How to Improve Pizza?

Shrubman wrote: <snip>

Quoted message said:

My crust was made with:

approx. 3 cups of flour one packet dry yeast pinch of
sugar one cup of water (luke warm) 2 tablespoons olive oil

SALT! YOU *MUST* HAVE SALT! Otherwise your crust will indeed
lack flavor. Add the salt after the dough is done rising.

Quoted message said:

In attempting to mimic the traditional neaopolitan pizza
that has been in the news lately I splurged on buffalo
mozzarella, and completed the topping with only plum
tomatoes put through a food mill and fresh basil leaves.

For this recipe to work, it's imperative that tomatoes be at
the height of flavor. If they're the typical picked-green-and-
gassed things rather than genuinely vine-ripened and picked
only a day ago, you won't get that full tomato flavor.

As a Band-Aid (although it's absolutely no substitute for
ripe tomatoes), you can add a tablespoon or so of tomato
paste and a couple pinches of sugar to the sauce to punch up
the flavor. Maybe a little bit of white wine, red wine
vinegar, or Tabasco, too.

Quoted message said:

When I go to a pizza shop, for one thing the toppings seem
much more oily than mine. There is often a red/orange oily
liquid on the surface. The crust is also, need I say,
vastly different with many air holes in the outer crust
and a thin, chewy texture under the toppings.

I could go on, but you've all heard it before.Is it
possible to do better than this at home?

To get those big holes (if that's what you want; it's a
matter of taste), you could try fast-rise yeast. Or you
could add more water; the more liquid the dough is, the
bigger the holes tend to be.

I dunno about the orange oil; is that what you WANT in a
pizza, or are you just associating that with "good" pizza?
It's my theory (though I could easily be wrong) that the
stuff is exuded from the cheese and colored by the tomato
sauce. If that's correct, then I guess using full-fat but
fairly dry mozzarella would result in the greatest oily-
liquid output.

Bob

Use the pizza dough recipe at www.theartisan.net. Let it
ferment overnight in the 'fridge. That will solve your
dough problems.

Spoon a tablespoon of oil on the rolled out dough before
you top the pizza. It will be fine. 500° or so is all you
really need.

--
------------------------------------------------------------
----------------
----
Louis Cohen Living la vida loca at N37° 43' 7.9" W122° 8'
42.8"

"Shrubman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Yes, I am aware there are many threads devoted to pizza
over the years. I have scanned most of them.

I know home ovens lack the heat that commercial pizza
ovens have.

My question is: Where does this recipe go wrong.

My crust was made with:

approx. 3 cups of flour one packet dry yeast pinch of
sugar one cup of water (luke warm) 2 tablespoons olive oil

I processed the dough in a food processor, then kneaded it
for a couple of minutes. I allowed it to rise in a warm
oven for 1-2 hours.

In attempting to mimic the traditional neaopolitan pizza
that has been in the news lately I splurged on buffalo
mozzarella, and completed the topping with only plum
tomatoes put through a food mill and fresh basil leaves.

Well, many of you won't be surprised to hear what I ended
up with. After cooking on a very-thoroughly-preheated
pizza stone in a 525 degree oven I ended up with a bland
tasting pizza on a doughy cracker!

Can someone tell me what the main difference between what
I did and pizza parlours the world over do? Is it the oven
temperature? Is it the toppings? Is it the dough
ingredients?

When I go to a pizza shop, for one thing the toppings seem
much more oily than mine. There is often a red/orange oily
liquid on the surface. The crust is also, need I say,
vastly different with many air holes in the outer crust
and a thin, chewy texture under the toppings.

I could go on, but you've all heard it before.Is it
possible to do better than this at home?

Thanks in advance!

Evan

[email hidden] (Shrubman) wrote in
:"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Yes, I am aware there are many threads devoted to pizza
over the years. I have scanned most of them.

I know home ovens lack the heat that commercial pizza
ovens have.

My question is: Where does this recipe go wrong.

My crust was made with:

approx. 3 cups of flour one packet dry yeast pinch of
sugar one cup of water (luke warm) 2 tablespoons olive oil

I processed the dough in a food processor, then kneaded it
for a couple of minutes. I allowed it to rise in a warm
oven for 1-2 hours.

Generally I think you have too much flour and too much
yeast, along with a little switch in technique. You need a
wetter (more slack) dough and less handling to preserve the
larger bubbles and lightness in the dough.

As you say, there are _many_ variations on pizza dough on
the web and everywhere else.

The recipe and technique I use seems to work well for me and
produces a crust much like you describe.

2 cups bread flour 1 teaspoon salt 1 tablespoon honey or
white sugar 2 tablespoons olive oil
3/4 cup cold water 1 teaspoon regular dry yeast
4/4 cup lukewarm water

Combine lukewarm water and yeast and stir a bit to dissolve.
Let stand 10 minutes.

In the bowl of a food processor, combine flour and salt and
pulse to blend. Pour over the honey or sugar and olive oil.
Pour over dissolved yeast.

