How to reach maximum stroke volume with low volume training?

Increasing your stroke volume is a strange goal to have; simply because it is hard to measure (without ultrasound) and might not mean that you can cycle faster!

You'd be better having a health (e.g. lose weight, lower blood pressure, etc) or performance goal (e.g. new TT time, new longest ride, etc) that is more easily measured.

From the training you have posted it looks like you already do enough volume (some would consider 9 hours a lot) but might not do enough intensity. Have you considered/do you do intervals? Choose your intervals based on your goals, there are lots of examples and tips on this site!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 2LAP
[B]Increasing your stroke volume is a strange goal to have; simply because it is hard to measure (without ultrasound) and might not mean that you can cycle faster!
[/QUOTE]

Strange? The higher the stroke volume the more blood heart can deliver to muscles. The higher SV the higher my VO2max in theory. To supply enough blood to big muscles with high oxidative capacity one must have really big heart.
If heart fails one fails to ride fast.

Quoted post said:

From the training you have posted it looks like you already do enough volume (some would consider 9 hours a lot) but might not do enough intensity. Have you considered/do you do intervals? Choose your intervals based on your goals, there are lots of examples and tips on this site! [/B]

Interesting topic, sorry for the long reply...

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by dot
Strange? The higher the stroke volume the more blood heart can deliver to muscles. The higher SV the higher my VO2max in theory. To supply enough blood to big muscles with high oxidative capacity one must have really big heart.
If heart fails one fails to ride fast.

My point was that increasing the size of your heart won't always result in an increase in performance. You are assuming that all other factors remain static. Focusing on this factor might mean that you neglect another factor that is needed for good performance. Infact the type of training required to increase you stroke volume might/should also cause a reduction in sprint ability; hence the need for periodisation.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by dot
I don't train VO2max and LT. I train heart, muscles and so on :-) I do intensity work but also I want to get as much from my heart as it possible by my genes.

Its all very well training your heart, muscle, aerobic enzymes, neuromuscular function, etc. however there are some major flaws with this approach. Some of these are (looking specificaly at stroke volume)...
1. We are only just starting to get a very good idea about how to train things like VO2 max and LT... we are a long way from knowing how to optimaly train specific characteristics from organs to celular level.
2. The training required to improve VO2 max will/should increase stroke volume due to the relationship between VO2 max and cardiac output (i.e. VO2 = a-v02 difference x (stroke volume x HR)).
3. How do you know if your stroke volume is improving or when its reached its maximum capacity from improvement? Are you going to get ultra sound done every six weeks? How do you know what your genetic potential is?
4. A large stroke volume is only one of many many charachteristics required for endurance performance.
5. Training one characteristic will have positive or negative effects on other characteristic. These are difficult to control for.
6. A program looking at single characteristics is too complex and hard to plan for (how do you manage to fit in more than one session a year targeting each characteristic).
7. A simple program looking at multiple characteristics in a single session, as is used with elite athletes all over the world is adequate for most people.
8. Without regular detailed analysis how do you know which characteristic is holding you back? It might not be your stroke volume it might be mitochondrial density?
9. There is no point in having a high VO2 max from a huge stroke volume if your low LT means you can't sustain a high % of VO2 max for very long.

Out of interest the sessions that increase stroke volume are steady continuous sessions at ~70% VO2 max and at 100% VO2 max (i.e. done as intervals). These are also the efforts that will improve a-v02 difference (i.e. muscles, mitochondrial density, capilaries, etc.) and efficiency.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 2LAP
[B]My point was that increasing the size of your heart won't always result in an increase in performance. Focusing on this factor might mean that you neglect another factor that is needed for good performance. Infact the type of training required to increase you stroke volume might/should also cause a reduction in sprint ability; hence the need for periodisation.
[/QUOTE]

Yes. If heart is no limiter it doesn't affect performance.

Quoted post said:

3. How do you know if your stroke volume is improving or when its reached its maximum capacity from improvement? Are you going to get ultra sound done every six weeks? How do you know what your genetic potential is?

