HST VS. 3-day split routine

fj said:

I have total 10 month lifting expereince. During first 9 months I

followed

Quoted message said:

HST routine. For a newbie, you can say I made a lot of progress,

especially

Quoted message said:

my strength went up and my body weight went up 10 lb. Muscle

definition is

Quoted message said:

better.

From last month I changed to a 3-day split routine.
Monday Chest, trap and tricep + abs
Wednesday Leg + abs
Friday Shoulder, back + abs

I don't feel good about my new routine, BTW, I am doing pyramid load

for

Quoted message said:

about 5 sets per excercise. The reasons are

1) It's very hard to predict my strength level. For example, I did 1

set

Quoted message said:

6x245 bench last week. But I failed at 5x225 this morning and asked

help...

Quoted message said:

I was totally frustrated.

2) I kept getting injuries. I hurted my back when doing military

press two

Quoted message said:

weeks ago. I hurted tha same muscle this morning again. I would think
pyramid load, i.e. adding load for each set till the max load set, is

a

Quoted message said:

pretty safe approach.

Any suggestion? My original thought is to change the routine and

compare the

Quoted message said:

effect of different routine. Did I do something wrong for my 3-day

split

Quoted message said:

routine?

What are you goals ??

Without knowing what you want out of your workout it's nearly
impossible to give any meaningful advice.

Do you want to be bigger and/or stronger...to what level ?? Bodybuilder
?? Powerlifter ?? Fitness ??

fj said:

2) I kept getting injuries. I hurted my back when doing military press two
weeks ago. I hurted tha same muscle this morning again. I would think
pyramid load, i.e. adding load for each set till the max load set, is a
pretty safe approach.

I find that I get more injuries doing a split/pyramid approach. Now I
have been using the 3 time a week HST full body approach and have been
able to keep injuries down. You can feel the injury coming so you can
stop and take a week off.

Also about consitancy, HST is nice because I always know exactally what
I can lift, and I never miss lift that isn't on max day.

But, if you want to stick with your new routine here are my suggestions:

Cycle the intensity, this is harder with pyramid then simple work sets,
but you should not be maxing out every time you are in the gym, this
will cause injuries real fast.

Give it a chance. When you change workouts you arn't going to be
performing your best or consitantly with the new program until you get
used to it. Probably 1 month or so.

I too am having trouble with my Military press, I switched from standing
barbell in front, to standing dumbell arnold a few weeks ago to see if
it would be easier on my shoulder. So If one lift consitantly bothers
you, try substituting another lift for it.

--Falooley

"Bob Falooley" wrote

Quoted message said:

I too am having trouble with my Military press, I switched from standing
barbell in front, to standing dumbell arnold a few weeks ago to see if it
would be easier on my shoulder. So If one lift consitantly bothers you,
try substituting another lift for it.

I naturally have shoulder problems. Combine this with upper back and neck
injuries from auto accidents, I need to be super careful of this region.
This is my approach.

No rotation of the hands while pressing. this rules out the arnold press. I
do at least three warmup sets with light weights. I do a combo DB clean and
press. I clean to a parallel grip. I use only light weight for this. The
idea is to thoroughly warm up the entire upper back and shoulder region. If
anything starts to act up in my back, I stop doing the cleans. But I finish
the shoulder warmup sets.

Then I go to dumbell presses. Again, I use only parallel grip. This seems to
give me (and a few other folks) the least problems.

It works for me.

YMMV

My goal is to gain muscle mass. I am 5'9". Depends on the mood of the scale
in our gym, 168-175lb. Body fat around 12% I guess. I can see a little of my
abs when I flex.

-fj

fj said:

I have total 10 month lifting expereince. During first 9 months I followed
HST routine. For a newbie, you can say I made a lot of progress, especially
my strength went up and my body weight went up 10 lb. Muscle definition is
better.

From last month I changed to a 3-day split routine.
Monday Chest, trap and tricep + abs
Wednesday Leg + abs
Friday Shoulder, back + abs

I don't feel good about my new routine, BTW, I am doing pyramid load for
about 5 sets per excercise. The reasons are

1) It's very hard to predict my strength level. For example, I did 1 set
6x245 bench last week. But I failed at 5x225 this morning and asked help...
I was totally frustrated.

This is what I don't like about pyramiding. You spend a lot of your
strength on weights that aren't the most challenging.

Quoted message said:

2) I kept getting injuries. I hurted my back when doing military press two
weeks ago. I hurted tha same muscle this morning again. I would think
pyramid load, i.e. adding load for each set till the max load set, is a
pretty safe approach.

Any suggestion?

