How much does L'Equipe hate Lance?

in message <[email hidden]>, Tom

Kunich (') said:

Unless you believe that the French are all violent Amerophobes the only
reason I can think of for the level of the attacks on Armstrong is a
personal grudge by a high ranking member of the staff.

Americans have a curiously one sided view of this. When the French - very
correctly - tell the US that invading Iraq on flimsy (and, in fact,
dishonest) 'evidence' is illegal and counter-productive and they won't
support the US on it, you[1] think it's OK to call them 'cheese eating
surrender monkeys'. When they're proved absolutely right on all points,
you don't apologise. The US chooses to paint itself as violently
Francophobic. Is it very surprising that the French (on the whole) don't
much like the Americans?

Hincapie throwing his bike and helmet around in a temper tantrum
yesterday just reinforces a European stereotype of Americans as arrogant
and immature. Headstrong was the poster boy for that stereotype. Yes,
there are a lot of pretty violent Amerophobes in Europe - but there are
reasons. You (as a group) don't do a lot to make yourself loved.

[1] for values of 'you' which include mainstream US popular culture. I
accept that many people reading this group may not have those attitudes.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; killing [afghan|iraqi] civilians is not 'justice'

"Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

"Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

Those astute enough to think back would remember that not only was Eddy
Merckx framed for doping, but many races including the Tour de France
paid him to NOT show. It wouldn't be hard to use that as a demonstration
that well-liked is hardly a word that was used for Eddy Merckx.

Do tell us which races paid Merckx to not appear.

Tour de France '73. Several Six Day races. Others.

Proof?

Maybe you're right. In any case, I believe that L'Equipe hates Marion
Jones
even more than Armstrong, because of her doping scandal
(similarly without any positive drug test, sanction, or legal decision
against
her), and they had previously loved her. However, they had previously
loved Marion Jones, unlike Armstrong, so she "let them down" by the
accusations of her cheating vindictive ex-husband and her disgruntled
ex-coach.

-ilan

benjo maso said:

"ilan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In their list of Tour de France legends Armstrong appears 5th, behind
Indurain!!
http://www.lequipe.fr/Cyclisme/TDF_06_LEGENDES.html
Once again, this proves L'Equipe's irrational hatred of Lance
Armstrong, since
his achievements are objectively superior to Indurain's in almost every
respect:
He won more Tours, he won more stages, he won many road stages during
his overal
wins (Indurain = 0), he won a stage in his first participation, he won
more stages
before his tour wins, etc., etc. He even gave up stage wins, a la
Indurain. As far
as I can tell, Indurain was superior to Armstrong in his domination of
the time
trials by almost 3 minutes in two of his tour wins.

Oh, and note that in their caption on Tour legends, Armstrong does not
even
appear, as they only give pictures of their top 4.

It doesn't prove anything. A list with Virenque and Jalabert, but without
Coppi and Bartali certainly doesn't pretend to be a list of the fifteen best
Tour-riders or something like that, but only a very subjective choice, not
of 'Equipe, but of a certain Bertrand Pertuis.

Benjo

ilan a écrit :

Quoted message said:

Maybe you're right. In any case, I believe that L'Equipe hates Marion
Jones
even more than Armstrong, because of her doping scandal
(similarly without any positive drug test, sanction, or legal decision
against
her), and they had previously loved her. However, they had previously
loved Marion Jones, unlike Armstrong, so she "let them down" by the
accusations of her cheating vindictive ex-husband and her disgruntled
ex-coach.

-ilan

For a guy in France, with a French wife, you seem really challenged to
understand this people. The French don't waste time hating. They just
cut to shreds anything that is susceptible of criticism. It's the No. 1
national sport. Stemming from long before the Revolution.

It's a particularly nasty race in Ile de France, more specifically in
Paris. Ideologues. You should know that. You probably know that. But
you want to sound like the injured ex-pat, forced to submit to the local
insults. You could always [censored] on France from afar, you know. Lots of
writers here do that with impunity. I guess you just want to be their
local hero.

