HPV vs. Upright racing update

Jeff Potter wrote in message
<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

...........
Over in Oregon at the State TT, a fullyfaired velomobile did the 40km
in its own class and set a new course record of 46min. Interestingly,
the bike is a Quest, a full-featured commuter (cargo for groceries,
etc.), ridden by a self-declared 'regular guy,' not a top racer.
http://www.obra.org/results/2004/road/oregon_state_tt.html

Where can I find info on this Quest bike? What's the brand etc. Google
didn't turn up much.

- Tony

Quoted message said:

From: [email hidden] (Jeff Potter)

Quoted message said:

Other HPV racing (snip) flames at:

Omitted for probable lack of use <g>.

Faired = faster. Less frontal area = faster.

Write with news next time <second g>. Thanks. --TP

Who [censored]' cares?

'Bents still suck.

On 08/16/2004 10:32 AM, in article
[email hidden], "Jeff Potter"

Quoted message said:

There were a couple mixed-format/open events this summer where the
'bents put in a good show vs. the uprights. For those interested in
bike technology...

The Black Bear Challenge in July in Grayling, MI, was a rough road
headwind 100 mile open race with hills. Here are the stats as to how
it played out...

OVERALL PLACE, NAME, TIME

1 David Johnson M 47 3:38:20 27.5 FULLY FAIRED HPV
"GREAT WHITE"
2 Frank Geyer M 36 4:13:43 23.6 STOCK 'BENT
UNFAIRED
3 Norman Licht M 46 4:18:17 23.2 FRENZIED CHASE
GROUP OF UPRIGHTS
4 Derek Prechtl M 30 4:18:17 23.2 "
5 Jared Gilyard M 20 4:18:18 23.2 "
6 Clifford Onthank M 50 4:18:18 23.2 "
7 Charles Rennie M 37 4:21:39 22.9 "
8 Paul Monkman M 36 4:21:41 22.9 ANOTHER 'BENT
(At least four other 'bents finished in top 50, under 4:45.)

So...1 and 2 and three in top 10, not bad.

Over in Oregon at the State TT, a fullyfaired velomobile did the 40km
in its own class and set a new course record of 46min. Interestingly,
the bike is a Quest, a full-featured commuter (cargo for groceries,
etc.), ridden by a self-declared 'regular guy,' not a top racer.
http://www.obra.org/results/2004/road/oregon_state_tt.html

In HPV-record-land, Sam Whittingham and Varna set a new World Hour
Record of 52.2 miles / 84.2km.

Other HPV racing discussions/flames at:
http://p206.ezboard.com/fbentrideronlinefrm12.

--JP
outyourbackdoor.com

--
Steven L. Sheffield
stevens at veloworks dot com
veloworks at worldnet dot ay tea tee dot net
bellum pax est libertas servitus est ignoratio vis est
ess ay ell tea ell ay kay ee sea eye tee why you ti ay aitch
aitch tee tea pea colon [for word] slash [four ward] slash double-you
double-yew double-ewe dot veloworks dot com [four word] slash

"Steven L. Sheffield" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Who [censored]' cares?

'Bents still suck.

Uh, well, it's bike racing news. And obviously bents don't suck. They
win. Anyone interested in winning? Clue: bike racing and technology
intersect. And keep intersecting and developing. Fancy-tubing,
aero-accessories and STI on uprights isn't the end of the story. Those
who want to go farther and faster can. As my report showed.

Steve...any other bikes you don't like? Folders, tandems, mtbikes,
fixies, singles?

Me, I like em all and, gosh, I see how they all might have a place in
racing. And I like to know when and where they have advantages or do
well. Here we see that 'bents did well in some long open-road events.
So those who think that 'bents are slow (and ridden by fat bearded
nerds) well, they can see that ain't always so. This might help them
look at bike racing differently and more openly, especially for open
events.

--JP
outyourbackdoor.com

[email hidden] (Tom Paterson) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...
[ ]

Quoted message said:

Faired = faster. Less frontal area = faster.

Write with news next time <second g>. Thanks. --TP

Actually, it hasn't been common to see unfaired 'bents at the top of a
results sheet in a 100 mile road race. So it is news.

But it will be more common as more racer-types start riding 'bents or
adding a bent to their mix (the second seems to be what's happening).
It was especially cute to see the pack stats right on his heels a few
minutes back. It's also still a common myth that bents are slow and
ridden by slow riders. (And even tho they sometimes have smaller
frontal area not all of them do. And most are heavier. So comparisons
haven't always given faster speeds.)

So it was news in several respects. Besides, race results always are,
eh?

--JP
outyourbackdoor.com

"Tony" <qtrader2@(remove)hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<lH6Uc.9107$k63.8476@trndny03>...
[ ]

Quoted message said:

Where can I find info on this Quest bike? What's the brand etc. Google
didn't turn up much.

Yeah, velomobiles haven't been known for being fast but it looks like
their R&D people are now making commuters that double as fast race
bikes! Not bad!

Here's the Dutch guys who make the Quest and who handle other
velomobiles as well:

http://www.velomobiel.nl/

Here's a link on the US 'bent site about velomobiles with Quest info:

bentrideronline.comvelomobileguide.htmOpen ↗

These folks also make something very close, or maybe the same thing as
the Quest. I believe they were involved in the Quest early on:

http://www.flevobike.nl/indexmodellen.html

--JP
outyourbackdoor.com

[email hidden] (Jeff Potter) wrote .google.com>...

