How Fast Can I Do This?

Bailsibub said:

Hello,

I'm seeking advice/expertise on coming back to racing.

I used to race MTB and road, semi-pro and Cat 2, respectively, but I stopped about 5 years ago at 31. I kept riding, actually trained to compete in the state TT championships in 2005, but ran into problems that led me to stop riding...nothing physically related (at the time, I was shooting to break 55 min. in a 40k TT. (still p1ssed I couldn't race)).

I didn't ride for almost two years, went from good fitness to gaining 15 lbs and not saying no to burgers.

But I started training again in February. Getting back to it sucked, of course. I overdid it, got sick, got back to it...yada yada.... But now I'm starting to get a tiny bit faster. And last month, I got on a team.

Now here's the fun part. I recently found out we will be doing a road race in early September. It'll be 100-120 miles in mountainous terrain. I'm trying to be realistic with my goals for it. Here's the order of what I would like to accomplish (in order of importance): 1. finish! 2. help my team's fast guy 3. maybe get in a break and suck wheels to the finish

My mileage is now up to 70 miles (alone) on long days in the mountains. On those rides, I'm averaging @18 mph. It's tough, and after about 2.5 hours, I don't want to ride anymore. This is an out and back which takes me up two major climbs (ascending about 500 meters), so I do each one twice. I also do a team ride, but that's not consistent. It's usually pretty long (5 hours) with a lot of break stops. There's some fast riding, but I'm not taking many pulls. The other workout I'm doing is on the Turbo(Cycleops Fluid). I'm doing an hour total. With 7X5-minute intervals. During the first few intervals, I flip flop between the 17 and the 19 every minute. Then for the last few, I use the 15 and 17. I'm turning the pedals over pretty well (not spinning but not straining), my muscles feel like they are building some endurance in this workout. I'd like to get to an hour of intervals. And I usually train every other day.

So that's where I am fitness-wise. I'm not ready to race right now. But I need to get there before September. I've always been self-coached as I was a penniless bike racer. But I've never been pressed for time in getting fitness like this. It's in 3 months, which to me isn't long enough. So I'm looking for ideas and guidance from anyone here who has done something like this or knows how to go about getting some half-way decent form together relatively quickly. Intervals? A visit to Anaerobia?

Thanks

Good work on the comeback. It sucks I know. I'm going to have to do the same thing myself at some stage after a long unplanned enforced lay off the bike.

You have an interesting challenge. Are you still "penniless"? Coaching and a power meter sounds like the answer to me.

Alex,

Thanks for the encouragement. It's weird getting back to it. But the legs seem to have a good memory for the movement, so it's nothing impossible. It just takes time (which is my concern).

Unfortunately, I can't get a power meter as I'm living overseas.

Alex Simmons said:

Good work on the comeback. It sucks I know. I'm going to have to do the same thing myself at some stage after a long unplanned enforced lay off the bike.

You have an interesting challenge. Are you still "penniless"? Coaching and a power meter sounds like the answer to me.

Bailsibub said:

Unfortunately, I can't get a power meter as I'm living overseas.

Are they banned? No delivery service?

Yes, Critical Power zones are illegal in these parts!

Actually, customs would double the price where I'm living.

As time is important for me, I'll list my training plans for the next three months, with specificity for the event in mind.

I'll be training about every other day as this has been what's worked best with me over the years. I'm not obsessed with workout days, so an extra day on or off here and there will occur. It depends on my team's plans, my feelings, and the weather (gut it out on the trainer or take the day off)

Workout #1: I'm doing one workout on the trainer each week: warm-up followed by the 5-minute intervals(2 min. recoveries) I described in the earlier post; these are done at a hard pace, I'd say an 8 out of 10. As the weeks progress, I want to add more to accumulate an hour of these in one workout.

Workout #2: Morning ride to mountain, climb it as fast as I can. Luckily, there are some big, steep mountains where I live. The one I usually work out on is about 2 miles long, and it goes up over 1000 ft.. It's steep. Right now, it's taking me about 10 minutes to get up, but I did it faster this weekend with some teammates...thought I was going to pop but I held on. I'd like to get to a point where I could do some repeats on the steep side (the other side is gradual) maybe 3???. But the terrain is dictating the pace for the most part and it takes a lot out of me just doing one. Working out outside on a hill like this is a lot different than a trainer!

