How to maximize training for longer rides on limited time

Hello,

Based on my own personal experience as I am really still a beginner (coming on one year in August of power training) you do not really have to do the longer riders you speak of as with Dave's advice I have been focusing on the 20 minutes (SST/L4) intervals and you should be fine for your type of racing. My typical week would like this:

Monday -> Off or 90 minutes focus = 2 low SST intervals
Tueday -> 90 minutes focus = 3-4 L4 intervals
Wed -> 90 minutes focus = 2-3 SST intervals
Thursday -> 90 minutes focus = 3-4 L4 intervals
Friday -> Off or 90 minutes = 2 low SST intervals
Sat -> 3-5 Hours = L3 ride
Sun -> Play by how my body feels...most time long L3 ride

I also do weight training anywhere from 2-3 times a week every other week do legs and back and chest every week. I do have a rest week but not planned my body tells me when.

This type I can feel has been building quite an aerobic engine for me and I am sure it can for you. I think the key is patience as these type of sessions can get a little frustrating as you are not hitting highs alot but consistent numbers like I have which always give me an average in the 200-220 range. Lately I have been extending some of my SST intervals into yesterday I did a full hour at 230 watts and was surprised how easy it felt...today I paid for it a bit as could hold the 230 for 50 minutes.

Now that race season is coming up I have been advised to add HOP and sprints into my sessions. Want to get 1000 watts on my sprints for the line and the HOP can feel like a crit. I agree that crits can be dangerous as here in CP/NYC we always have broken collar bones and shoulders. Personally not worth it to me at 42 and have been looking for races that you dsescribe. I use the local crits here as training sessions and notice most accidents happen either in the first loop or the last loop.

We had one person die here when we were allowed to do TT in CP. A homeless person would not listen to a marshall and continued to walk out in the road, unfortunately he got hit and he later dies in the hospital. The rider suffered some pretty bad injuries also.

In the end the only person I feel you need to compete with is yourself and that is why I love the power meter. It is like weight lifting...I do not need to look at the guy next to me to know if I am improving. The numbers and the mirror are all I need! It is the best race to win!

Good luck with your training and your race....

-js

ruleof72 said:

It's been a while since I last posted (last year). At that time I thought I would be training mostly for criteriums. Well, things have changed a bit. I've had some second thoughts about continuing to race crits on a regular basis as I've had several freinds/acquaintences get seriously injured, and in one case killed, racing in cat 4/5 crits. As I get older I am less willing to take the risks required to effectively race in a criterium format. I really enjoy competition however, and I want to have "something" to train for. I might do an occasional crit but I am leaning more towards longer rides in the 50-100 mile range. I like the longer efforts as they fit my power profile fairly well.

I'm going to be doing my 1st century in almost 3 years here in a few weeks. I did a 70 mile ride last Sunday and averaged 19+ over rolling terrain so I feel like I am fit enough to complete the ride but I'd like to be able to do more than just finish. I have been training with a Powertap since last May and really like the feedback it gives me. My current FTP is 270 watts and I am currently riding 5-6 hours a week. I typically ride in the evening Tuesday through Thursday and both weekend days. I do have the time to do at least one long ride each weekend. I know I have limited time to train, and can't impact the ride coming up in three weeks, but I want to do well in these "races" and improve my results as much as I can. I guess I am looking for some suggestions on how best to divide up my time to get the best results possible. Also, if there is anyone trying to do what I am with the same limitations, what has been your experience?

ruleof72 said:

It's been a while since I last posted (last year). At that time I thought I would be training mostly for criteriums. Well, things have changed a bit. I've had some second thoughts about continuing to race crits on a regular basis as I've had several freinds/acquaintences get seriously injured, and in one case killed, racing in cat 4/5 crits. As I get older I am less willing to take the risks required to effectively race in a criterium format. I really enjoy competition however, and I want to have "something" to train for. I might do an occasional crit but I am leaning more towards longer rides in the 50-100 mile range. I like the longer efforts as they fit my power profile fairly well.