Place lid on food processor and turn on. Immediately pour in
the remaining 3/4 cup cold water. Process 30 seconds. If
dough doesn't form a ball around the blade, stop processor
and add 2 additional tablespoons of flour and process again.
Repeat as needed until dough ball forms. (This should not
require a lot of additional flour - perhaps at the most, 5-6
tablespoons.) When dough ball forms, continue processing an
additional 30 seconds.

Immediately turn dough into greased or oiled bowl, cover
tightly and refrigerate overnight. The dough will rise
slightly, but not completely. The dough may be kept several
days in the refrigerator at this stage.

Several hours before assembling the pizza, remove the bowl
from the refrigerator. As bowl warms, the dough will rise.
When double in bulk, punch down, cover, and allow to rise
again. If you have time, repeat this at least 1 or 2 times.

If you use a pizza pan, add 2-3 tablespoons oil to the pan
before adding dough. Do not roll dough out or work in
additional flour. Simply put the dough ball into the pan and
use your fingertips to punch into the dough and gradually
flatten and enlarge it to fill the pan and create a slightly
raised edge.

Before adding sauce or toppings, coat the top of the dough
with an additional 1-2 tablespoons of oil.

Add desired toppings and bake in a very hot oven 12-15
minutes or until of desired doneness.

Note: My oven only goes as high at 500 degrees F., and that
works just fine. I bake on the lowest rack. Preheat
the oven for at least half an hour, including the
baking stone if using one.

If using a baking stone and no pan, shape the dough using
the above procedure omitting the oil under the dough, but
place it on a sheet of baking parchment. This makes it easy
to transfer to the baking stone with a peel.

Sorry this was so long.

--
Wayne in Phoenix

If there's a nit to pick, some nitwit will pick it.

[email hidden] (Shrubman) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In attempting to mimic the traditional neaopolitan pizza
that has been in the news lately I splurged on buffalo
mozzarella, and completed the topping with only plum
tomatoes put through a food mill and fresh basil leaves.

Well, many of you won't be surprised to hear what I ended
up with. After cooking on a very-thoroughly-preheated
pizza stone in a 525 degree oven I ended up with a bland
tasting pizza on a doughy cracker!

I agree with most of the critiques on your crust, although
not Alex's indictment of the food processor. I've watched
Nancy Silverton use a processor on an old Julia Child show.
It is a respected bread tool. A slow risen, slack dough
would give you the most crust flavor.

However, one other thing to consider:

Neoplitan Pizza is a bland tasting pizza on a doughy
cracker.

Ok, not really, but it is one of those "pure" recipes that
depends on perfection of ingredients in the right
proportion. And it's also a pretty foreign style to most
Americans. Good, but different in the same way that [censored]
Tatin is not Apple Pie. Crust aside, you needed more flavor;
salt, pepper, garlic, sugar (probably not) or basil. A bit
of parmagiano grated on the hot pizza would help too.

If you're looking for anything other than a thin crust
pizza, be aware of the recipe's goal. Most recipes seem to
aim for a thin crust, so they only make enough dough for a
thin crust. So don't roll your do so thin if you don't want
a thin crust.

Most recipes call for panless baking on a stone. This is the
best method for a crispy crust. It's the worst method for a
tender crust. Most American pizzarias use pizza pans or
cookie sheets (for rectangular pizzas.) If you want that
style, use a pan.

For better crust on a thick pizza, remove the pizza from
the pan and put on the stone or oven rack during the last
five minutes.

Buffalo Mozz. is a great cheese, and very nice on pizza if
you don't mind that it won't melt so much as weep, and that
it won't get stringy and stretchy. That's a job for low-fat
cow's milk mozzerella.

Wow - I do go on. I was originally only going to make the
crack about Neopolitan pizza.

Greg Zywicki

Thanks a lot, both of you, for the quick response. I should
point out that, yes, I did have salt (forgot to list it) and
that the tomatoes were canned, peeled, imported plum
tomatoes with extra sauce removed.

Thanks!

On 16 Jun 2004 20:09:10 -0500, "Bob"

virtualgoth@die_spammer.com said:

SALT! YOU *MUST* HAVE SALT! Otherwise your crust will
indeed lack flavor. Add the salt after the dough is done
rising.

That's hard to do. Add salt to your slurry of flour and
risen yeast.

Practice safe eating - always use condiments

In article <[email hidden]>,

Wayne said:

[email hidden] (Shrubman) wrote in
:"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Yes, I am aware there are many threads devoted to pizza
over the years. I have scanned most of them.

I know home ovens lack the heat that commercial pizza
ovens have.

My question is: Where does this recipe go wrong.

My crust was made with:

approx. 3 cups of flour one packet dry yeast pinch of
sugar one cup of water (luke warm) 2 tablespoons
olive oil

I processed the dough in a food processor, then kneaded
it for a couple of minutes. I allowed it to rise in a
warm oven for 1-2 hours.

Generally I think you have too much flour and too much
yeast, along with a little switch in technique. You need a
wetter (more slack) dough and less handling to preserve
the larger bubbles and lightness in the dough.

I also didn't see any salt, which will add flavour and
strengthen the gluten.