--

Sandy
Verneuil-sur-Seine FR

--
Si les autres parties du monde ont des singes ; l'Europe a des Français.
Cela se compense.
[Arthur Schopenhauer]

Sandy said:

For a guy in France, with a French wife, you seem really challenged to
understand this people. The French don't waste time hating. They just
cut to shreds anything that is susceptible of criticism. It's the No. 1
national sport. Stemming from long before the Revolution.

It's a particularly nasty race in Ile de France, more specifically in
Paris. Ideologues. You should know that. You probably know that. But
you want to sound like the injured ex-pat, forced to submit to the local
insults. You could always [censored] on France from afar, you know. Lots of
writers here do that with impunity. I guess you just want to be their
local hero.

He's just cutting to shreds that which is susceptible to criticism.

I don't think it's reasonable to believe that Ilan says what he does
in order to be the hero of rbr's dingbat anti-French brigade.
Give Ilan credit for believing his own crazy ideas.

Ben

"ilan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Maybe you're right. In any case, I believe that L'Equipe hates Marion
Jones
even more than Armstrong, because of her doping scandal
(similarly without any positive drug test, sanction, or legal decision
against
her), and they had previously loved her. However, they had previously
loved Marion Jones, unlike Armstrong, so she "let them down" by the
accusations of her cheating vindictive ex-husband and her disgruntled
ex-coach.

Two years ago the French television conducted a survey to determine who was
the least liked sportsman in France Michael Schumacher finished first,
French soccer-player Anelka second, Armstrong third, Virenque sixth, Marion
Jones only tenth.

Benjo

benjo maso a écrit :

Quoted message said:

"ilan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Maybe you're right. In any case, I believe that L'Equipe hates Marion
Jones
even more than Armstrong, because of her doping scandal
(similarly without any positive drug test, sanction, or legal decision
against
her), and they had previously loved her. However, they had previously
loved Marion Jones, unlike Armstrong, so she "let them down" by the
accusations of her cheating vindictive ex-husband and her disgruntled
ex-coach.

Two years ago the French television conducted a survey to determine who was
the least liked sportsman in France Michael Schumacher finished first,
French soccer-player Anelka second, Armstrong third, Virenque sixth, Marion
Jones only tenth.

Benjo

We aren't fond of Anelka, wherever he may play. :-)

--

Bonne route !

Sandy
Verneuil-sur-Seine FR

"Sandy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

benjo maso a écrit :

Quoted message said:

"ilan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Maybe you're right. In any case, I believe that L'Equipe hates Marion
Jones
even more than Armstrong, because of her doping scandal
(similarly without any positive drug test, sanction, or legal decision
against
her), and they had previously loved her. However, they had previously
loved Marion Jones, unlike Armstrong, so she "let them down" by the
accusations of her cheating vindictive ex-husband and her disgruntled
ex-coach.

Two years ago the French television conducted a survey to determine who
was the least liked sportsman in France Michael Schumacher finished
first, French soccer-player Anelka second, Armstrong third, Virenque
sixth, Marion Jones only tenth.

Benjo

We aren't fond of Anelka, wherever he may play. :-)

So you really don't like Anelka? I always thought that the only reason of
letting him come in second in the poll was a typical French trick to hide
that they only hated Lance Armstrong because he was American :-)

Benjo

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

"Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

"Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> Those astute enough to think back would remember that not only was Eddy
> Merckx framed for doping, but many races including the Tour de France
> paid him to NOT show. It wouldn't be hard to use that as a
> demonstration that well-liked is hardly a word that was used for Eddy
> Merckx.

Do tell us which races paid Merckx to not appear.

Tour de France '73. Several Six Day races. Others.

Proof?

Proof? Since when did you care about proof for anything? Eddy Merckx himself
has said on SEVERAL occasions that he was paid not to attend the '73 Tour.
If you want "proof" (is the another part of the Millar Rule?) then ask him
yourself. Tell him you're a lawyer and will sue him if he doesn't have proof
of his statements.

"Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Tom

Kunich (') said:

Unless you believe that the French are all violent Amerophobes the only
reason I can think of for the level of the attacks on Armstrong is a
personal grudge by a high ranking member of the staff.

Americans have a curiously one sided view of this. When the French - very
correctly - tell the US that invading Iraq on flimsy (and, in fact,
dishonest) 'evidence'

Do tell us what you know about the "evidence". Another article in L'Equipe
was it?

"Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
>
> "Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:[email hidden]...
>> Those astute enough to think back would remember that not only was
>> Eddy Merckx framed for doping, but many races including the Tour de
>> France paid him to NOT show. It wouldn't be hard to use that as a
>> demonstration that well-liked is hardly a word that was used for Eddy
>> Merckx.
>
> Do tell us which races paid Merckx to not appear.

Tour de France '73. Several Six Day races. Others.

Proof?

Proof? Since when did you care about proof for anything?

You made an assertion, prove it.

Quoted message said:

Eddy Merckx himself has said on SEVERAL occasions that he was paid not to
attend the '73 Tour.

OK. Give us cites and sources to prove your assertion that Merckx said such
on several occasions.

Quoted message said:

If you want "proof" (is the another part of the Millar Rule?) then ask him
yourself. Tell him you're a lawyer and will sue him if he doesn't have
proof of his statements.

Strawman; and a stupid one like you at that.

Quoted message said:

For some reason, you think I'm an expatriate. More accurate would
be apatriate. I'm probably the only person on r.b.r who was actually
born in Paris (I'm also in the minority of Parisians born in Paris).

-ilan

Sandy said:

you want to sound like the injured ex-pat, forced to submit to the local
insults. You could always [censored] on France from afar, you know. Lots of
writers here do that with impunity. I guess you just want to be their
local hero.

Quoted message said:

B. Lafferty:
Proof? [about Merckx being paid not to race]

Besides the fact that Merckx has said so, the 1973 Tour Director
Jacques Goddet publicly stated that they would rather have "someone
else win the Tour for a change." Merckx had won the previous four Tours
and the French were starting to get itchy that someone might equal
Jacques Anquetil's then-record 5 Tour wins.

Merckx was so dominant in those four Tours (1969-1972), he won the Tour
and the points competition in all four. And in the first two (1969,
1970) he additionally won the King of the Mountains, the only two times
a rider has ever won the yellow, green, and polka dot jerseys in the
same Tour.

This isn't proof that he received payment not to race the '73 Tour. But
it sure is evidence that supports Merckx's assertion.

Quoted message said:

Is it very surprising that the French (on the whole) don't much like the Americans?

Please, spare me your politics. If it wasn't for the U.S., the French
would still be speaking German. They didn't even stand up to [censored]
when he invaded Paris, surrendering in 1940. Mr. [censored], care for
another glass of fine French wine?

Simon Brooke said:

Americans have a curiously one sided view of this. When the French - very
correctly - tell the US that invading Iraq on flimsy (and, in fact,
dishonest) 'evidence' is illegal and counter-productive and they won't
support the US on it, you[1] think it's OK to call them 'cheese eating
surrender monkeys'. When they're proved absolutely right on all points,
you don't apologise. The US chooses to paint itself as violently
Francophobic. Is it very surprising that the French (on the whole) don't
much like the Americans?

This is just the MO of apologists for our current administration. When
they can't attack the message, they attack the credibility of the
messenger. Google Karl Rove. Many of us never supported the war and
never had any issues with the French.

In the past two days, I've watched the TDF, cheered for France against
Brazil in the WC, gone for a ride on a bike with Michelin tires, drank
a bottle of Rhone wine, cooked a dinner of coq au vin and made plans
for an August vacation in the Pyrenees.

Bret

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Tom

Kunich (') said:

Unless you believe that the French are all violent Amerophobes the only
reason I can think of for the level of the attacks on Armstrong is a
personal grudge by a high ranking member of the staff.