I'm going to be doing my 1st century in almost 3 years here in a few weeks. I did a 70 mile ride last Sunday and averaged 19+ over rolling terrain so I feel like I am fit enough to complete the ride but I'd like to be able to do more than just finish. I have been training with a Powertap since last May and really like the feedback it gives me. My current FTP is 270 watts and I am currently riding 5-6 hours a week. I typically ride in the evening Tuesday through Thursday and both weekend days. I do have the time to do at least one long ride each weekend. I know I have limited time to train, and can't impact the ride coming up in three weeks, but I want to do well in these "races" and improve my results as much as I can. I guess I am looking for some suggestions on how best to divide up my time to get the best results possible. Also, if there is anyone trying to do what I am with the same limitations, what has been your experience?

Do two quality sessions per week on the indoor trainer -- 5min warm-up and then 60 - 90min of serious work with no junk minutes. Unexcelled for time-efficient training. Further, doing long rides/races in a group, the time of actual/equivalent hard work is not much (any?) more than your trainer sessions.
Best,
Bill Black

Bill Black said:

Do two quality sessions per week on the indoor trainer -- 5min warm-up and then 60 - 90min of serious work with no junk minutes. Unexcelled for time-efficient training. Further, doing long rides/races in a group, the time of actual/equivalent hard work is not much (any?) more than your trainer sessions.
Best,
Bill Black

I agree and disgree with the advice you have received.

Definitely don't bother with weight training.

Here's the thing - 100 miles will take you more than 5 hours - so your body has to be able to exert itself for 5 hours. Now, training sweet spot and L4 will get you riding faster, but only effectively over shorter durations.

I don't know the exact science, but I keep hearing that for long rides your body needs to learn to burn fat for energy, not just carbs - and the only way to get this going is to train long as often as feasible.

You want to ride a good century? As often as you can ride a long ride - weekends? I would advice try and do one 4-5hr ride at a "as uncomfortable as you can manage maintaining a constant steady intensity over that duration" per week if possible.

If you were still (and only) wanting to ride cat 4/5 crits I would say train your SST and above 6 hrs a week. Big distance riding / racing is a different animal. engages different energy systems, requires different nutrition / hydration, requires a different mental approach, even a different body shape (heavy guys can often ride a mean crit, but die a thousand deaths in an endurance event).

Try something like 3 x 2hr SST sessions in workday evenings, then one (even 2) longer rides on the weekend....if you can. An hours recovery riding the day after is always smart.

Try not to fall into the trap of going hard all the time.

I agree you do not need weight training...I do it becuase I like to look in the mirror and not see the physique of a cheerleader.:p Just teasing...but it will do nothing for your training in terms of cycling and just giving him an idea of how I train.

Next though I disagree that you need to do longer riders to train for long road races. From my personal experience when I went out to Red Rock recently and was putting in close toa century a day, I had no trouble and could feel that the SST/L4 traning of 20 minute variety made the difference.

I have nothing against a 3-5 hour ride once a week as I do it but I do not see it as a must have. I see it as a luxury if you have the time.

You sound like the euro-pro who works here and is telling guys to do 3 hour rides on week days and 5-7 on weekends. Lets not forget ILT...

This is just my experience but you should get many opinions and see what works best for you.

-js

BullGod said:

I agree and disgree with the advice you have received.

Definitely don't bother with weight training.

Here's the thing - 100 miles will take you more than 5 hours - so your body has to be able to exert itself for 5 hours. Now, training sweet spot and L4 will get you riding faster, but only effectively over shorter durations.

I don't know the exact science, but I keep hearing that for long rides your body needs to learn to burn fat for energy, not just carbs - and the only way to get this going is to train long as often as feasible.

You want to ride a good century? As often as you can ride a long ride - weekends? I would advice try and do one 4-5hr ride at a "as uncomfortable as you can manage maintaining a constant steady intensity over that duration" per week if possible.

