How to touch wheels and not fall off?

On 5/27/08 5:14 PM, in article
[email hidden], "Jeff

Potter (of OutYourBackdoor.com) said:

What's the drill for this again?

I know, you go ride on the grass and give it a try. But what are you
actually supposed to do if you touch wheels? (I googled this and found
one description---it said to steer away rather than turn away which I
suppose meant instead of lean away, but I need more info than that.)

It's been a long time since I've done it and I haven't crashed any of
the times that I have (knock knock) but everyone who does it on the
club rides that I go on always does crash. So what are they doing
wrong? And what is the right way?

--JP
allbikemag.com

Go on another club ride...........

On Tue, 27 May 2008 17:14:28 -0700 (PDT), "Jeff Potter (of

OutYourBackdoor.com) said:

What's the drill for this again?

I know, you go ride on the grass and give it a try. But what are you
actually supposed to do if you touch wheels? (I googled this and found
one description---it said to steer away rather than turn away which I
suppose meant instead of lean away, but I need more info than that.)

It's been a long time since I've done it and I haven't crashed any of
the times that I have (knock knock) but everyone who does it on the
club rides that I go on always does crash. So what are they doing
wrong?

Panicking.

Quoted message said:

And what is the right way?

Don't let the wheel in front of you turn your front wheel. Usually
that means pushing back with your wheel, but being ready to stop doing
that the instant there is separation.

JT

Jeff Potter (of OutYourBackdoor.com) said:

What's the drill for this again?

I know, you go ride on the grass and give it a try. But what are you
actually supposed to do if you touch wheels? (I googled this and found
one description---it said to steer away rather than turn away which I
suppose meant instead of lean away, but I need more info than that.)

It's been a long time since I've done it and I haven't crashed any of
the times that I have (knock knock) but everyone who does it on the
club rides that I go on always does crash. So what are they doing
wrong? And what is the right way?

--JP
allbikemag.com

It's easy, just be the guy who's rear wheel hits the other guy's front
wheel. If the guy ahead of you swerves and his rear wheel hits your
front wheel, your front wheel will be forced to turn and you will
fall. The only possibilities of escaping involve turning with him, or
braking so your front wheel is steerable again, but I doubt anyone has
fast enough reflexes to do that in time.
-Paul

Paul G. said:

If the guy ahead of you swerves and his rear wheel hits your
front wheel, your front wheel will be forced to turn and you will
fall. The only possibilities of escaping involve turning with him, or
braking so your front wheel is steerable again, but I doubt anyone has
fast enough reflexes to do that in time.

If you ever get a chance, watch final sprint of Gent-Wevelgem 2004
from above. Kirsipuu comes across Hammonds front wheel for a solid 3
or 4 second and Hammonds holds it up and doesn't crash.

Also, braking is not good in that situation. Fighting agains the
force trying to turn your wheel is usually best.

On May 27, 6:24 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 27 May 2008 17:56:41 -0700 (PDT), "Paul G."

Quoted message said:

If the guy ahead of you swerves and his rear wheel hits your
front wheel, your front wheel will be forced to turn and you will
fall. The only possibilities of escaping involve turning with him, or
braking so your front wheel is steerable again, but I doubt anyone has
fast enough reflexes to do that in time.

If you ever get a chance, watch final sprint of Gent-Wevelgem 2004
from above. Kirsipuu comes across Hammonds front wheel for a solid 3
or 4 second and Hammonds holds it up and doesn't crash.

Also, braking is not good in that situation. Fighting agains the
force trying to turn your wheel is usually best.

Obviously there could be many degrees of overlapping and amounts of
force applied by a rear wheel to a front wheel, and unless you can
produce a link to a video I have no idea exactly what happened in the
case you cite. However, if someone overlaps your front wheel by a
couple of inches and continues to cross in front of you, as is
typical, the leverage and his momentum against your front wheel are
going to be very hard to overcome. If he barely touches you, of course
you have a chance, but if his momentum carries him 6" across your
wheel you're screwed.

