Hub gears

D.M. Procida said:

How long before derailleurs are obsolete? The newest hub gears seem to
have as many usable gears, and to be as efficient, and to be easier to
maintain. They're more expensive, but that's changing too.

Don't know if that will change enough: derailleur gears can be made very
cheaply. Hub gears would have to be as light and versatile as well to to
make derailleurs obsolete. Being able to change all the individual cogs &
rings is a great advantage of the derailleur system.

Minimal maintenance is the only major advantage of hub gears at the
moment, IMO. Racers would/will use them if/when there were as light,
efficient and versatile.

~PB

"Pete Biggs" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

D.M. Procida said:

How long before derailleurs are obsolete? The newest hub gears seem to
have as many usable gears, and to be as efficient, and to be easier to
maintain. They're more expensive, but that's changing too.

Don't know if that will change enough: derailleur gears can be made very
cheaply. Hub gears would have to be as light and versatile as well to to
make derailleurs obsolete. Being able to change all the individual cogs &
rings is a great advantage of the derailleur system.

Minimal maintenance is the only major advantage of hub gears at the
moment, IMO. Racers would/will use them if/when there were as light,
efficient and versatile.

~PB

And being les vunerable to knocks, both inherently and because they are
inside the spokes. I wish I'd had a hub gear for my E2E ride rather than the
deraillers that were faulty for the first 3 1/2 days until we could get them
fixed at a LBS. Efficiency is more the issue than weight for pros I
suspect.

--
Tumbleweed

email replies not necessary but to contact use;
tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com

in message
<[email hidden]>,

D.M. Procida (') said:

How long before derailleurs are obsolete? The newest hub gears seem to
have as many usable gears, and to be as efficient, and to be easier to
maintain. They're more expensive, but that's changing too.

They're still (and inevitably) less efficient, so they won't replace
derailleurs for road racing. Derailleurs are mechanically ugly but
remarkably effective - c'est brutal, mais ca marche. However, despite
the efficiency deficit, I believe they /will/ ultimately replace
derailleurs for off-road racing, including cross-country, because having
your transmission exposed in really dirty conditions with stones and
tree branches bouncing around really is not a very good idea.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; Our modern industrial economy takes a mountain covered with trees,
;; lakes, running streams and transforms it into a mountain of junk,
;; garbage, slime pits, and debris. -- Edward Abbey

Tumbleweed said:

And being les vunerable to knocks, both inherently and because they
are inside the spokes. I wish I'd had a hub gear for my E2E ride
rather than the deraillers that were faulty for the first 3 1/2 days
until we could get them fixed at a LBS. Efficiency is more the issue
than weight for pros I suspect.

Most problems with derailleur gears can be fixed by roadside. It's rare
for anything more than a bent hanger to result from a "knock" and this
doesn't stop the gears working altogether. I would hate to be stranded
with faulty hub gears (which can sometimes leave you with no drive at
all) -- even most LBSs can't fix those.

~PB

"Pete Biggs" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tumbleweed said:

And being les vunerable to knocks, both inherently and because they
are inside the spokes. I wish I'd had a hub gear for my E2E ride
rather than the deraillers that were faulty for the first 3 1/2 days
until we could get them fixed at a LBS. Efficiency is more the issue
than weight for pros I suspect.

Most problems with derailleur gears can be fixed by roadside. It's rare
for anything more than a bent hanger to result from a "knock" and this
doesn't stop the gears working altogether. I would hate to be stranded
with faulty hub gears (which can sometimes leave you with no drive at
all) -- even most LBSs can't fix those.

~PB

it was a bent hanger :-) I had '6' gears left, top and bottom for each
chainwheel. I put the 6 in quotes because chain rub means a couple arent
good to use and I dont know what the effects of overlap would have been
either, eg whether a couple would have been v similar.