If you were still (and only) wanting to ride cat 4/5 crits I would say train your SST and above 6 hrs a week. Big distance riding / racing is a different animal. engages different energy systems, requires different nutrition / hydration, requires a different mental approach, even a different body shape (heavy guys can often ride a mean crit, but die a thousand deaths in an endurance event).

Try something like 3 x 2hr SST sessions in workday evenings, then one (even 2) longer rides on the weekend....if you can. An hours recovery riding the day after is always smart.

Try not to fall into the trap of going hard all the time.

Thanks for the feedback! I know everyone has an opinion on what is best and I guess there is really no "right" way to train.

I may be asking too much of myself by trying to train for two completely different events, but as I look into the future I see myself doing a couple of crits (at most) each year along with a few time trials and a few century type rides. I'd rather error on the side of being prepared for the centuries and TT. As warmer weather approaches my typical week looks like this:

Mon: rest
Tues-Thurs: 45-60 minutes outdoor ride
Fri: rest
Sat: 1-2 hours outdoors, usually by myself
Sun: 2-4 hours with group, usually moderate pace.

I live in an area that has lots of rolling hills and frequent stops due to traffic, etc. I have to go about 45 minutes to get to more rural roads so that will only happen on the weekends. I really enjoy being outdoors in the warmer months but I do have a Kurt Kinetic trainer so I could do a couple of indoor sessions if needed.

I think I could like Bill's suggestion of a couple of "quality" indoor sessions. But, what does that entail exactly in terms of FTP, 80%?, 90%? Maybe I could combine that with a fast 90 minute group ride 1x/week, a longer weekend ride and mix in some L5 work 1 day a week a few weeks before each criterium. I know I need to build my CTL (I think its around 54 or so), but that should naturally happen with the longer rides on the weekends. If I can find the time to ride a bit more I'm hoping I'll be OK.

Any thoughts?

Have you bought the book Training and Racing with a Power Meter? It is kind of like the bible for power training. I think if not you should pick it up and give it a good read.

Your questions for 80% or 90% will all get answered in the book. I would say for SST/L4 you are looing at 80% to about 92% and L4 is really like at close to 100% and a bit higher till you reach VO2 max. I would still recommend 20 minute variety in the 80-90% range and than 10 min variety in the 90% and higher range. Take 5 minute breaks between intervals.

As far as Mr. Black's HOP, there are a few threads around where he gives you the exact numbers for the different types of HOP sessions you wish to do. They are all very good and I have tried them quite a bit.

Since you have rolling hills I would recommend doing them on the trainer as it makes it a bit more precise for tracking. I have rolling hills around here and it makes it tough to get a stretch of area where I can do 20 minutes of steady power output without a traffic light or hill to interrupt.

CTL is very tricky and took alot of advice from Dave to finally get my slope in the +3 area and now I have finally reached 91 and shooting for 100. I have personally found even putting in a quick 40 minute session with 1 SST interval can make the whole difference in my CTL. Meaning I try to not have a rest day where I am off the bike...this week for me has been a kind of rest week but still had a TSS of 750 but kept my CTL at a steady 91. Next week we go up again!

Can you commute to work by bike? I have a 40 minute ride round trip and you will be amazed what that 40 minutes can do for your CTL and give you a little bit of recovery pace.

-js

ruleof72 said:

Thanks for the feedback! I know everyone has an opinion on what is best and I guess there is really no "right" way to train.

I may be asking too much of myself by trying to train for two completely different events, but as I look into the future I see myself doing a couple of crits (at most) each year along with a few time trials and a few century type rides. I'd rather error on the side of being prepared for the centuries and TT. As warmer weather approaches my typical week looks like this:

Mon: rest
Tues-Thurs: 45-60 minutes outdoor ride
Fri: rest
Sat: 1-2 hours outdoors, usually by myself
Sun: 2-4 hours with group, usually moderate pace.