Braking would theoretically save your ass if you could do it fast
enough, as it would free your wheel. However, as I noted, it's
doubtful anyone has fast enough reflexes.
-Paul

Jeff Potter (of OutYourBackdoor.com) said:

What's the drill for this again?

I know, you go ride on the grass and give it a try. But what are you
actually supposed to do if you touch wheels? (I googled this and found
one description---it said to steer away rather than turn away which I
suppose meant instead of lean away, but I need more info than that.)

It's been a long time since I've done it and I haven't crashed any of
the times that I have (knock knock) but everyone who does it on the
club rides that I go on always does crash. So what are they doing
wrong? And what is the right way?

dumbass,

if you lean with your wheel into the wheel in front of you, it will
support you. you can actually bang someone's rear wheel with your
front pretty hard if you want.

it is fun to do in crits and on group rides and is a good way to weed
out douchebags.

Paul G. said:

On May 27, 6:24 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 27 May 2008 17:56:41 -0700 (PDT), "Paul G."

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If the guy ahead of you swerves and his rear wheel hits your
front wheel, your front wheel will be forced to turn and you will
fall.  The only possibilities of escaping involve turning with him, or
braking so your front wheel is steerable again, but I doubt anyone has
fast enough reflexes to do that in time.

Quoted message said:

If you ever get a chance, watch final sprint of  Gent-Wevelgem 2004
from above.  Kirsipuu comes across Hammonds front wheel for a solid 3
or 4 second and Hammonds holds it up and doesn't crash.

Quoted message said:

Also, braking is not good in that situation.  Fighting agains the
force trying to turn your wheel is usually best.

Obviously there could be many degrees of overlapping and amounts of
force applied by a rear wheel to a front wheel, and unless you can
produce a link to a video I have no idea exactly what happened in the
case you cite.  However, if someone overlaps your front wheel by a
couple of inches and continues to cross in front of you, as is
typical, the leverage and his momentum against your front wheel are
going to be very hard to overcome. If he barely touches you, of course
you have a chance, but if his momentum carries him 6" across your
wheel you're screwed.

Braking would theoretically save your ass if you could do it fast
enough, as it would free your wheel. However, as I noted, it's
doubtful anyone has fast enough reflexes.

Dumbass -

That is incorrect (the statement about the reflexes).

thanks,

K. Gringioni.

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Jeff Potter (of OutYourBackdoor.com) said:

What's the drill for this again?

I know, you go ride on the grass and give it a try. But what are you
actually supposed to do if you touch wheels? (I googled this and found
one description---it said to steer away rather than turn away which I
suppose meant instead of lean away, but I need more info than that.)

It's been a long time since I've done it and I haven't crashed any of
the times that I have (knock knock) but everyone who does it on the
club rides that I go on always does crash. So what are they doing
wrong? And what is the right way?

As someone who has spent a relatively large amount of time with my
wheels in weird places and a relatively small amount of time lying on
the ground, bleeding, I'd suggest that the best advice is not to panic.

The one time I found myself actually touching wheels, myself and the
other (very experienced) rider were going through a corner near the
front of the club ride.

Neither of us panicked, and we just, well...rode it out. We were
side-by-side; it was our front wheels that touched.

My undertutored theory is that most crashes result from over-controlling
rather than under-controlling, and maybe not being quite as focused
about keeping it upright (target fixation is fun!) as not-crashy riders
are.

Also, riders shouldn't generally touch wheels. That's always a good
plan. I've wacked a rear wheel once or twice with my front, and the only
advice I can offer is not to panic, and to focus on staying upright.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

Paul G. said:

Braking would theoretically save your ass if you could do it fast
enough, as it would free your wheel. However, as I noted, it's
doubtful anyone has fast enough reflexes.

No, braking would be bad, even in if you were fast enough. Braking
reduces ones control over the bike and puts more weight forward.