Americans have a curiously one sided view of this. When the French - very
correctly - tell the US that invading Iraq on flimsy (and, in fact,
dishonest) 'evidence' is illegal and counter-productive and they won't
support the US on it, you[1] think it's OK to call them 'cheese eating
surrender monkeys'. When they're proved absolutely right on all points,
you don't apologise. The US chooses to paint itself as violently
Francophobic. Is it very surprising that the French (on the whole) don't
much like the Americans?

I have many European and other non-American coworkers
and colleagues. Most (all) of them are capable of making
distinctions between (1) the Bush administration, (2) right
wing talk show zombies, (3) the American public in general,
and (4) even the segment of the American public that does things
like visit Europe or watch soccer [football] or do bike races.

I haven't encountered the French, on the whole, not liking
Americans, although I have not been to France for a while.
Maybe this is something that only people who stay in France
participate in - but also, I think, it's a bit of wishful thinking
on the part of the English. Wouldn't it be nice if the French
found a bunch of Anglophones they despised more than
perfidious Albion?

Quoted message said:

Hincapie throwing his bike and helmet around in a temper tantrum
yesterday just reinforces a European stereotype of Americans as arrogant
and immature. Headstrong was the poster boy for that stereotype. Yes,
there are a lot of pretty violent Amerophobes in Europe - but there are
reasons. You (as a group) don't do a lot to make yourself loved.

Right, like that well known American bike [censored] Barney Riis.
Your personal stereotype sounds so much more logical when
you call it a "European" stereotype. Many people hold these
beliefs, but only at about the level of seriousness with which
American TV commercials depict Englishmen as toffs and
Frenchmen as carrying baguettes.

Quoted message said:

[1] for values of 'you' which include mainstream US popular culture. I
accept that many people reading this group may not have those attitudes.

One thing that many non-USanians may forget is that
mainstream US popular culture spends very little time
stereotyping foreign cultures. Mostly that's because it
generally ignores the existence of foreign cultures, but
so it goes.

Ben

"Razorback" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Is it very surprising that the French (on the whole) don't much like the
Americans?

Please, spare me your politics. If it wasn't for the U.S., the French
would still be speaking German.

Yeah, and if it weren't for the assistance of Lafayette et al during our own
Revolution, we'd all most likely be talking like Phil Liggett...

"Bret" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In the past two days, I've watched the TDF, cheered for France against
Brazil in the WC, gone for a ride on a bike with Michelin tires, drank
a bottle of Rhone wine, cooked a dinner of coq au vin and made plans
for an August vacation in the Pyrenees.

Damn. And I thought I was tres chic because I ate my French Fries with elan
and exhibited more than my usual je ne sais quoi while I watched "Fox News
Sunday".

In article <[email hidden]>,

Razorback said:

Quoted message said:

B. Lafferty:
Proof? [about Merckx being paid not to race]

Besides the fact that Merckx has said so, the 1973 Tour Director
Jacques Goddet publicly stated that they would rather have "someone
else win the Tour for a change." Merckx had won the previous four Tours
and the French were starting to get itchy that someone might equal
Jacques Anquetil's then-record 5 Tour wins.

Merckx was so dominant in those four Tours (1969-1972), he won the Tour
and the points competition in all four. And in the first two (1969,
1970) he additionally won the King of the Mountains, the only two times
a rider has ever won the yellow, green, and polka dot jerseys in the
same Tour.

In 1969, Merckx did not win the Young Rider jersey, but that was only
because it did not yet exist as a prize; otherwise, he would have
qualified for and won it as well.

For that matter, the KoM existed as a prize, but not one with an
attached jersey until 1975

http://www.torelli.com/kom/tdf/polka_dot_jersey.htm

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

in 511105 20060703 042304 'Razorback said:

Quoted message said:

Is it very surprising that the French (on the whole) don't much like the Americans?

Please, spare me your politics. If it wasn't for the U.S., the French
would still be speaking German. They didn't even stand up to [censored]
when he invaded Paris, surrendering in 1940. Mr. [censored], care for
another glass of fine French wine?

Not that old chestnut again. Read your history books.