Don't keep doing pyramids all the time.
Cycle your reps down/weight up over the course of your cycle.
When you've hit a wall, or when your performance stagnates or declines
it's a good time to do something else. Even if it's just backing up in
weight for a bit. You wont be able to keep adding weight forever.

Look at this periodization model
http://www.exrx.net/WeightTraining/Periodization.html
consider trying something like it.
It's just a simple method of keeping you progressing and not getting
stuck on a plateau or going backwards.
You'd think that by repeating the percentages
you're just reusing the old weights but you're not.
You should end up using heavier weights at, say
the 2nd round at 80% than you did during the 1st.
You don't have to do them for only one week a time either.

fj said:

I have total 10 month lifting expereince. During first 9 months I

followed

Quoted message said:

HST routine. For a newbie, you can say I made a lot of progress,

especially

Quoted message said:

my strength went up and my body weight went up 10 lb. Muscle

definition is

Quoted message said:

better.

From last month I changed to a 3-day split routine.
Monday Chest, trap and tricep + abs
Wednesday Leg + abs
Friday Shoulder, back + abs

I don't feel good about my new routine, BTW, I am doing pyramid load

for

Quoted message said:

about 5 sets per excercise. The reasons are

1) It's very hard to predict my strength level. For example, I did 1

set

Quoted message said:

6x245 bench last week. But I failed at 5x225 this morning and asked

help...

Quoted message said:

I was totally frustrated.

2) I kept getting injuries. I hurted my back when doing military

press two

Quoted message said:

weeks ago. I hurted tha same muscle this morning again. I would think
pyramid load, i.e. adding load for each set till the max load set, is

a

Quoted message said:

pretty safe approach.

Any suggestion? My original thought is to change the routine and

compare the

Quoted message said:

effect of different routine. Did I do something wrong for my 3-day

split

Quoted message said:

routine?

-fj

A newbie is likely to make good gains doing almost anything. HST is
not what would usually be recommended for a beginner. I wonder what
you could lift before you started training. You didn't write anything
about your size, but for someone who has been training for less than a
year, benching 6x245 is not common. It's not possible to adequately
answer complex questions in a forum like this one, but if your failure
at 5x225 was a one time event, then it's not significant, it could have
been caused by any number of things.

There is nothing inherently wrong with pyramiding, nor with a three day
split, though not my recommendation. If you really are injury prone,
it could be because you're overtraining (maxing every workout without a
break, too many reps/sets, too many exercises per body part ...) you
are using heavy weights and bad form ... If your injuries are primarily
related to the military press, than just stop doing it, at least for
now. You can make good progress without doing any standing presses,
there are other movements that will work the same muscles. Also, you
have to give your injury time to heal, which means working around it.
If it's severe, you also have to treat it.

An HST routine would probably be more appropriate for you now than when
you were a beginner, but it's not going to work miracles, and really it
doesn't work at all for lots of people. What you need is not so much a
radical change from your current three day split, what you need is to
find out what, specifically, you're doing wrong, and correct it.

Neal Fabian
visit my website; BIO, PHOTOS & ARTICLES
training advice and much more -- come by and meet me
http://hometown.aol.com/nfabian/myhomepage/index.html
HOW GOOD CAN YOU GET? is now up on my Website, in NEW STUFF, on the
cover page. Check it out. Also, I have a new B&W addition to my
gallery, by a terrific photographer who is new to physique art.
It's in ABSOLUTELY...PART II. My training program, ABSOLUTELY
EVERYTHING YOU NEED TO KNOW ABOUT DEVELOPING YOUR BODY, is up on the
site, and is free.

Quoted message said:

A newbie is likely to make good gains doing almost anything. HST is
not what would usually be recommended for a beginner. I wonder what
you could lift before you started training. You didn't write anything
about your size, but for someone who has been training for less than a
year, benching 6x245 is not common. It's not possible to adequately
answer complex questions in a forum like this one, but if your failure
at 5x225 was a one time event, then it's not significant, it could have
been caused by any number of things.

I would clarify one thing. I do not lower the bar too much. I stop half the
way down to my chest. Bad form? I won't be able to lift 245 if all the way
down. 🙂

BTW, HST is good for beginners, as far as I know. Because you do compound
excercises and increase load little by little.

Quoted message said:

There is nothing inherently wrong with pyramiding, nor with a three day
split, though not my recommendation. If you really are injury prone,
it could be because you're overtraining (maxing every workout without a
break, too many reps/sets, too many exercises per body part ...) you
are using heavy weights and bad form ... If your injuries are primarily
related to the military press, than just stop doing it, at least for
now. You can make good progress without doing any standing presses,
there are other movements that will work the same muscles. Also, you
have to give your injury time to heal, which means working around it.
If it's severe, you also have to treat it.

