how to work this.

[email hidden] said...

Quoted message said:

Fran said:

Oh. OK. I'll just say then that I might be about to embark on my
first solo backpack in a fortnight's time; actually it'll be my
first backpack and my first solo, so it'll be a double first.

Oooh! Tell us all about it then. Where are you going? Will you be
using the A-PA1?

Well, if it's likely to be ipssnig down I'm unlikely to be
wanting to crawl out of a tent into the wet stuff - not my cup of
tea at all. My planned location is somewhere around the source
of the R. Teifi in the Teifi Pools area, not far from
Pontrydfendigaid and Strata Florida Abbey. Typically, my map of
the area is sitting in storage at the moment (I'm slowly clearing
the house for major work to be done), so I'm reduced to looking
at multimap and the like until I can get to a friend's house
(possibly) to borrow his map. The rough area is here:
http://tinyurl.com/4c2n9

I'm not sure yet exactly where I'll camp or how far I'll want to
be walking - and as I said if it's likely to be too wet I'll doss
down with a friend instead and just go out for the day. I'm
escaping a D&D weekend at home, so I might even have my 14 yr old
daughter with me... but I really hope not, because she doesn't
like camping or walking so if I'm saddled with her for the
weekend I'll have make alternative plans pronto. And yes, I'll
be taking the A-PA1. None of my 2-man tents are light enough to
be carried comfortably, or at least, not by me.
--
I try to be a good example to my children, but they just see me
as a dire warning.

[email hidden] said...

Quoted message said:

On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 21:23:45 +0100, Darren G <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

At least the kids only send *one* each :-)

They would never know if their post didn't reach the server ..... they
only have one hour on 'puters then they have to go to their Basic
Literacy class.

.... which, if the evidence here is anything to go by, they should
all fail.
--
I try to be a good example to my children, but they just see me
as a dire warning.

Fran said:

My planned location is somewhere around the source
of the R. Teifi in the Teifi Pools area, not far from
Pontrydfendigaid and Strata Florida Abbey.

I'm planning to camp around there sometime too. You can drive up to the
pools and I suspect there may be some nice spots to pitch next to some
of them, ideally out of sight of the road, but I can't be sure.

Be warned that there are a lot of bogs in that general area, and a lot
of rough grassland, so it might not be easy to find a good spot to
pitch, but having said that I've found camp sites all over that area.
One was next to the Afon Claerwen a mile east of Llyn Egnant.

I've also read on a website the building called Claerwen two miles to
the east of the pools is a bothy. Can't verify that personally, but it
might be a nice place to spend the night if the weather is bad.

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk
http://www.wildwales.fsnet.co.uk

The message <[email hidden]>
from Fran <[email hidden]> contains these words:

Quoted message said:

.... which, if the evidence here is anything to go by, they should
all fail.

Children today are not allowed to be failures. Some just do rather less
well than their more able peers.
Another 58 years and if A levels are still around the only way to avoid
an A grade will be not to turn up at any of the lessons. It is already
theoretically possible to obtain an A grade without even taking the exam
at the end of a course. :-)

--
Roger Chapman so far this year 69 summits
New - 47 (Marilyns 13, Sweats 5, Outlying Fells 35)
Repeats - 22( Marilyns 7, Sweats 16, Wainwrights 16)

Roger <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Children today are not allowed to be failures. Some just do rather less
well than their more able peers.
Another 58 years and if A levels are still around the only way to avoid
an A grade will be not to turn up at any of the lessons. It is already
theoretically possible to obtain an A grade without even taking the exam
at the end of a course. :-)

I always dismays me when I hear that teachers' assessments and course
work are playing a larger part than examinations in deciding grades.

My daughter got the highest 11-plus marks that the school had achieved
at that time, but the teacher/headmaster's selection of the top four
pupils for special coaching did not include her.

I made an appointment to see him and asked him why the special coaching
was not aimed at the lower achievement pupils, and he said that he had
selected the four as possible entries for a prestige Manchester school,
which had it's own syllabus for it's entrance exam.....
--
Gordon

Fran said:

[email hidden] said...

Quoted message said:

On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 21:23:45 +0100, Darren G <[email hidden]>
wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

At least the kids only send *one* each :-)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

They would never know if their post didn't reach the server ..... they
only have one hour on 'puters then they have to go to their Basic
Literacy class.

