reliable, economical,
_more_ environmentally friendly. My wife's been on the
waiting list for a new one for nearly six months!

2) It will have to do until hydrogen fuel cell vehicles are
readily available (with infrastructure to support them).
Emissions = water vapor. Neat!

3) I'm typically on my Cannondale, next on my Bimmer m/c,
then to the Prius (15k miles in about 3yrs)

4) F--- OPEC! Start by cutting demand (it really won't kill
most of us), then we won't have to bomb to ensure supply....

5) (Not intentionally flame-baiting here, but....) What are
_most_ of these SUV drivers, living in big-city, temperate
climate metropolises _doing_ with these damned 11mpg beasts
anyway (other them imperiling cyclists....). Eliminate the
$100,000 deduction for SUV's of >=6,000 lbs and subsidize
alternative fuel vehicles (and bikes!) instead

6) Whoever said that breakeven/payback isn't the point . . .
is exactly right. It's that attitude that needs some
revision. I'm paying for reduced dependence on foreign oil,
cleaner air, fewer greenhouse gasses, and to reward an auto
manufacturer for allocating R&D money to this technology.
What's the payback on a Colnago C50? Right. Exactly.

7) At 40mph, the primary sound you hear coming from my
hybrid, ElMo (ELectric MOtor) is the Grateful Dead ;-) If
you really miss that sound of raw power, get a CD made of
the sound of a blown 426ci Hemi and put a 2,000 watt stereo
in your hybrid. It won't tax your batteries ;-)

Dreaded said:

i would like to see gas at $5 a gallon.

8) Awwwww, yeah! Bring it on!!

Rob said:

snip> Quiet, quick, smooth, commodius, reliable, economical>snip

commodius? wow that thing does everything!
seriously-right on! it is attitude and making it real. i was [censored] and
moaning about all of the problems of traffic and car culture until i
realized that it was me that was the problem! now im biking, happier,
healthier and only a bit more arrogant...

--
"""""
x x

Quoted message said:

V

Quoted message said:

How does everyone feel about the hybrid smog machines ? On one hand they
are
clean quiet & help reduce our
dependence on foreign oil but one of the 5 senses is hearing and the
Toyota
Prius can go over 40 MPH on battery
power alone, yea there is still the wind and tire noise but not much more
than a pack of riders make when they pass
(don't ask how I know this)

Back in the 70s, during the original (and only "real"😉 gas crisis,
battery-powered cars made a few very minor inroads. Nothing serious, but
even back then I noted that a world of battery-powered cars could be the
death of cyclists 'cuz they're so darned quiet. On the other hand, it's
likely the driver of a battery or hybrid car isn't likely to fit the profile
of most-dangerous-driver.

As for the financial payback of a hybrid vs gas-powered car, I think that's
missing the point for most of us. If at all possible, my next car will be
some sort of reduced-gas-guzzling vehicle. Most likely hybrid, although one
could dream that fuel-cell technology might work out sooner than later. I
don't expect it to save money, but if it helps to demonstrate that
technology *can* reduce our dependence upon fossil fuels, I'd like to be a
part of that statement. Besides, it's not as if people choose cars entirely
on economic criteria.... that's only one small part of the equation!

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

"dreaded" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

i too agree that hybrids are a good idea but since i have eliminated 90%

of

Quoted message said:

my driving by cycling instead i would never find them cost efficient. i'll
continue to drive my '64 plymouth /6 occasionally (currently avg about one
mile per week) but forever (or as long as the oil lasts). btw. i would

like

Quoted message said:

to see gas at $5 a gallon.

$5 a gallon gas? That's a great idea. Then the price of EVERYTHING will go
up.

But if you feel so strongly about it, I'm pretty sure no gas station owner
would mind if you offered them $5 a gallon for their product. People like
you could subsidize it for those of us who really need it.