Miche

--
If you want to end war and stuff you got to sing loud. --
Arlo Guthrie, "Alice's Restaurant"

Excellent Comments: You should use salt, as Alex says. Use a
tiny bit of yeast and ferment in the frig overnight. I knead
in a bread machine on dough cycle. My kitchen aid sits in
the pantry. You dough is too dry. 1.125-1.25cups liquid/3
cups flour. Consider a softer flour like the Italians do in
Italy. Some recipes call for 1/4 cake flour and all purpose,
not bread flour. Spray h20 mist in the oven during the cook.
This will crisp the crust. Make sure you heat the stone for
at least an hour. Use an oven thermometer to make sure it is
heating as high as you say. All comments on tomatos are
right on. I have used fresh Romas in season, on top of the
cheese, so the tomato aqueous fraction evaporates to some
degree during cooking. Good thread Good luck Kent

Alex Rast said:

at Thu, 17 Jun 2004 00:02:08 GMT in
<890b5b0a.0406161602.61186954 @posting.google.com>,
[email hidden] (Shrubman) wrote :

Quoted message said:

Yes, I am aware there are many threads devoted to pizza
over the years. I have scanned most of them.

I know home ovens lack the heat that commercial pizza
ovens have.

My question is: Where does this recipe go wrong.

My crust was made with:

approx. 3 cups of flour one packet dry yeast pinch of
sugar one cup of water (luke warm) 2 tablespoons
olive oil

I processed the dough in a food processor, then kneaded
it for a couple of minutes. I allowed it to rise in a
warm oven for 1-2 hours.

In attempting to mimic the traditional neaopolitan pizza
that has been in the news lately I splurged on buffalo
mozzarella, and completed the topping with only plum
tomatoes put through a food mill and fresh basil leaves.

Well, many of you won't be surprised to hear what I ended
up with. After cooking on a very-thoroughly-preheated
pizza stone in a 525 degree oven I ended up with a bland
tasting pizza on a doughy cracker!

On the crust, you let it rise too fast. You're using a
huge amount of yeast, a warm oven, added sugar, and no
salt. All of these factors accelerate the rising. Good
flavour in the crust is the result of SLOW rising. As in 6
hours or more to rise the first time, then a second rise
of 2 hours or so, then a third(!) rise for about an hour.
(The third rise is optional). Not having any salt (which
also helps to [censored] rising) will result in a very bland
flavour as well. I find it's best to lean on the high side
- 1 tbsp of salt for 6 cups of flour. Rise the dough in a
cool place (somewhere around 50-60 F is ideal) and use a
tiny amount of yeast. I use about 1/8 of a cake, and if 1
cake = 1 packet dry, that means 1/8 of a packet of dry
yeast. I use only enough warm water to dissolve the yeast,
and use cold water for the rest. If you want large
bubbles, your dough should be quite wet - 1 cup water to 3
cups flour is pretty dry. It should be just barely
possible to shape it if you want it to be bubbly - very
sticky and almost runny. The drier your dough, the more
even-textured and small the bubbles will be.

Using a food processor is a strange way to start your
dough. Usually people mix and knead either by hand or with
a stand mixer. Other methods may lead to uneven results.
Kneading for a couple of minutes probably wasn't enough.
You need to knead long enough for the dough to become very
smooth, for it to fall in big, rounded folds rather than
thin wrinkles, and for it to have a silken feel in the
hand. That a process that takes whatever time it takes.
Don't time it - simply knead until it reaches that state.
If you want the wet dough I described, the best way is to
make a relatively dry dough to knead with, then *gently*
knead extra water in at the end, once the dough reaches
the point I described. (This makes the process of kneading
much less of an exercise in frustration and soggy dough
squidging everywhere)

On the toppings, as has been pointed out, the mistake was
probably the tomatoes. They need to be absolutely ripe,
picked when red. Virtually no supermarket tomatoes these
days qualify. If you can't grow them at home, your best
bet would be a local farmer's market or farm stand. If you
live in a region where tomatoes don't really grow well
(most northern-tier states) you're better off buying
canned. As with the crust, adding some salt will improve
the flavour enormously. You won't need much in this case
- as little as 1/4 tsp per pound of tomatoes will make a
big difference. Also, even though you did pass them
through a food mill, be sure to peel them and remove any
seeds. By blanching them you can peel them instantly and
easily, and then by cutting them in half, you can seed
them as well. This way you can also remove the bitter,
pithy core which otherwise typically passes through a
food mill.

--
Alex Rast [email hidden] (remove d., .7,
not, and .NOSPAM to reply)

[email hidden] (Shrubman) wrote in news:890b5b0a.0406162237.22b9e139
@posting.google.com:

Quoted message said:

Thanks a lot, both of you, for the quick response. I
should point out that, yes, I did have salt (forgot to
list it) and that the tomatoes were canned, peeled,
imported plum tomatoes with extra sauce removed.

Thanks!

I don't think it was the tomatoes.

--
Wayne in Phoenix

If there's a nit to pick, some nitwit will pick it.