I live in an area that has lots of rolling hills and frequent stops due to traffic, etc. I have to go about 45 minutes to get to more rural roads so that will only happen on the weekends. I really enjoy being outdoors in the warmer months but I do have a Kurt Kinetic trainer so I could do a couple of indoor sessions if needed.

I think I could like Bill's suggestion of a couple of "quality" indoor sessions. But, what does that entail exactly in terms of FTP, 80%?, 90%? Maybe I could combine that with a fast 90 minute group ride 1x/week, a longer weekend ride and mix in some L5 work 1 day a week a few weeks before each criterium. I know I need to build my CTL (I think its around 54 or so), but that should naturally happen with the longer rides on the weekends. If I can find the time to ride a bit more I'm hoping I'll be OK.

Any thoughts?

BullGod said:

...Now, training sweet spot and L4 will get you riding faster, but only effectively over shorter durations....

No, that's not accurate.

Quoted post said:

...I don't know the exact science, but I keep hearing that for long rides your body needs to learn to burn fat for energy, not just carbs - and the only way to get this going is to train long as often as feasible....

Nor is that oft repeated myth. You don't train your body to prefer fats over sugars. You raise your sustainable (metabolic) power production. Then when you're going at moderate speeds you're working at a lower percentage of your capabilities and that's what leads to burning more fat and less glycogen, blood glucose and lactate. It's pretty simple, if your FTP is 300 watts and the event forces you to ride consistently over 270 watts you're gonna burn through your limited glycogen stores in a hurry and you can't consume enough to offset that burn rate. Get your FTP up to 350 and you'll be burning a lot more fat and conserving your glycogen at that same 270 watt pace.

There is good evidence that long, low intensity rides will help you learn to store more muscle glycogen but little to no evidence that you can retrain your metabolism to prefer fats. But that idea is deep in endurance sports mythology and just won't die.

You want to build endurance? Raise your FTP, do enough long rides to get used to being in the saddle all day and feed yourself well.

-Dave

jsirabella said:

As far as Mr. Black's HOP, there are a few threads around where he gives you the exact numbers for the different types of HOP sessions you wish to do. They are all very good and I have tried them quite a bit.

Since you have rolling hills I would recommend doing them on the trainer as it makes it a bit more precise for tracking. I have rolling hills around here and it makes it tough to get a stretch of area where I can do 20 minutes of steady power output without a traffic light or hill to interrupt.

I don't think that you necessarily need to do them on a trainer. I do something like an HOP on the roads around here where I use short hills as the little accelerations that he includes in his trainer workout. I have a few different loops of varying length and hill content (short and steep vs. longer and not-so-steep) that I like to use and I will ride a 1-1.5 hour interval averaging mid-L3 to low-L4 power and blast every little rise in the pavement during the interval. I think of it to some degree as race simulation, though the hills force perhaps a lower cadence than I would see in a flat race like a criterium.

I have read and reread and reread a book
titled "The Complete book of long distance cycling" by Edmund R Burke PHD and Ed Pavelka and the most often repeated training phrase in their book.

.....its not the miles you ride, its the ride in your miles.

Plus, they say the time you spend away from your bike recovering is as important as riding. They have a schedule to ride a fast century with midweek rides no longer than 30-40 miles. Following their book, for the most part I rode in the Tour De Tucson race last fall (109 miles) and never made a training ride longer than 60 miles except 1 charity ride (100 miles)late sept and I finished with a 5hr 13 min race and I had a flat, plus Im only a rec rider, maybe 15 races in the past 20 years.

jsirabella said:

Have you bought the book Training and Racing with a Power Meter? It is kind of like the bible for power training. I think if not you should pick it up and give it a good read.

Your questions for 80% or 90% will all get answered in the book. I would say for SST/L4 you are looing at 80% to about 92% and L4 is really like at close to 100% and a bit higher till you reach VO2 max. I would still recommend 20 minute variety in the 80-90% range and than 10 min variety in the 90% and higher range. Take 5 minute breaks between intervals.

