how to adjust this old headset

Dan Lenski wrote:
<snip>

Quoted message said:

It has no wrench flats on the adjustable cup, just knurled so you can
turn it by hand. Above the adjustable cup it has a notched ring which
looks similar to a BB lockring, but annoyingly doesn't use the same

tool.

Quoted message said:

Above that there's a keyed washer and above that a locknut with

wrench

Quoted message said:

flats.

<snip>

Hi Dan,

I came across one similar to that before.
I got the best results (read: the only way the damn thing would stay
adjusted) by having the parts in the following order (from the top of
the stack down):
1.Locknut with flats.
2.Notched Ring.
3.Washer.
4.Knurled doo-dad.
5.Bearing, cup, head-tube etc...

This worked OK - adjust the knurled bit (is that not a cone rather than
a cup?), until it's about right.
Add the washer, and the lockring, and tighten down the lockring to
handtight + a little more on the washer. The washer prevents the
turning of the lockring from turning the knurled bit.
Then, holding the lockring as best as possible, tighten down the top
locknut against the lockring. With the lockring and locknut tightened
directly against each other, they tend not to come loose.

This took a few tries to get bang on, since tightening down on the
lockring tended to tighten down the cone a bit, and it all ended up a
bit tight.
In the end I left the cone a small bit (1/8 turn?)loose, then tightened
up on the lockring. This took out the "slop" I'd left in the cone.

Hope this helps,

Regards,

bookieb

Quoted message said:

This worked OK - adjust the knurled bit (is that not a cone rather

than

Quoted message said:

a cup?), until it's about right.

Oops, ya, it's a cone. Sorry for the confusion.

Quoted message said:

Add the washer, and the lockring, and tighten down the lockring to
handtight + a little more on the washer. The washer prevents the
turning of the lockring from turning the knurled bit.
Then, holding the lockring as best as possible, tighten down the top
locknut against the lockring. With the lockring and locknut

tightened

Quoted message said:

directly against each other, they tend not to come loose.

Seems the washer is in the wrong place on this one. Thank you for the
help, I am sure I'll have better luck with the washer in the right
place.

Dan

Quoted message said:

It has no wrench flats on the adjustable cup, just knurled so you can
turn it by hand. Above the adjustable cup it has a notched ring which
looks similar to a BB lockring, but annoyingly doesn't use the same tool.
Above that there's a keyed washer and above that a locknut with wrench
flats.

Dan: In all cases, we removed the idiot middle threaded piece (the one that
looked like it was made for a locknut tool) and replaced it with a keyed
washer. That threaded piece has no reasonable right to exist. Then you can
adjust things normally, although normal, in this case, means using a large
channel lock to hold the adjustable cone in place.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

"Dan Lenski" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Been working on my girlfriend's '83 Nishiki Sport, which has
decent SunTour/Sugino/DiaCompe. But the headset is all weird:

It has no wrench flats on the adjustable cup, just knurled so you can
turn it by hand. Above the adjustable cup it has a notched ring which
looks similar to a BB lockring, but annoyingly doesn't use the same tool.
Above that there's a keyed washer and above that a locknut with wrench
flats.

Anybody know how to adjust this thing? I don't really know what to do
with the notched lockring, it seems unnecessary except that I can't
hold the adjustment of the cup without it. In any case I can't
get it adjusted right except by sheer luck, and when I do it loosens up
within a few days.

I'd like to keep this headset because pressing a new one would be a big
hassle and the races are fine. Would it be a bad idea to scrounge up a
less ornery adjustable cup and just substitute it?

Dan

Quoted message said:

Dan: In all cases, we removed the idiot middle threaded piece (the

one that

Quoted message said:

looked like it was made for a locknut tool) and replaced it with a

keyed

Quoted message said:

washer. That threaded piece has no reasonable right to exist. Then

you can

Quoted message said:

adjust things normally, although normal, in this case, means using a

large

Quoted message said:

channel lock to hold the adjustable cone in place.