Quoted message said:

... which, if the evidence here is anything to go by, they should
all fail.

That's a nasty old-fashioned concept. Educational research has
established that failing people leads to feelings that one hasn't done
very well and is inferior to people who have passed. Not only is this
personally hurtful to the failed person, but it also has nasty social
consequences like elitism and snobbery, where those who have passed
look down as a group on those who have failed as being in some way
inferior.

--
Chris Malcolm [email hidden] +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

Bitstring <[email hidden]>, from the wonderful person
Chris Malcolm <[email hidden]> said

Quoted message said:

Fran said:

[email hidden] said...

Quoted message said:

On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 21:23:45 +0100, Darren G <[email hidden]>
wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>At least the kids only send *one* each :-)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

They would never know if their post didn't reach the server ..... they
only have one hour on 'puters then they have to go to their Basic
Literacy class.

Quoted message said:

... which, if the evidence here is anything to go by, they should
all fail.

That's a nasty old-fashioned concept. Educational research has
established that failing people leads to feelings that one hasn't done
very well and is inferior to people who have passed. Not only is this
personally hurtful to the failed person, but it also has nasty social
consequences like elitism and snobbery, where those who have passed
look down as a group on those who have failed as being in some way
inferior.

Ah, now I begin to understand why we have some wonderful health
services, government, education, etc. 8>.

--
GSV Three Minds in a Can
Outgoing Msgs are Turing Tested,and indistinguishable from human typing.

I noticed that Message-ID:
<[email hidden]> from Fran contained the
following:

Quoted message said:

I might even have my 14 yr old
daughter with me... but I really hope not, because she doesn't
like camping or walking

I've got one of those...

--
Geoff Berrow (put thecat out to email)
It's only Usenet, no one dies.
My opinions, not the committee's, mine.
Simple RFDs http://www.ckdog.co.uk/rfdmaker/

I noticed that Message-ID: <[email hidden]> from Chris
Malcolm contained the following:

Quoted message said:

That's a nasty old-fashioned concept. Educational research has
established that failing people leads to feelings that one hasn't done
very well and is inferior to people who have passed. Not only is this
personally hurtful to the failed person, but it also has nasty social
consequences like elitism and snobbery, where those who have passed
look down as a group on those who have failed as being in some way
inferior.

In the context of that in which they have failed, they are. The
solution is not to create a situation where no one fails (since that
devalues the successful and de-motivates everyone) but rather to
concentrate on the total net worth of the person and in helping them
achieve success in areas that best suit their skills and talents.

--
Geoff Berrow (put thecat out to email)
It's only Usenet, no one dies.
My opinions, not the committee's, mine.
Simple RFDs http://www.ckdog.co.uk/rfdmaker/

Fran said:

The rough area is here:
http://tinyurl.com/4c2n9

Looks good. Lots of water!

I really must head down there myself sometime.

I'm thinking of taking a week off work in November and heading into
mid/south Wales. Really I should have the maps out now and be
planning routes ...... but I'll just wait till I'm on the train going
there as usual!

Have fun

Judith

On Sat, 16 Oct 2004 11:17:47 +0100, Geoff Berrow <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

The
solution is not to create a situation where no one fails (since that
devalues the successful and de-motivates everyone)

"Oh, a Certificate. Thank You. I shall put it with the others."

Judith

[email hidden] said...

Quoted message said:

Fran said:

My planned location is somewhere around the source
of the R. Teifi in the Teifi Pools area, not far from
Pontrydfendigaid and Strata Florida Abbey.

I'm planning to camp around there sometime too. You can drive up to the
pools and I suspect there may be some nice spots to pitch next to some
of them, ideally out of sight of the road, but I can't be sure.

I've driven up there with the boys once. Just went to the end of
what passed for a recognisable road (I was in the red minibus so
any further would have been impractical) and stopped at the side.
No one around for miles, until some 4x4s came charging down the
hill ahead... The actual lakes do seem to be well out of sight
of the road, and beautifully unpopulated by twofoots. The water
therein didn't kill us after it had been boiled to within an inch
of its life, and great (if a tad cold for the boys) fun was had
by all.