As far as Mr. Black's HOP, there are a few threads around where he gives you the exact numbers for the different types of HOP sessions you wish to do. They are all very good and I have tried them quite a bit...

-js

Yes, I have the book, I just haven't read it in a while and thinking about it I do recall the HOP in the book. It is all coming back to me now:o

I have been on and off the bike for the last few months fighting some ankle tendinitis. It's much better now and I am ready to increase my training. Needless to say I didn't get in all the training I wanted over the Winter. My current CTL is right at 50, ATL is 57 and my last few weeks TSS has been in the 400-450 range. That includes one "big" ride a week and 3-4 smaller rides. I want to get the most out of my training and build my fitness without over reaching or injuring myself. I know that in a perfect world my CTL should be higher than it is before hoping to do a "hard" century. So, given that, what kind of CTL ramp rate can I safely shoot for? Is it +3 like you are doing? If so I could probably get that done with a little more focus on 1-2 of the rides each week (especially if I did them on the trainer) as well as extending the long rides a little bit each time I do them.

I agree with what Dave said re: doing longer rides in that alot of it is being able to stay on the bike for extended periods along with proper nutrition. I have found that if I take in 300-400 calories each hour on rides over 2 hours, along with proper hydration and pacing, I am able to go as long as my butt will let me! Getting faster over that same distance is the hard part and that's what I want to improve.

I am going by what Dave told me in some past emails but he explained that a +3 slope is a nice slope which will not kill you but will definitely increase your fitness. I believe he said that once you reach a +7 most people experience burnout. I have been in the +3 to +5 area.

The tricky part im my experience with CTL is that it really lends itself well to people who want to put in the endurance miles. Now as Dave told me that is not the point of power training, you want CTL but not at the cost of loosing hitting your numbers during the intervals. This is where I had to find balance...

One of the reasons I asked if you can commute to work is that for me, I put in 90 minutes on a given day, hit my interval numbers and than my 40 minute recovery pace at about a 150 for my commute gives me that little edge to push my up like 30-50 TSS points which add up over a week.

I know it may be tough but for me I have found 2 hours on training day and 1 hour on non-training days to really be the sweet spot...if you can do that and on weekends get in the one longer ride you are speaking of than you will see that CTL rise pretty nicely. But remember do not sacrafice your interval output for CTL, you need to find your balance. 20 minute intervals or higher are aerobic and will build CTL.

Eventually you will hit that ceiling where because of personal reasons(time, vacation, sickness) CTL will max out for you as you need more time to get that TSS to go higher or you want to start doing more higher end training like VO2 and L5 and above. That type of training will definitely hurt your CTL as when done right should knock you out quickly.

You want to get faster...increase your FTP...but you are alot like me and first you need to build that aerobic engine and than work on higher end systems. BTW, I always agree with Dave...😄 and take his advice over mine any day of the week.

-js

ruleof72 said:

Yes, I have the book, I just haven't read it in a while and thinking about it I do recall the HOP in the book. It is all coming back to me now:o

I have been on and off the bike for the last few months fighting some ankle tendinitis. It's much better now and I am ready to increase my training. Needless to say I didn't get in all the training I wanted over the Winter. My current CTL is right at 50, ATL is 57 and my last few weeks TSS has been in the 400-450 range. That includes one "big" ride a week and 3-4 smaller rides. I want to get the most out of my training and build my fitness without over reaching or injuring myself. I know that in a perfect world my CTL should be higher than it is before hoping to do a "hard" century. So, given that, what kind of CTL ramp rate can I safely shoot for? Is it +3 like you are doing? If so I could probably get that done with a little more focus on 1-2 of the rides each week (especially if I did them on the trainer) as well as extending the long rides a little bit each time I do them.

I agree with what Dave said re: doing longer rides in that alot of it is being able to stay on the bike for extended periods along with proper nutrition. I have found that if I take in 300-400 calories each hour on rides over 2 hours, along with proper hydration and pacing, I am able to go as long as my butt will let me! Getting faster over that same distance is the hard part and that's what I want to improve.