Thank you, Mike, confirms my suspicions about that piece. I'll try
using a channel lock. My LBS could probably find a normal adjustable
cone in their voluminous parts bin. Would it be a bad idea to simply
replace the cone?

search for -DIY headset- in tech

if the fork gets wobbley after a few miles then maybe its worn
elliptically and a new headset is on order: the adjustment can't go
several directuions at once. the wobble is a geometry problem
multiplying the small wear differential at the crown race.
the old before you deranged it setup coexisted in its particular race
then you...?
the parts should be interchangable-try fileing (file the one you have
to flats?)a new nut to a new headset wrench- a perfect match. clack.
if you need a new headset try ritchy or tange but use a spacer to
eliminate these headsets' lowness at 33.3.
if you don't go to a new headset right off try loose balls and red
loctite on a clean surface allowing for 48 hours cure time in a warm
environment.
the bike is old enough to say go to biketoolsect.com and look for the
goods
the notched washer is a little devil (throw ritchey's out and replace
with a "solid" washer-if i follow what is meant by "notched" as the
notch as a male notch extending beyond the rest of the circumference
slips bewteen threads as its tightened down tearing the exlaxitive
deleted out of your pipe

Quoted message said:

search for -DIY headset- in tech

if the fork gets wobbley after a few miles then maybe its worn
elliptically and a new headset is on order: the adjustment can't go
several directuions at once. the wobble is a geometry problem
multiplying the small wear differential at the crown race.
the old before you deranged it setup coexisted in its particular race
then you...?
the parts should be interchangable-try fileing (file the one you have
to flats?)a new nut to a new headset wrench- a perfect match. clack.
if you need a new headset try ritchy or tange but use a spacer to
eliminate these headsets' lowness at 33.3.
if you don't go to a new headset right off try loose balls and red
loctite on a clean surface allowing for 48 hours cure time in a warm
environment.
the bike is old enough to say go to biketoolsect.com and look for the
goods
the notched washer is a little devil (throw ritchey's out and replace
with a "solid" washer-if i follow what is meant by "notched" as the
notch as a male notch extending beyond the rest of the circumference
slips bewteen threads as its tightened down tearing the exlaxitive
deleted out of your pipe

I have had a couple of those headsets, both on Nishiki bikes, and both
were JIS standard (27.0mm crown race, 30.0mm headtube). I think those
are getting hard to find. Removing a bit of metal here and there will
convert the bike to the customary 26.4 30.2 size, but I don't know if
that is a good idea or not.

try

http://www.loosescrews.com/index.cgi?c=Headset&id=60779826448

and

http://www.biketoolsetc.com/index.cgi?id=2549554329&nr=11&b=&c=&sc=&tc=&q=tange%20headset&s=

Quoted message said:

try

http://www.loosescrews.com/index.cgi?c=Headset&id=60779826448

Looks like they have one JIS headset for $4.95. I wonder if that is a
really good deal, or a really crappy headset.

Quoted message said:

and

http://www.biketoolsetc.com/index.cgi?id=2549554329&nr=11&b=&c=&sc=&tc=&q=tange%20headset&s=

All the nice Tange Levin JIS headsets listed here are out of stock. I
wonder if that is temporary or permanent?

It seems that Tien Hsin makes 16 (!) flavors of JIS headset:
http://customer.manufacture.com.tw/~tienhsin/p10.htm
I wonder where they all go?

Quoted message said:

I have had a couple of those headsets, both on Nishiki bikes, and both
were JIS standard (27.0mm crown race, 30.0mm headtube). I think those
are getting hard to find. Removing a bit of metal here and there will
convert the bike to the customary 26.4 30.2 size, but I don't know if
that is a good idea or not.

Thanks, I thought this might be JIS but didn't know how to measure
the cup.

I guess what I am getting at is, would it be okay to use an ISO
cone on a JIS headset, or will they not mate properly?

They are selling a really crummy looking JIS headset for $5 on
loosescrews.com, but it has the same stupid cone I am trying to avoid :-P

Quoted message said:

Looks like they have one JIS headset for $4.95. I wonder if that is a
really good deal, or a really crappy headset.

I just found that too. But unfortunately, it has the dreaded knurled cone
I'm trying to avoid 🙁

Anyone know the gory details of whether an ISO cone will mate to a JIS
cup?

Quoted message said:

All the nice Tange Levin JIS headsets listed here are out of stock. I
wonder if that is temporary or permanent?

D'oh!!

Quoted message said:

It seems that Tien Hsin makes 16 (!) flavors of JIS headset:
http://customer.manufacture.com.tw/~tienhsin/p10.htm I wonder where they
all go?