Quoted message said:

"Steven L. Sheffield" <.com>...

Quoted message said:

Who [censored]' cares?

'Bents still suck.

Uh, well, it's bike racing news. And obviously bents don't suck. They
win. Anyone interested in winning? Clue: bike racing and technology
intersect. And keep intersecting and developing. Fancy-tubing,
aero-accessories and STI on uprights isn't the end of the story. Those
who want to go farther and faster can. As my report showed.

Steve...any other bikes you don't like? Folders, tandems, mtbikes,
fixies, singles?

Me, I like em all and, gosh, I see how they all might have a place in
racing. And I like to know when and where they have advantages or do
well. Here we see that 'bents did well in some long open-road events.
So those who think that 'bents are slow (and ridden by fat bearded
nerds) well, they can see that ain't always so. This might help them
look at bike racing differently and more openly, especially for open
events.

Steven still won't care. One thing he DOES care about is breaking RBR
charter and trying to sell his old stuff (he occasionally cross-posts
to RBR and RBM when it suits him).

-Ken

[email hidden] (Jeff Potter) wrote .google.com>...

Quoted message said:

"Steven L. Sheffield" <.com>...

Quoted message said:

Who [censored]' cares?

'Bents still suck.

Uh, well, it's bike racing news. And obviously bents don't suck. They
win. Anyone interested in winning? Clue: bike racing and technology
intersect. And keep intersecting and developing. Fancy-tubing,
aero-accessories and STI on uprights isn't the end of the story. Those
who want to go farther and faster can. As my report showed.

Steve...any other bikes you don't like? Folders, tandems, mtbikes,
fixies, singles?

Me, I like em all and, gosh, I see how they all might have a place in
racing. And I like to know when and where they have advantages or do
well. Here we see that 'bents did well in some long open-road events.
So those who think that 'bents are slow (and ridden by fat bearded
nerds) well, they can see that ain't always so. This might help them
look at bike racing differently and more openly, especially for open
events.

Steven still won't care. One thing he DOES care about is breaking RBR
charter and trying to sell his old stuff (he occasionally cross-posts
to RBR and RBM when it suits him).

-Ken

Jeff Potter said:

Over in Oregon at the State TT, a fullyfaired velomobile did the 40km
in its own class and set a new course record of 46min. Interestingly,
the bike is a Quest, a full-featured commuter (cargo for groceries,
etc.), ridden by a self-declared 'regular guy,' not a top racer.
http://www.obra.org/results/2004/road/oregon_state_tt.html

Having been associated with this event for 15 years or so this struck me as
incorrect so we searched through the records. The fastest time on that
course for an HPV was:

Ron Elder 43:44 1991

Elder used an upright fully fairinged 2 wheel vehicle. He was also a
competent Cat 2 bike racer at the time. There were 7 HPVs entered that year
and only one other went under 1 hour. In fact, the average HPV time was
actually slower than the average time for the faster category bike racers.
That year John Williams, who rode the Quest this year, did a 1:12:30. I do
not know in what vehicle. Looking through the records it looks like Williams
has competed every year and has steadily gotten faster. For reference, the
fastest time on a bicycle is 51:20 by Karl Maxon in 1992. My conclusion from
all of this is that to make HPVs faster it would be better to spend more
time on engine design and function and less on chassis design.

Mike Murray

"Mike Murray" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<eSfVc.289380$%_6.211553@attbi_s01>...

Quoted message said:

Jeff Potter said:

Over in Oregon at the State TT, a fullyfaired velomobile did the 40km
in its own class and set a new course record of 46min. Interestingly,
the bike is a Quest, a full-featured commuter (cargo for groceries,
etc.), ridden by a self-declared 'regular guy,' not a top racer.
http://www.obra.org/results/2004/road/oregon_state_tt.html

Having been associated with this event for 15 years or so this struck me as
incorrect so we searched through the records. The fastest time on that
course for an HPV was:

Ron Elder 43:44 1991

THANKS FOR THE CORRECTION. Both fast times, eh? John Williams on the
Quest is 54 yrs old (as I recall).

Quoted message said:

[ ] My conclusion from
all of this is that to make HPVs faster it would be better to spend more
time on engine design and function and less on chassis design.

My conclusion from the same data is that bikes vary widely in
performance. It's surprising that one would downplay a bike "chassic"
design that can take 10-20 minutes off of a 40k, come close to the
record, and be useful for commuting and grocery-hauling. Fitness
doesn't do that much.

I fully agree that the engine is a huge factor, but in the world of
unlimited bike design one can greatly improve many "chassic"
factors---speed, comfort, utility, safety.

Bike racing is about the rider, sure, but it's also about
technology---significantly so in every sector but hugely so in the
"just plain bikes" sector----when you take away rules a bike can be
made to do A WHOLE LOT including giving you a lot of speed.

I myself ride upright bikes most of the time at this point, but I sure
do also appreciate and enjoy the 40mph cruising I can do on my
fullyfaired HPV---with a bag of groceries inside. It's a 15-yr-old
design that's done well in a ton of races and also around town, and
still kicks butt. Sure, some HPVs aren't fast but mine delivers. As
does John's Quest! (An example of the benefits of a good "chassis" is
that the custom suspension developed for my HPV was used on many other
bikes afterward, to good effect. Not all custom efforts pay off, but
this one did. I think it's worth continuing to experiment and see how
much more human power can deliver...and how versatile it can be made
as well...and how much cheaper and more reliable it can be made, too.
All interesting areas in racing R&D, too. ---JP