Dave

"Mike Jacoubowsky" wrote: (clip)I don't expect it to save money, (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I realize that your point is that there are plenty of reasons for buying a
hybrid besides dollar payback, and I agree. But, I would like to point out
a few of the factors besides fuel economy. The fact that the car uses
dynamic regenerative braking means that the brakes last a very long time.
The Prious, at least, uses a very innovative system to couple the gasoline
engine, the electric motor/dynamic brake, and the drive shaft, from which
they are able to get a stepless automatic transmission. Since this
transmission has fewer moving parts (it is just a differential), it should
last a very long time. Furthermore, there is no clutch to wear out. Since
the engine can sit in traffic without idling, and runs only a fraction of
the time when power is needed, this too should really last. When it starts,
it first gets oil pumped through all the engine bearings, as well. I have
also heard (I am not absolutely sure of this), that the oil and coolant are
stored in insulated tanks when the car is shut off, so warm-up is minimized.
Engines wear a lot and polute a lot while in the warmup phase.

On the other hand, my son's Prious got very poor tire life. When he needed
replacements, he had difficulty finding alternatives.

On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 03:34:33 GMT, "neil0502" <[email hidden]>
wrote (more or less):
....

Quoted message said:

2) It will have to do until hydrogen fuel cell vehicles are
readily available (with infrastructure to support them).
Emissions = water vapor. Neat!

Hydrogen, unlike fossil petrochemicals, is in effect just a store of
energy, not a source f it.

For hydrogen, " emissions = water vapour" is only true at point of
use.

If the hydrogen comes from electrolysis, and the electricity comes
from burning fossil fuels, then the actuall emissions are CO2, water,
etc.

My hope is that one day there'll be a load of hydrogen electrolysed
off-shore by wind/wave farms and then piped back to the mainland.

But that's a while away yet.

There are 64mpg (imperial, combined cycle) diesel cars on the market
now (compared with the new Prius' 65mpg (imperial, combined cycle).

I suspect that an infrastructure of bio-diesel and these cars is a
likelier progression to carbon-neutral cars than the Prius is.

Quoted message said:

3) I'm typically on my Cannondale, next on my Bimmer m/c,
then to the Prius (15k miles in about 3yrs)

Quoted message said:

4) F--- OPEC! Start by cutting demand (it really won't kill
most of us), then we won't have to bomb to ensure supply....

Hear hear!

Quoted message said:

5) (Not intentionally flame-baiting here, but....) What are
_most_ of these SUV drivers, living in big-city, temperate
climate metropolises _doing_ with these damned 11mpg beasts
anyway (other them imperiling cyclists....). Eliminate the
$100,000 deduction for SUV's of >=6,000 lbs and subsidize
alternative fuel vehicles (and bikes!) instead

6) Whoever said that breakeven/payback isn't the point . . .
is exactly right. It's that attitude that needs some
revision. I'm paying for reduced dependence on foreign oil,
cleaner air, fewer greenhouse gasses, and to reward an auto
manufacturer for allocating R&D money to this technology.
What's the payback on a Colnago C50? Right. Exactly.

7) At 40mph, the primary sound you hear coming from my
hybrid, ElMo (ELectric MOtor) is the Grateful Dead ;-) If
you really miss that sound of raw power, get a CD made of
the sound of a blown 426ci Hemi and put a 2,000 watt stereo
in your hybrid. It won't tax your batteries ;-)

Dreaded said:

i would like to see gas at $5 a gallon.

8) Awwwww, yeah! Bring it on!!

Mind you, that's pretty much the price over here...

--
Cheers,
Euan
Gawnsoft: http://www.gawnsoft.co.sr
Symbian/Epoc wiki: http://html.dnsalias.net:1122
Smalltalk links (harvested from comp.lang.smalltalk) http://html.dnsalias.net/gawnsoft/smalltalk

On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 04:38:26 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
<[email hidden]> wrote (more or less):

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

How does everyone feel about the hybrid smog machines ? On one hand they
are
clean quiet & help reduce our
dependence on foreign oil but one of the 5 senses is hearing and the
Toyota
Prius can go over 40 MPH on battery
power alone, yea there is still the wind and tire noise but not much more
than a pack of riders make when they pass
(don't ask how I know this)

Back in the 70s, during the original (and only "real"😉 gas crisis,
battery-powered cars made a few very minor inroads. Nothing serious, but
even back then I noted that a world of battery-powered cars could be the
death of cyclists 'cuz they're so darned quiet. On the other hand, it's
likely the driver of a battery or hybrid car isn't likely to fit the profile
of most-dangerous-driver.

I suspect that eventually, they'll be fitted with some sort of
always-on electric noise making gadget, making a constant-ish drone.