The military press I am doing is on a rack and you sit on a chair which is
fixed on the rack. When I increase the weight I have to push my back agaist
the back of the chair, otherwise I feel the bar is unstable over my head.
AND you have to arch your back forward and bend your head and neck backwards
so that the bar can be lowered to your neck. I am wondering if standing is
better than sitting. If yes, then why they design the rack this way.

Quoted message said:

An HST routine would probably be more appropriate for you now than when
you were a beginner, but it's not going to work miracles, and really it
doesn't work at all for lots of people. What you need is not so much a
radical change from your current three day split, what you need is to
find out what, specifically, you're doing wrong, and correct it.

Thanks

Quoted message said:

Look at this periodization model
http://www.exrx.net/WeightTraining/Periodization.html
consider trying something like it.
It's just a simple method of keeping you progressing and not getting
stuck on a plateau or going backwards.
You'd think that by repeating the percentages
you're just reusing the old weights but you're not.
You should end up using heavier weights at, say
the 2nd round at 80% than you did during the 1st.
You don't have to do them for only one week a time either.

I am thinking doing each muscle twice a week. And I have a feeling that the
reason my strength level is not stable is because I train each muscle once a
week. After one week, the muscle will detrain. That's problem HST aims to
solve.

But how can you fit so many sets in a one-hour workout if you do every
exercise twice a week and average 4 sets per exercise.

"fj" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

The military press I am doing is on a rack and you sit on a chair which is
fixed on the rack. When I increase the weight I have to push my back
agaist
the back of the chair, otherwise I feel the bar is unstable over my head.
AND you have to arch your back forward and bend your head and neck
backwards
so that the bar can be lowered to your neck. I am wondering if standing is
better than sitting. If yes, then why they design the rack this way.

Gym equipment design has little or nothing to do with what is functional,
safe or effective.

Use dumbells or do a standing press. People are scared to death of free
standing movements these days. In the old days, this was done all the time.

Yep, that's right son. Back in the day, they did not even do bench presses.
And yet, amazingly, we survived as a species.

fj said:

Quoted message said:

Look at this periodization model
http://www.exrx.net/WeightTraining/Periodization.html
consider trying something like it.
It's just a simple method of keeping you progressing and not getting
stuck on a plateau or going backwards.
You'd think that by repeating the percentages
you're just reusing the old weights but you're not.
You should end up using heavier weights at, say
the 2nd round at 80% than you did during the 1st.
You don't have to do them for only one week a time either.

I am thinking doing each muscle twice a week. And I have a feeling that the
reason my strength level is not stable is because I train each muscle once a
week. After one week, the muscle will detrain. That's problem HST aims to
solve.

But how can you fit so many sets in a one-hour workout if you do every
exercise twice a week and average 4 sets per exercise.

Do fewer exercises. You don't need all that many.

Go back to the HST program then. Stop all the ab work...you'll get more than
enough ab work in a regular workout. Eat like a pig too...lots of protein,
complex carbs...keep an eye on fat intake. Diet is very important.

"fj" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

My goal is to gain muscle mass. I am 5'9". Depends on the mood of the

scale

Quoted message said:

in our gym, 168-175lb. Body fat around 12% I guess. I can see a little of

my

Quoted message said:

abs when I flex.

-fj

fj said:

Quoted message said:

A newbie is likely to make good gains doing almost anything. HST

is

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

not what would usually be recommended for a beginner. I wonder

what

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

you could lift before you started training. You didn't write

anything

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

about your size, but for someone who has been training for less

than a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

year, benching 6x245 is not common. It's not possible to

adequately

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

answer complex questions in a forum like this one, but if your

failure

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

at 5x225 was a one time event, then it's not significant, it could

have

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

been caused by any number of things.

I would clarify one thing. I do not lower the bar too much. I stop

half the

Quoted message said:

way down to my chest. Bad form?

No, not bad form. That's called a "partial," and it's appropriate as
an adjunct to full benches, both to increase strength, and to force
your way through a sticking point. It's not appropriate though, if
used instead of full benches.

Quoted message said:

I won't be able to lift 245 if all the way
down. 🙂

That explains a few things.

Quoted message said:

BTW, HST is good for beginners, as far as I know. Because you do

compound

Quoted message said:

excercises and increase load little by little.