Amit Ghosh said:

if you lean with your wheel into the wheel in front of you, it will
support you. you can actually bang someone's rear wheel with your
front pretty hard if you want.

Around here that is known as "giving someone a hug".

Joseph

On May 28, 11:40 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 27 May 2008 21:15:22 -0700 (PDT), "Paul G."

Quoted message said:

Braking would theoretically save your ass if you could do it fast
enough, as it would free your wheel. However, as I noted, it's
doubtful anyone has fast enough reflexes.

No, braking would be bad, even in if you were fast enough.  Braking
reduces ones control over the bike and puts more weight forward.

Entirely true. As was your previous reply about not panicing and
leaning into the contact. But some judicious braking can be wise to
keep the overlap from getting bigger, if the rider ahead has lower
speed. Sometimes standing can help by moving the bike back a bit, just
enough to disengage. But ingeneral it is best to lean into it until
you regain your balance and "bounce" off. I suppose if one wanted to
practice, one could ride up slowly to a park bench or something and do
a track stand of sorts with the front wheel turned into the bench. In
other words the wheel touching the bench and the pressure on the bars
is what keep the rider up. Do that for a while, then "push" off with
the bars and continue riding.

I usually ride with one finger always on a brake if I am in some
situation where wheel touching may occur.

Yesterday I found myself in the middle of a big 9-guy crash, and I
attibute in no small part my lack of panic and limited brake use with
keeping me from going down. Some of the guys in the crash had no
options, but lots of them crashed IMO due to overzealous braking and
over-correction and poor control due to heavy braking. I focused on
steering.

Joseph

Quoted message said:

Yesterday I found myself in the middle of a big 9-guy crash, and I
attibute in no small part my lack of panic and limited brake use with
keeping me from going down. Some of the guys in the crash had no options,
but lots of them crashed IMO due to overzealous braking and
over-correction and poor control due to heavy braking. I focused on
steering.

Doing a bit of mountain biking helps with that as it teaches you to
be alert and not to panic when large objects materialize in your
trajectory.

On May 28, 2:40 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 27 May 2008 21:15:22 -0700 (PDT), "Paul G."

Quoted message said:

Braking would theoretically save your ass if you could do it fast
enough, as it would free your wheel. However, as I noted, it's
doubtful anyone has fast enough reflexes.

No, braking would be bad, even in if you were fast enough. Braking
reduces ones control over the bike and puts more weight forward.

Nothing "reduces one's control" like having one's front wheel turned
by someone else's rear wheel. I'd be happy to demonstrate. Let's make
it interesting, say $100 if you can stay upright after I clip your
front wheel with my rear. 6" of overlap ( I don't want your skewer
tearing up my spokes), we start with our wheels 12" apart. I cut in
front of you, you hit the deck and I collect the $100. Starbucks. Be
there. You'll be wearing purple afterwards, that's for sure. Unlimited
refills, just bring $100 for each match.

And how about a side bet- another $100 says I don't fall. That's one
of the most maddening things, the guy who cuts in front of you barely
notices the contact, and wonders why all those guys piled up behind
him.
-Paul

Paul G. said:

On May 28, 2:40 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 27 May 2008 21:15:22 -0700 (PDT), "Paul G."

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Braking would theoretically save your ass if you could do it fast
enough, as it would free your wheel. However, as I noted, it's
doubtful anyone has fast enough reflexes.

Quoted message said:

No, braking would be bad, even in if you were fast enough.  Braking
reduces ones control over the bike and puts more weight forward.

Nothing "reduces one's control" like having one's front wheel turned
by someone else's rear wheel. I'd be happy to demonstrate. Let's make
it interesting, say $100 if you can stay upright after I clip your
front wheel with my rear.  6" of overlap ( I don't want your skewer
tearing up my spokes), we start with our wheels 12" apart. I cut in
front of you, you hit the deck and I collect the $100.  Starbucks. Be
there. You'll be wearing purple afterwards, that's for sure. Unlimited
refills, just bring $100 for each match.