Quoted message said:

As for the financial payback of a hybrid vs gas-powered car, I think that's
missing the point for most of us. If at all possible, my next car will be
some sort of reduced-gas-guzzling vehicle. Most likely hybrid, although one
could dream that fuel-cell technology might work out sooner than later. I
don't expect it to save money, but if it helps to demonstrate that
technology *can* reduce our dependence upon fossil fuels, I'd like to be a
part of that statement. Besides, it's not as if people choose cars entirely
on economic criteria.... that's only one small part of the equation!

--
Cheers,
Euan
Gawnsoft: http://www.gawnsoft.co.sr
Symbian/Epoc wiki: http://html.dnsalias.net:1122
Smalltalk links (harvested from comp.lang.smalltalk) http://html.dnsalias.net/gawnsoft/smalltalk

Quoted message said:

How does everyone feel about the hybrid smog machines ?
On one hand they are clean quiet & help reduce our
dependence on foreign oil ...

=v= The cleanliness is only for certain measured pollutants,
while others are ignored. It's nice that they're more
efficient, but that just doesn't go far enough to make a
real difference in the environment or for dependence on
foreign oil. Consider that they're selling hybrid SUVs
as if that's somehow going to save the planet. Uh-uh.

=v= The technology would be better used for light rail or
even bus systems.

Quoted message said:

... there is still the wind and tire noise ...

=v= Not to mention particulate pollution from tire DUST.
<_Jym_>

Jym Dyer said:

=v= Not to mention particulate pollution from tire DUST.

Pretty much a non-issue. Pick your battles wisely.

Rob F. in Houston said:

How does everyone feel about the hybrid smog machines ? On one hand they are
clean quiet & help reduce our
dependence on foreign oil but one of the 5 senses is hearing and the Toyota
Prius can go over 40 MPH on battery
power alone, yea there is still the wind and tire noise but not much more
than a pack of riders make when they pass
(don't ask how I know this)

I really like mine. Like another poster said, they
are very roomy inside. I don't find we get the
mileage they claim in the city (esp. in the
winter when cold temperatures make the battery
less efficient, at least that's my interpretation),
but we have very short trips -- less than 2 miles --
that really kills us. Still, we get better mileage
than on the car we traded in (a '94 Escort Wagon).
We go through maybe 2 tanks of gas a month $15/fill.
So that part is pretty cheap, although it's
compensated for by the car payment (first in
10 years!)

I haven't tried fitting a bike in the back yet
(Mostly 'cause I'm 3 weeks and counting bikeless,
but I hope to get a new one soon), but I think
it should work.

And they are quiet. I recall an old guy walking
a dog, standing in the middle of our driveway,
looking at our house, away from the street, as
I'm waiting ... waiting .... waiting to pull
in. Finally I rolled down the window and said
excuse me Boy did he jump!

Scott

Quoted message said:

=v= The cleanliness is only for certain measured pollutants,
while others are ignored. It's nice that they're more
efficient, but that just doesn't go far enough to make a
real difference in the environment or for dependence on
foreign oil. Consider that they're selling hybrid SUVs
as if that's somehow going to save the planet. Uh-uh.

Jim: Anything that increases awareness of an issue, even if it doesn't do
all that much to makes things better in and of itself, is a good thing. If
hybrids become obvious on the roadways, people will have just a little bit
more opportunity to be thinking that what they're doing (driving everywhere,
belching smoke, paying $$$ for gas) could be something subject to change.

It's an attitude thing, and could finally force the automakers and Feds to
require more stringent standards for mileage on cars in general, not to
mention get rid of the ridiculous loopholes that call our minivan (and most
SUVs) a truck.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

Mike Jacoubowsky:

Quoted message said:

It's an attitude thing, and could finally force the automakers and Feds to
require more stringent standards for mileage on cars in general, not to
mention get rid of the ridiculous loopholes that call our minivan (and
most SUVs) a truck.

Minivans actually owe their existence to laws that were intended to make
automaker's "fleets" more fuel-efficient. The tax penalty on full-size
station wagons is high enough that they often cost more than minivans (which
don't have the penalty imposed on them). So people buy the minivans and the
full-size station wagons (which can easily be made more fuel-efficient than
minivans) all but disappear. Law meant to make things better makes things
worse.

We'll all find alternative transportation when the oil runs out.

Austin