Quoted post said:

4. A large stroke volume is only one of many many charachteristics required for endurance performance.

Quoted post said:

6. A program looking at single characteristics is too complex and hard to plan for (how do you manage to fit in more than one session a year targeting each characteristic).

Quoted post said:

8. Without regular detailed analysis how do you know which characteristic is holding you back? It might not be your stroke volume it might be mitochondrial density?

Quoted post said:

Out of interest the sessions that increase stroke volume are steady continuous sessions at ~70% VO2 max and at 100% VO2 max (i.e. done as intervals). These are also the efforts that will improve a-v02 difference (i.e. muscles, mitochondrial density, capilaries, etc.) and efficiency. [/B]

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by dot
Yes. If heart is no limiter it doesn't affect performance.

So you will need a very accurate measure of performance and that is based on the performance of the heart to isolate the effect of other adaptations from efficiency to plasma volume and environment. Not sure what you would use.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by dot
RHR drops some beats as stroke volume increases.
Another method: ultrasound. You mentioned it ;-)

This normaly happens early in the program and my be associated with things other than stroke volume like reduced mass or reduced peripheral circulation. Somethings will cause RHR to increase like fatigue, stress, dehydration, etc. at these times will you consider that stroke volume has decreased?

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by dot
yes. And I ask traning procedures just for this characteristic. I know long VO2max intervals but I just curious is there anyone who do it in another non-classic ways.

I'm not sure there are alternatives but there are two in my previous post, but it will be interesting to see what other people do. Do you have alternatives to put forward?

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by dot
testing. testing.

But how will you test for things like mitochondrial density and other characteristics... regular muscle biopsy? Its hard to test for VO2 max without a lab because of the assumptions being made.

Over the years, I've tried training a lot of different ways, but I've never been able to drive my VO2max as high as it can get except by combining high intensity intervals (e.g., 6 x 5 min at what I now call level 5) with longer, somewhat less intense sessions (e.g., 1.5-2 h at level 3/4).

Quoted post said:

I'm not sure there are alternatives but there are two in my previous post, but it will be interesting to see what other people do. Do you have alternatives to put forward?

Alternatives: Billat's intervals: 30/30sec workouts, Tabata intervals. 60-90 sec all-out intervals to reach max HR... They don't elevate lactate levels as high as classic VO2max intervals. So I'm looking for positive expiriences on these types of workouts.

Quoted post said:

But how will you test for things like mitochondrial density and other characteristics... regular muscle biopsy? Its hard to test for VO2 max without a lab because of the assumptions being made.

There are some methods for testing oxidative capacity
and balance between muscles and heart pump.
And yes, I will do it in lab. I think my first test will be in february.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by dot
Alternatives: Billat's intervals: 30/30sec workouts, Tabata intervals. 60-90 sec all-out intervals to reach max HR... They don't elevate lactate levels as high as classic VO2max intervals. So I'm looking for positive expiriences on these types of workouts.

I've tried intervals of a similar duration and find after a number of efforts the lactate accumulation is considerable (although I was attacking them rather than riding at an effort corresponding to VO2max). I've also found that during these intervals the HR isn't high for very long, whereas in 4 minute intervals I can hold my HR at almost max for 2 to 2.5 minutes (repeating this 4 to 5 times with long rests).

I've seen untrained people have really good increases in VO2max with 30/30sec efforts and 60/60 sec efforts; their increases were more than people doing a greater volume of continuous exercise. The effect of these efforts were less in trained people, probably didn't provide the stimulous required for adaptation.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by 2LAP
I've tried intervals of a similar duration and find after a number of efforts the lactate accumulation is considerable (although I was attacking them rather than riding at an effort corresponding to VO2max). I've also found that during these intervals the HR isn't high for very long, whereas in 4 minute intervals I can hold my HR at almost max for 2 to 2.5 minutes (repeating this 4 to 5 times with long rests).

I've seen untrained people have really good increases in VO2max with 30/30sec efforts and 60/60 sec efforts; their increases were more than people doing a greater volume of continuous exercise. The effect of these efforts were less in trained people, probably didn't provide the stimulous required for adaptation.

Great! Thank you.