Huffy, Roadmaster? Those bikes use some fairly outdated stuff. They make
'em look newer every year, but they still use the same old components.
Double-crown suspension forks with 1" threaded steerers and other such
abominations...

Thanks for the advice. FWIW, these are new bearing balls. I know how
to identify worn bearings and races and I'm confident that that's not
the problem. It's just an issue of adjusting the headset, due to the
stupid design.

In any case, I have found a few sources of new JIS headsets, including
Harris Cyclery. Before I do that, I think I'll try removing the
useless lockring and using a channel lock to hold the cone.

Dan

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Dan: In all cases, we removed the idiot middle threaded piece (the one that
looked like it was made for a locknut tool) and replaced it with a keyed
washer. That threaded piece has no reasonable right to exist. Then you can
adjust things normally, although normal, in this case, means using a large
channel lock to hold the adjustable cone in place.

That's what the VAR #73 headset pliers were made to do... :-)

--

John ([email hidden])

John Everett said:

YABTW, the bike is my Vitus 992, the model infamous for the "orphan
headset" which takes forty-some 1/8" balls. After 13 years it's still
hanging in there (whew!).

Put in a Stronglight roller bearing headset when it finally dies...

--

John ([email hidden])

Quoted message said:

John Everett said:

Quoted message said:

if the fork gets wobbly after a few miles then maybe its worn
elliptically and a new headset is on order: the adjustment can't go
several directions at once. the wobble is a geometry problem
multiplying the small wear differential at the crown race. the old
before you deranged it setup coexisted in its particular race then
you...?

Quoted message said:

Okay, here's another idea. Have you replaced the bearing balls or
are you reusing the old ones?

Quoted message said:

Many years ago when I serviced my first bottom bracket I cleaned
everything up, relubed, and reassembled using what I thought was an
acceptable preload. After the first ride the BB had developed some
slop. I had to pull the left crank and readjust the
preload. Sometime later I read that bearing balls wear into an
ellipsoid shape and if you reuse them it takes a ride or so to get
them to all settle back into their "worn in" position.

That advice was horribly off target. Bearing balls can rust or crack
but they do not wear into ellipsoids. Before passing such fables on
to others you ought to give it a cursory test. Just roll one of these
bearings across a smooth surface (dinner plate) and see if it rolls
around freely... which it can only do if it is spherical.

Quoted message said:

Could this possibly be the source of the headset wobble that
develops after a few miles?

I suspect that the bearing balls are not in the race. One ball out of
place is a classic error. It subsequently cuts a dent into the edge
on which it rests and the bearing is loose again. That is one of the
main reasons for using a bearing cage in head bearings. Do you have
caged bearing balls or are they loose?

Quoted message said:

BTW, since that first experience I now always replace the balls
whenever I have a cup-and-cone bearing apart. As a check I just now
(after typing the above paragraph) went down to the garage to check
the play on the BB, headset, and hubs of a bike I just rebuilt and
rode for the first time yesterday. No play! :-)

You may as well toss salt over your shoulder too.

Quoted message said:

YABTW, the bike is my Vitus 992, the model infamous for the "orphan
headset" which takes forty-some 1/8" balls. After 13 years it's
still hanging in there (whew!).

A head bearing with 1/8" balls is a terrible bearing. I think all the
other head bearings on the market with 3/16" balls have shown this.

[email hidden]

Have you taken a look into your Shimano headset bearings? I believe
they're 1/8".

Robin Hubert

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Dan: In all cases, we removed the idiot middle threaded piece (the one
that
looked like it was made for a locknut tool) and replaced it with a keyed
washer. That threaded piece has no reasonable right to exist. Then you
can
adjust things normally, although normal, in this case, means using a
large
channel lock to hold the adjustable cone in place.

That's what the VAR #73 headset pliers were made to do... :-)

As James Earl Jones said in "Field of Dreams"- OMG, you're from the 60s,
aren't you???!!!

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

John Thompson said:

John Everett said:

YABTW, the bike is my Vitus 992, the model infamous for the "orphan
headset" which takes forty-some 1/8" balls. After 13 years it's still
hanging in there (whew!).

Put in a Stronglight roller bearing headset when it finally dies...

Advice from someone clearly unfamiliar with the Vitus 992. :-|

jeverett3<AT>earthlink<DOT>net http://home.earthlink.net/~jeverett3