Quoted message said:

Be warned that there are a lot of bogs in that general area, and a lot
of rough grassland, so it might not be easy to find a good spot to
pitch, but having said that I've found camp sites all over that area.
One was next to the Afon Claerwen a mile east of Llyn Egnant.

Thanks. Yes, it is certainly on the damp side; however soft
ground appeals to me as a bed under the tent so as long as it's
not absolutely sodden, leaving me sleeping below ground level...

Quoted message said:

I've also read on a website the building called Claerwen two miles to
the east of the pools is a bothy.

Coo!

Quoted message said:

Can't verify that personally, but it
might be a nice place to spend the night if the weather is bad.

# A-googling I will go, a-googling I will go
# To find a bothy on the web
# A-googling I will go

--
I try to be a good example to my children, but they just see me
as a dire warning.

Chris Malcolm said:

Quoted message said:

all fail.

That's a nasty old-fashioned concept. Educational research has
established that failing people leads to feelings that one hasn't done
very well

There's also the phenomenon of the computer game, traditionally played
solo against the computer, usually with the aid of "cheats" to help less
capable players to beat the computer (if easy mode is too tough for
them). This has also contributed to the expectation of winning every
time. I've seen younger folk have tantrums when they can't beat the
computer - "this is a stupid game - I'm not playing this again".

When interrogating my nephews about their default use of cheats (they
actually load the cheats before they even attempt to play it properly),
they've insisted that they make the game "more fun". It seems that
winning (cheating) is "fun", but facing a challenge is "boring".

I once made a comment on an RPG newsgroup about RPG games being
impossible to complete without cheating, i.e. saving and reloading
whenever one of you characters dies, and a huge uproar ensued. Most
were deeply offended by my use of the word cheating and insisted that
saving and reloading couldn't be considered cheating since they were
options provided in the game. I tried to explain that the save feature
was there because the games take far too long to play in one sitting,
not in order for you to undo anything bad that happens to you in the
game. I couldn't get through to them though, they absolutely would not
accept the concept that they were cheating and pretty much crucified me
for suggesting such an offensive thing. I was gobsmacked at the unity
of their reactions.

Actually my main point was these games seem to be designed so that they
can't be completed *without* cheating, I certainly couldn't. I think
that since the designers expect people to cheat, they've made them
correspondingly more difficult, too difficult IMO. They even provide
Quicksave and Quickload keyboard shortcuts to speed up the process. I'd
prefer a slightly easier challenge where a few characters may get killed
but in which it's still possible to win without cheating.

Originally I think cheats were included by the game designers to help
them test the game, and certain hacker types discovered them. Nowadays
they are included with the intention of letting the player use them, and
are even using them as a marketing tool, where you can "buy" cheats or
get them from premium rate phone calls.

The cheat culture eh? Failure is not an option!

Doesn't anyone enjoy a challenge anymore? Losing makes winning far more
satisfying when it happens.

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk
http://www.wildwales.fsnet.co.uk

[email hidden] said...

Quoted message said:

The message <[email hidden]>
from Fran <[email hidden]> contains these words:

Quoted message said:

.... which, if the evidence here is anything to go by, they should
all fail.

Children today are not allowed to be failures. Some just do rather less
well than their more able peers.

*Sigh* Tell me about it. Bloody daft, innit. Poor ickle fings,
how will they feel if they fail? All that negativity can't be
good for their poor ickle brains, an it. Stuff and nonsense.
The occasional "sorry, you've failed, now go and do something
about it, like put some effort in next time" would doubtless do
the little idiots the world of good and might just make them
realise that things in this world have to be damn' well worked
for - and hard. If it's any consolation several teachers of my
acquaintance think it's stupid as well; however there's very
little they can do about it. Sad to report though, there are
also teachers around who agree with the new-fangled attitude of
not telling the silly little osds that they're shaping up to be a
waste of space.

Quoted message said:

Another 58 years and if A levels are still around the only way to avoid
an A grade will be not to turn up at any of the lessons. It is already
theoretically possible to obtain an A grade without even taking the exam
at the end of a course. :-)

Well, not quite... but then again not far off.
--
I try to be a good example to my children, but they just see me
as a dire warning.

[email hidden] said...

Quoted message said:

Fran said:

[email hidden] said...