And how about a side bet- another $100 says I don't fall.  That's one
of the most maddening things, the guy who cuts in front of you barely
notices the contact, and wonders why all those guys piled up behind
him.
-Paul

There is a difference between touching wheels from overlap, and
getting taken out by somebody cutting you off. Avoiding going down on
the latter is as you say quite hard. But some people seem to get taken
down by what should be recoverable contact like the former.

Joseph

Paul G. said:

On May 27, 6:24 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 27 May 2008 17:56:41 -0700 (PDT), "Paul G."

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If the guy ahead of you swerves and his rear wheel hits your
front wheel, your front wheel will be forced to turn and you will
fall.  The only possibilities of escaping involve turning with him, or
braking so your front wheel is steerable again, but I doubt anyone has
fast enough reflexes to do that in time.

Quoted message said:

If you ever get a chance, watch final sprint of  Gent-Wevelgem 2004
from above.  Kirsipuu comes across Hammonds front wheel for a solid 3
or 4 second and Hammonds holds it up and doesn't crash.

Quoted message said:

Also, braking is not good in that situation.  Fighting agains the
force trying to turn your wheel is usually best.

Obviously there could be many degrees of overlapping and amounts of
force applied by a rear wheel to a front wheel, and unless you can
produce a link to a video I have no idea exactly what happened in the
case you cite.  However, if someone overlaps your front wheel by a
couple of inches and continues to cross in front of you, as is
typical, the leverage and his momentum against your front wheel are
going to be very hard to overcome.

Gosh, I'm just a Cat III Forever parking lot racer, not anything like
a pro, but I once had a dumbbell intentionally hook me coming around
the last corner of a crit, and his fashionably-but-stupidly forward-
facing rear skewer handle snagged a spoke in my front wheel. He kept
going, even tightening his line (really really really trying to take
me down at that point) and dragged me along, front wheel sliding, for
say, a quick count to three, before I came off, spoke bent to a new
shape, wheel wobbling all over the place, my handlebars pointed well
to the right. He got third, I think, I got seventh. Yes, it was "very
hard to overcome", but we were sprinting anyhow, you know?

Fortunately, my club had some good riders who knew what they were
doing, and taught all who would watch, listen, and learn. Not entirely
altruistic on their part, of course! <g>

Dusty can only wonder at "club rides" that feature crashes. There's at
least one famous one here in Austin, going on for years. Haven't been,
personally. I'm such a chickenshit, I missed the Death Ride in Houston
every time I had the chance (Tuesdays, IMS) to attend during our four
years there.

Quoted message said:

If he barely touches you, of course
you have a chance, but if his momentum carries him 6" across your
wheel you're screwed.

Maybe. Certainly worth a fight to stay up.

Quoted message said:

Braking would theoretically save your ass if you could do it fast
enough, as it would free your wheel. However, as I noted, it's
doubtful anyone has fast enough reflexes.

I'd guess that some good percentage of such crashes feature "brakes
on" activity.

You get a grip, steer into the bike ahead, the one you're overlapped
on. Maybe gently, maybe with everything you've got. You get your
balance back together with your course of direction, and slide off the
wheel. There's no "complication" to it.

Beginners especially should not be allowed to overlap wheels,
especially when they don't know what "overlap wheels" means in the
first place. And you have to show them, not just talk about it.

Dang, I keep meaning to post about the kewl front wheel slide my old
mentor and riding buddy did a couple of months ago now.