Well, ummmm, no. HST is not the method of choice, for either a
beginner or an advanced lifter, if he's interested in developing
strength more or less proportionate to hypertrophy (that's arguable,
but this isn't the time). It's particularly inappropriate for
beginners because, among other reasons, no specialized routine is
likely to be recommended for a newbie. What a beginner needs is a
basic program that will work the entire body, using weight/sets/reps
that will accustom his muscles to what's being forced on them, and, for
the first few workouts, using relatively light weights, until he
becomes adjusted to training. I realize though, that you're no longer
a beginner.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

There is nothing inherently wrong with pyramiding, nor with a three

day

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

split, though not my recommendation. If you really are injury

prone,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

it could be because you're overtraining (maxing every workout

without a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

break, too many reps/sets, too many exercises per body part ...)

you

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

are using heavy weights and bad form ... If your injuries are

primarily

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

related to the military press, than just stop doing it, at least

for

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

now. You can make good progress without doing any standing

presses,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

there are other movements that will work the same muscles. Also,

you

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

have to give your injury time to heal, which means working around

it.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If it's severe, you also have to treat it.

The military press I am doing is on a rack and you sit on a chair

which is

Quoted message said:

fixed on the rack. When I increase the weight I have to push my back

agaist

Quoted message said:

the back of the chair, otherwise I feel the bar is unstable over my

head.

Quoted message said:

AND you have to arch your back forward and bend your head and neck

backwards

Quoted message said:

so that the bar can be lowered to your neck.

I think that the next time you post, you'll be asking how you can train
while in traction. It's hard to believe that you're serious. You are
forced to contort your body, because you're using too much weight.
Stop doing that.

Quoted message said:

I am wondering if standing is
better than sitting.

It isn't a matter of standing or sitting, it's a matter of too much
weight.

If yes, then why they design the rack this way.

They didn't; it's the way you're using it. WHO TOLD YOU TO DO THESE
THINGS?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

An HST routine would probably be more appropriate for you now than

when

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

you were a beginner, but it's not going to work miracles, and

really it

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

doesn't work at all for lots of people. What you need is not so

much a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

radical change from your current three day split, what you need is

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

find out what, specifically, you're doing wrong, and correct it.

Thanks

I'm usually a little more subtle in recommending my training program,
but this is not the time for subtlety. Take a rest from your training,
print out the program, read it, learn it, and practice it.
Everything's there. Do the four day program (working each muscle group
twice per week). It's all free, no gimmicks, I am not selling
anything. It isn't possible to give you what you need by posting in a
NG.

What are you waiting for? Go! Click on the URL! You'll love it.

Good luck.

Neal Fabian
visit my website; BIO, PHOTOS & ARTICLES
training advice and much more -- come by and meet me
http://hometown.aol.com/nfabian/myhomepage/index.html
Don't miss
HOW GOOD CAN YOU GET? it's now up on my Website, in NEW STUFF, on the
cover page. Check it out. Also, I have a new B&W addition to my
gallery, by a terrific photographer who is new to physique art.
It's in ABSOLUTELY...PART II. My training program, ABSOLUTELY
EVERYTHING YOU NEED TO KNOW ABOUT DEVELOPING YOUR BODY, is up on the
site, and it's free.

"fj" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

A newbie is likely to make good gains doing almost anything. HST is
not what would usually be recommended for a beginner. I wonder what
you could lift before you started training. You didn't write anything
about your size, but for someone who has been training for less than a
year, benching 6x245 is not common. It's not possible to adequately
answer complex questions in a forum like this one, but if your failure
at 5x225 was a one time event, then it's not significant, it could have
been caused by any number of things.

I would clarify one thing. I do not lower the bar too much. I stop half
the way down to my chest. Bad form? I won't be able to lift 245 if all
the way down. 🙂

Good God. Stop that right now. Less weight, full ROM, stop playing games.

Quoted message said:

BTW, HST is good for beginners, as far as I know. Because you do
compound excercises and increase load little by little.

What HST does, as you've discovered, is force you to spend most of your
time lifting less (often much less) than your absolute maximum. To the
extent that this is what beginners should do, yes, it's good for
beginners. (Negatives, though, aren't.)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

There is nothing inherently wrong with pyramiding, nor with a three day
split, though not my recommendation. If you really are injury prone,
it could be because you're overtraining (maxing every workout without a
break, too many reps/sets, too many exercises per body part ...) you
are using heavy weights and bad form ... If your injuries are primarily
related to the military press, than just stop doing it, at least for
now. You can make good progress without doing any standing presses,
there are other movements that will work the same muscles. Also, you
have to give your injury time to heal, which means working around it.
If it's severe, you also have to treat it.

The military press I am doing is on a rack and you sit on a chair which
is fixed on the rack. When I increase the weight I have to push my back
agaist the back of the chair, otherwise I feel the bar is unstable over
my head. AND you have to arch your back forward and bend your head and
neck backwards so that the bar can be lowered to your neck. I am
wondering if standing is better than sitting. If yes, then why they
design the rack this way.

What Lee said. Stand up. If you can't lift it safely standing, it's too
heavy.

Hugh

--
Run like hell and let the clowns deal with the bull.