So you'd have to weight the odds of a bent hanger against the odds of a hub
completely failing if that was your reason for choosing one way or the
other. You could also be stranded by other failures, bottom bracket for
example. An LBS could fix that but in reality how often is such a failure
going to happen? Most of us here drive, we have to accept that with a car
there will be an occasion a total failure means the car needs to be
recovered, why any different for a bike? Also, what does 'stranded' mean?
One thing if you are cycling in the UK, another in deepest Peru. In
retrospect I do wish I'd gone for a Rohloff.

--
Tumbleweed

email replies not necessary but to contact use;
tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com

Simon Brooke said:

They're still (and inevitably) less efficient, so they won't replace
derailleurs for road racing. Derailleurs are mechanically ugly but
remarkably effective - c'est brutal, mais ca marche. However, despite
the efficiency deficit, I believe they /will/ ultimately replace
derailleurs for off-road racing, including cross-country, because having
your transmission exposed in really dirty conditions with stones and
tree branches bouncing around really is not a very good idea.

Since the Rohloff 14 speed has been around for many years now, why
haven't they then?

--
Tony

"I did make a mistake once - I thought I'd made a mistake but I hadn't"
Anon

Simon Brooke said:

Quoted message said:

How long before derailleurs are obsolete? The newest hub gears seem to
have as many usable gears, and to be as efficient, and to be easier to
maintain. They're more expensive, but that's changing too.

They're still (and inevitably) less efficient,

Why inevitably?

Oh, and when will we see a continuously variable transmission for a
bike?

Daniele

Tony Raven <[email hidden]> wrote in news:3kjjmhFu5vt2U1
@individual.net:

Quoted message said:

Since the Rohloff 14 speed has been around for many years now, why
haven't they then?

After reading a post here (or maybe aus.bicycle) the other week from some
company in the US (or was it Canadian) company whining about how they'd
been treated by Rohloff (it may have been a genuine complaint, but it came
across as whiney), is there any truth in their statement that Rohloff are
behaving a bit strangely now?

Mind you, now that I've tried to Google for the relevant site(s) or look
through my history, I can't find any reference to it at all!

Matron, quick, the drugs must be wearing off! :-/

Graeme

Tumbleweed said:

"Pete Biggs" <[email hidden]>
wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tumbleweed said:

And being les vunerable to knocks, both inherently and because they
are inside the spokes. I wish I'd had a hub gear for my E2E ride
rather than the deraillers that were faulty for the first 3 1/2 days
until we could get them fixed at a LBS. Efficiency is more the
issue than weight for pros I suspect.

Most problems with derailleur gears can be fixed by roadside. It's
rare for anything more than a bent hanger to result from a "knock"
and this doesn't stop the gears working altogether. I would hate to
be stranded with faulty hub gears (which can sometimes leave you
with no drive at all) -- even most LBSs can't fix those.

it was a bent hanger :-) I had '6' gears left, top and bottom for
each chainwheel.

Ample! ;-)

Quoted message said:

I put the 6 in quotes because chain rub means a
couple arent good to use and I dont know what the effects of overlap
would have been either, eg whether a couple would have been v similar.

You were particularly unlucky. No hanger of mine has ever bent that badly
despite all sorts of falls and knocks. But a hanger can be bent back with
an adjustable spanner which you can carry or borrow -- maybe not precisely
aligned but well enough to get all gears working. Or replaceable types
can be replaced.

Quoted message said:

So you'd have to weight the odds of a bent hanger against the odds of
a hub completely failing if that was your reason for choosing one way
or the other. You could also be stranded by other failures, bottom
bracket for example. An LBS could fix that but in reality how often
is such a failure going to happen?

Depends on the model of hub. It's not an uncommon problem with old Sturmy
Nastyarcher but I guess v rare with Rohloff (?).

Quoted message said:

Most of us here drive,

I don't (but point taken).

Quoted message said:

we have to
accept that with a car there will be an occasion a total failure
means the car needs to be recovered, why any different for a bike?
Also, what does 'stranded' mean? One thing if you are cycling in the
UK, another in deepest Peru. In retrospect I do wish I'd gone for a
Rohloff.

Same argument can be applied to risk of chronically/fatally bent hanger.