We rolled right up to an off-camber, well-polished 90deg corner,
leaving a busy street. He followed me instead of the usual other
order, and didn't take the good line. We've been through there lots
faster... Anyhow, I heard a noise from behind that lasted maybe a
little less than a second, by immediate "playback" ("one thousand..."
IOW, maybe not quite long enough for the "one"😉 But maybe it was more
than one second. A good long Scraaaape! but no bang/ooof. Went back,
saw spots on the pavement from AC condensate maybe, or diesel/other
fuel spills, but no obviously slick spots, tested with bike tire for
"slippery". His front tire was well-scuffed all the way up the label
on the slid side, all the way around. Dragged it real good. Rode home
more carefully. Tire went to the Hall of Fame.

Well, sometimes it's better to just go ahead and crash but I have a
story or two for that one, too, as do we all.

First thing you gotta teach the newbies, if they'll let you, is not to
overlap and what to do when you get caught for it because you let
yourself get overlapped even after being told not to when you
shouldn't have been overlapped in the first place, especially when
it's on another newbie who doesn't know what a "line" is yet. And you
have to show them, not just talk about it. --D-y

email hidden said:

Certainly worth a fight to stay up.

Yeah, besides the great details you gave, this is sooo important. And
important in other situations. In trouble situations on the bike too
many people either panic and jerk something like the bars or their
brakes and take themselves out (I think this is why people crash when
a squirrel runs into their wheel) or accept that they are going down
w/o fighting it.

The only time to accept going down is when staying up or delaying the
fall would be worse -- say you have a choice being going down right
away in a slide or going down later by flipping over a wall or into a
car or something.

Ryan Cousineau said:

As someone who has spent a relatively large amount of time with my
wheels in weird places and a relatively small amount of time lying on
the ground, bleeding, I'd suggest that the best advice is not to panic.

Long ago on the Tuesday evening training race (Bustop ride) from
Boulder, I was in a train moving forward just before the final sprint.
Someone tried to switch abruptly to the wheel I was on and we bounced
off each other for a while. Neither of us crashed but we both got
knocked out of the sprint. I later found out that his front wheel had
ripped an adjustment screw out of my rear derailleur. It was Scott
Berryman who was one of the top match sprinters in the country. I'm
guessing that he weighed about 220 lbs at the time. We're rolling
along together and I'm griping at him about switching over to the
wheel like that without looking to see if it's occupied. His answer
was that I should ride track and then I wouldn't get so excited when
things like that happened. Then he tried to sell me a track bike. I
remember thinking that I didn't need to get used to that. Over twenty
years later I ran into him on a training ride. He's the same
gregarious fellow and we had an interesting conversation. I mentioned
the Bustop incident and found he has no recollection at all.

Anyway, I think Potter should build a velodrome in his backyard. If
you build it they will come.

Bret

On May 28, 1:15 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

On Wed, 28 May 2008 10:17:36 -0700 (PDT), "[email hidden]"

Quoted message said:

Certainly worth a fight to stay up.

Yeah, besides the great details you gave, this is sooo important. And
important in other situations. In trouble situations on the bike too
many people either panic and jerk something like the bars or their
brakes and take themselves out (I think this is why people crash when
a squirrel runs into their wheel) or accept that they are going down
w/o fighting it.

The only time to accept going down is when staying up or delaying the
fall would be worse -- say you have a choice being going down right
away in a slide or going down later by flipping over a wall or into a
car or something.

If I may: the point being that part of "the fight" is being aware that
there are options.

Time slows down-- did you see the TV show where they dropped a
"volunteer" guy into a net from pretty high up, and he could read
faster than "normal" (not falling) from the random numbers being
rapidly sequenced on a screen he was holding, while calling out said
numbers into a microphone on the way down? True, not a well-controlled
experiment, maybe more a demonstration. Moot! We've all experienced
the phenomenon.