Quoted message said:

On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 21:23:45 +0100, Darren G <[email hidden]>
wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>At least the kids only send *one* each :-)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

They would never know if their post didn't reach the server ..... they
only have one hour on 'puters then they have to go to their Basic
Literacy class.

Quoted message said:

... which, if the evidence here is anything to go by, they should
all fail.

That's a nasty old-fashioned concept. Educational research has
established that failing people leads to feelings that one hasn't done
very well and is inferior to people who have passed.

Diddums.

Quoted message said:

Not only is this
personally hurtful to the failed person, but it also has nasty social
consequences like elitism and snobbery, where those who have passed
look down as a group on those who have failed as being in some way
inferior.

Well gosh. You know, there's a simple answer to that one. Try
again, and this time work at it. It worked for me; it's worked
for other people; it can work for anyone who wants it to.

Bear in mind that I'm the mother of 5 children who if they don't
work at their education will get no sympathy from me at all. If
they fail but they have still tried their best it may be
different; if they fail because they can't be arsed to get off
their backsides and put some effort in, they can forget it.
Further, bear in mind that I work in a primary school and see the
results first hand.
--

[email hidden] said...

Quoted message said:

I noticed that Message-ID:
<[email hidden]> from Fran contained the
following:

Quoted message said:

I might even have my 14 yr old
daughter with me... but I really hope not, because she doesn't
like camping or walking

I've got one of those...

Perhaps we can send 'em off together to a YHA somewhere so that
they can gripe about their respective parents in the privacy of
their own 8-bed dorm - while we get on with the walking and
suchlike, safe in the knowledge that whatever else gets chilled,
our ears will still be warm...
--
I try to be a good example to my children, but they just see me
as a dire warning.

I noticed that Message-ID:
<[email hidden]> from Fran contained the
following:

Quoted message said:

Sad to report though, there are
also teachers around who agree with the new-fangled attitude of
not telling the silly little osds that they're shaping up to be a
waste of space.

I'm a teacher, or was. I work as a college lecturer now.

IME the kids are well aware that they are a waste of space. The
difficulty is getting them to do anything about it.

--
Geoff Berrow (put thecat out to email)
It's only Usenet, no one dies.
My opinions, not the committee's, mine.
Simple RFDs http://www.ckdog.co.uk/rfdmaker/

I noticed that Message-ID: <[email hidden]>
from Judith contained the following:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The
solution is not to create a situation where no one fails (since that
devalues the successful and de-motivates everyone)

"Oh, a Certificate. Thank You. I shall put it with the others."

Absolutely! There are far to many quals they can take.

Did you perhaps miss the double negative?

--
Geoff Berrow (put thecat out to email)
It's only Usenet, no one dies.
My opinions, not the committee's, mine.
Simple RFDs http://www.ckdog.co.uk/rfdmaker/

Gordon <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

which had it's own syllabus for it's entrance exam.....

Sorry - my random apostrophe generator kicked in....
--
Gordon

Fran said:

Well gosh. You know, there's a simple answer to that one. Try
again, and this time work at it. It worked for me; it's worked
for other people; it can work for anyone who wants it to.

I'm not sure I fully agree with you. I believe that we all have
things we are good at and things we are not good at. Some people are
blessed by being good at a lot more things that they are bad at. Some
people just don't seem to be good at anything. "Trying harder" is not
always the key to doing better.

However, I do not approve of the "Everyone's a winner" approach to
education. Personally, I need an element of competition in order to
do well. This can take the form of a straight competition with fellow
students ie who gets the highest mark in the test, or can be based on
a progress monitor eg by this stage you should be able to achieve this
thing.

(Don't read this next bit if you're offended by intellectual elitism!)

I've always been relatively bright. I didn't do a huge amount of work
at school but managed to get reasonable (for the late-80's) O and A
Level results. (They would be seen as below average now!). I went to
a Grammar school, so even the not-so-bright girls achieved a good
clutch of exam results. Here's the question ..... how on Earth do you
motivate kids who are not very clever? I know that I often switch off
when confronted with things I don't understand. So, how do you keep
kids interested if they're struggling with Maths and English and
Science and all the other things the curriculum seems to be crammed
full of now?

(I do hope no-one is offended by the Off Topic question. I am
genuinely interested).

Judith