Stranded for me means getting stuck out further away from home than I
could walk, and not having anyone to rescue me who wouldn't be
inconvenienced quite a lot. Wouldn't be so bad if I happened to be near a
train station (with a service that took bikes) but I dread to think what a
taxi fare would cost.

So reliability is important for me. Of all the things on the bike I worry
about letting me down, derailleurs are near the bottom of the list. And
most touring cyclists don't mind using derailleur gears, even ones touring
Peru, I'm sure.

Still, I can appreciate the attraction of Rohloffs. One would be on my
dream winter hack bike :-)

~PB

"Tony Raven" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Simon Brooke said:

They're still (and inevitably) less efficient, so they won't replace
derailleurs for road racing. Derailleurs are mechanically ugly but
remarkably effective - c'est brutal, mais ca marche. However, despite
the efficiency deficit, I believe they /will/ ultimately replace
derailleurs for off-road racing, including cross-country, because having
your transmission exposed in really dirty conditions with stones and
tree branches bouncing around really is not a very good idea.

Since the Rohloff 14 speed has been around for many years now, why haven't
they then?

same answer as to why arent we all on carbon fibre bikes. Cost.

--
Tumbleweed

email replies not necessary but to contact use;
tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com

"Pete Biggs" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tumbleweed said:

"Pete Biggs" <[email hidden]>
wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tumbleweed wrote:
> And being les vunerable to knocks, both inherently and because they
> are inside the spokes. I wish I'd had a hub gear for my E2E ride
> rather than the deraillers that were faulty for the first 3 1/2 days
> until we could get them fixed at a LBS. Efficiency is more the
> issue than weight for pros I suspect.

Most problems with derailleur gears can be fixed by roadside. It's
rare for anything more than a bent hanger to result from a "knock"
and this doesn't stop the gears working altogether. I would hate to
be stranded with faulty hub gears (which can sometimes leave you
with no drive at all) -- even most LBSs can't fix those.

it was a bent hanger :-) I had '6' gears left, top and bottom for
each chainwheel.

Ample! ;-)

Quoted message said:

I put the 6 in quotes because chain rub means a
couple arent good to use and I dont know what the effects of overlap
would have been either, eg whether a couple would have been v similar.

You were particularly unlucky. No hanger of mine has ever bent that badly
despite all sorts of falls and knocks. But a hanger can be bent back with
an adjustable spanner which you can carry or borrow -- maybe not precisely
aligned but well enough to get all gears working. Or replaceable types
can be replaced.

It was the choice between continuing for the next 100-120 or so miles until
we found an LBS, or trying to fix it enroute and possibly making it worse
(where worse = not working at all since it was only just working as it was).
It was only a small bend or it wouldnt have worked at all I suspect. I'm
sure it was worse because they are indexed gears since there is less scope
for error. My fault really for not taking more care and putting it D side up
when I put it in the trailer. Thinking about it, it was 2 1/2 days not 3 1/2
to the LBS.

--
Tumbleweed

email replies not necessary but to contact use;
tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com

Tumbleweed said:

"Tony Raven" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Simon Brooke said:

They're still (and inevitably) less efficient, so they won't replace
derailleurs for road racing. Derailleurs are mechanically ugly but
remarkably effective - c'est brutal, mais ca marche. However, despite
the efficiency deficit, I believe they /will/ ultimately replace
derailleurs for off-road racing, including cross-country, because having
your transmission exposed in really dirty conditions with stones and
tree branches bouncing around really is not a very good idea.

Since the Rohloff 14 speed has been around for many years now, why haven't
they then?

same answer as to why arent we all on carbon fibre bikes. Cost.

Very few out there riding carbon fibre bikes for off-road racing (which
is where Simon believed they will replace derailleurs) but plenty of
them are riding very expensive, money no object bikes, non of which are
hub geared. So I don't accept the cost arguement.

--
Tony

"I did make a mistake once - I thought I'd made a mistake but I hadn't"
Anon

D.M. Procida said:

Simon Brooke said:

Quoted message said:

How long before derailleurs are obsolete? The newest hub gears seem to
have as many usable gears, and to be as efficient, and to be easier to
maintain. They're more expensive, but that's changing too.