(begging the indulgence, please):
Out for a fine, blasting ride in the Midwest cornfield countryside one
day, when:

"Ooops, we have arrived at speed at a jink in the road, and our line
through the ess has turned out to be piled high with river bottom
gravel. Ball bearings, as usual. We're sliding and fishtailing through
it, trying to stay up, no way to make the corner now, since we can't
turn without sliding out. OK, let's stay up here! Damn, this is gonna
be close! But look, Paul, who was riding just ahead of me, has
ascertained that his momentum will carry him through the gravel (and
no, we can't ride in this stuff at all, as usual), and well past what
has revealed itself to be a very narrow solid shoulder on the other
side of the road, and down into the vertical-wall bar ditch which
looks to be some six feet deep, or more. Reluctantly, he acquiesces to
a painful low-sider, bike toward the ditch, just in time to avoid a
really bad fall into the unknown, since we weren't able to see the
near side of the ditch or for that matter, the bottom, which could
have had "anything" in it. For myself, not wanting to run over my
friend and teacher (who is on the ground now, and grimacing at the
impact and the grinding), or, although I do maybe have an open line
past Paul, go down into the ditch myself, which looks worse the closer
we get to it, I will slap it down real quick right here! Ow, dammit!
[censored]! I'm OK. Hope I didn't scrape up the bike too bad..."

Got up, said some words while picking out gravel, ([censored], you just
can't see that stuff sometimes), checked out bodies/bikes, no severe
damage anywhere, rode back to town and got mostly happy before we got
home. Minor road rash, a little bruising, nothing compared to what
could have been.

One of the best riding lessons ever!

Can I get a witness...? --D-y

email hidden said:

Paul G. said:

On May 28, 2:40 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email hidden]>
wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 27 May 2008 21:15:22 -0700 (PDT), "Paul G."

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<[email hidden]> wrote:
>Braking would theoretically save your ass if you could do it fast
>enough, as it would free your wheel. However, as I noted, it's
>doubtful anyone has fast enough reflexes.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

No, braking would be bad, even in if you were fast enough. Braking
reduces ones control over the bike and puts more weight forward.

Quoted message said:

Nothing "reduces one's control" like having one's front wheel turned
by someone else's rear wheel. I'd be happy to demonstrate. Let's make
it interesting, say $100 if you can stay upright after I clip your
front wheel with my rear. 6" of overlap ( I don't want your skewer
tearing up my spokes), we start with our wheels 12" apart. I cut in
front of you, you hit the deck and I collect the $100. Starbucks. Be
there. You'll be wearing purple afterwards, that's for sure. Unlimited
refills, just bring $100 for each match.

Quoted message said:

And how about a side bet- another $100 says I don't fall. That's one
of the most maddening things, the guy who cuts in front of you barely
notices the contact, and wonders why all those guys piled up behind
him.
-Paul

There is a difference between touching wheels from overlap, and
getting taken out by somebody cutting you off. Avoiding going down on
the latter is as you say quite hard. But some people seem to get taken
down by what should be recoverable contact like the former.

Joseph

All that is surely true. If you can keep your balance you can stay
up. I'm just saying that their rear wheel can easily push your front
wheel aside, but no matter how good you are, you can't simply push
someone's rear wheel aside with your front wheel. Some reasons why
this is true:
* most of their weight is on their rear wheel, and most of your weight
is not on your front wheel.
* the rear wheel is held firmly in the frame, requiring no strength to
hold it straight, where your front wheel is easy to deflect.
* if they are turning into you, they have momentum you'll have to
overcome.
* the front edge of your front wheel is like a lever their rear wheel
is pushing.
* the rotation of the wheels is going to tend to lift your front
wheel, giving you even less traction. If your front skewer catches his
spokes, it can lift your front wheel off the pavement.
* there's very little time to do the right thing. As soon as his rear
wheel pushes your front wheel aside you are falling. I've seen it
happen, and been amazed at how fast the trailing rider went down, and
that the leading rider didn't even realize what had happened.

One thing you can do pro-actively is don't let a gap open in front of
you. Stay on someone's wheel. What I've seen happen is someone swings
into that gap to try and improve his position, not realizing your
wheels are going to touch. Also if some novice is swerving around in
the peloton, tell him to knock it off.
-Paul