They're still (and inevitably) less efficient,

Why inevitably?

Because by their very nature the meshing gears are less efficient than
the crude but simple derailleur which is a simple direct drive with the
gear ratio changed by shoving the chain onto another direct drive
combination. Its the same with shaft drive vs chain drive.

Quoted message said:

Oh, and when will we see a continuously variable transmission for a
bike?

They've been done many times but none have caught on.

--
Tony

"I did make a mistake once - I thought I'd made a mistake but I hadn't"
Anon

I submit that on or about Mon, 25 Jul 2005 08:46:24 +0100, the person
known to the court as Tony Raven <[email hidden]> made a
statement (<[email hidden]> in Your Honour's bundle) to
the following effect:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I believe they /will/ ultimately replace
derailleurs for off-road racing, including cross-country, because having
your transmission exposed in really dirty conditions with stones and
tree branches bouncing around really is not a very good idea.

Quoted message said:

Since the Rohloff 14 speed has been around for many years now, why
haven't they then?

Mass and price tag, I'd say.

Guy
--
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

"To every complex problem there is a solution which is
simple, neat and wrong" - HL Mencken

I submit that on or about Mon, 25 Jul 2005 08:46:24 +0100, the person
known to the court as Tony Raven <[email hidden]> made a
statement (<[email hidden]> in Your Honour's bundle) to
the following effect:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I believe they /will/ ultimately replace
derailleurs for off-road racing, including cross-country, because having
your transmission exposed in really dirty conditions with stones and
tree branches bouncing around really is not a very good idea.

Quoted message said:

Since the Rohloff 14 speed has been around for many years now, why
haven't they then?

Mass and price tag, I'd say.

Guy
--
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

"To every complex problem there is a solution which is
simple, neat and wrong" - HL Mencken

Just zis Guy said:

I submit that on or about Mon, 25 Jul 2005 08:46:24 +0100, the person
known to the court as Tony Raven <[email hidden]> made a
statement (<[email hidden]> in Your Honour's bundle) to
the following effect:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I believe they /will/ ultimately replace
derailleurs for off-road racing, including cross-country, because having
your transmission exposed in really dirty conditions with stones and
tree branches bouncing around really is not a very good idea.

Since the Rohloff 14 speed has been around for many years now, why
haven't they then?

Mass and price tag, I'd say.

Is mass that significant considering a Rohloff will replace a cassette,
dérailleur and two chainrings, maybe a few chain links too?

The price is the only thing the prevents me from getting one.

Colin

Just zis Guy said:

I submit that on or about Mon, 25 Jul 2005 08:46:24 +0100, the person
known to the court as Tony Raven <[email hidden]> made a
statement (<[email hidden]> in Your Honour's bundle) to
the following effect:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I believe they /will/ ultimately replace
derailleurs for off-road racing, including cross-country, because having
your transmission exposed in really dirty conditions with stones and
tree branches bouncing around really is not a very good idea.

Since the Rohloff 14 speed has been around for many years now, why
haven't they then?

Mass and price tag, I'd say.

Is mass that significant considering a Rohloff will replace a cassette,
dérailleur and two chainrings, maybe a few chain links too?

The price is the only thing the prevents me from getting one.

Colin

D.M. Procida said:

How long before derailleurs are obsolete? The newest hub gears seem to
have as many usable gears, and to be as efficient, and to be easier to
maintain. They're more expensive, but that's changing too.

I currently commute on a hub gear and was keen to try one out but the
hidden-ness of the gears is in fact not that nice. I now crave the
simplicity and visibility and efficiency of a simple/quality derailleur.

D.M. Procida said:

How long before derailleurs are obsolete? The newest hub gears seem to
have as many usable gears, and to be as efficient, and to be easier to
maintain. They're more expensive, but that's changing too.

I currently commute on a hub gear and was keen to try one out but the
hidden-ness of the gears is in fact not that nice. I now crave the
simplicity and visibility and efficiency of a simple/quality derailleur.