Workout #3: Long ride alone. I described this one before. Now I'm doing 70 miles but I want to get this to race distance over the months.

Workout #4: Team ride. This one is long. 5-7 hours. Sometimes fast. Sometimes chill. I did one this weekend(as I mentioned, with the hill climb) the day after a trainer workout. Managed to do it, no problems.

So I'll be spreading these out and working on these skills. I'm thinking in the month before the race of just focusing on anaerobic intervals as they increased my power a lot in the past (but I focused on only them for 3 months, not 1). I did these by starting at 1 min. as hard as I could. Then over time, I increased the repetitions and durations, getting to where I could hold my speed for 4 minutes (my palms are sweating over these as I'm typing)

On a good note, I weighed myself this weekend, and I'm down to 72 kg now. First time I've weighed myself since I started training this year. I'll be very happy if I can get to 69 for the race.

Bailsibub said:

As time is important for me, I'll list my training plans for the next three months, with specificity for the event in mind.

I'll be training about every other day as this has been what's worked best with me over the years. I'm not obsessed with workout days, so an extra day on or off here and there will occur. It depends on my team's plans, my feelings, and the weather (gut it out on the trainer or take the day off)

Workout #1: I'm doing one workout on the trainer each week: warm-up followed by the 5-minute intervals(2 min. recoveries) I described in the earlier post; these are done at a hard pace, I'd say an 8 out of 10. As the weeks progress, I want to add more to accumulate an hour of these in one workout.

Workout #2: Morning ride to mountain, climb it as fast as I can. Luckily, there are some big, steep mountains where I live. The one I usually work out on is about 2 miles long, and it goes up over 1000 ft.. It's steep. Right now, it's taking me about 10 minutes to get up, but I did it faster this weekend with some teammates...thought I was going to pop but I held on. I'd like to get to a point where I could do some repeats on the steep side (the other side is gradual) maybe 3???. But the terrain is dictating the pace for the most part and it takes a lot out of me just doing one. Working out outside on a hill like this is a lot different than a trainer!

Workout #3: Long ride alone. I described this one before. Now I'm doing 70 miles but I want to get this to race distance over the months.

Workout #4: Team ride. This one is long. 5-7 hours. Sometimes fast. Sometimes chill. I did one this weekend(as I mentioned, with the hill climb) the day after a trainer workout. Managed to do it, no problems.

So I'll be spreading these out and working on these skills. I'm thinking in the month before the race of just focusing on anaerobic intervals as they increased my power a lot in the past (but I focused on only them for 3 months, not 1). I did these by starting at 1 min. as hard as I could. Then over time, I increased the repetitions and durations, getting to where I could hold my speed for 4 minutes (my palms are sweating over these as I'm typing)

On a good note, I weighed myself this weekend, and I'm down to 72 kg now. First time I've weighed myself since I started training this year. I'll be very happy if I can get to 69 for the race.

Far be it for me to advise an ex Cat 2/semi-pro rider, but I am curious as to why you are doing mostly VO2 Max intervals (5 minutes). Personally I would also be working on raising my FTP by doing 2x20 or 2x30 intervals. The VO2 Max intervals will stand you in good stead for the shorter climbs (of around 5 minutes) but they won't help you much on longer climbs and won't help you to relax at the back of the bunch at 80/85% or so of your FTP.
Just curious. Maybe I've got it wrong. TYSON 😉

Sillyoldtwit said:

Far be it for me to advise an ex Cat 2/semi-pro rider, but I am curious as to why you are doing mostly VO2 Max intervals (5 minutes). Personally I would also be working on raising my FTP by doing 2x20 or 2x30 intervals. The VO2 Max intervals will stand you in good stead for the shorter climbs (of around 5 minutes) but they won't help you much on longer climbs and won't help you to relax at the back of the bunch at 80/85% or so of your FTP.

Just curious. Maybe I've got it wrong. TYSON 😉

Thanks for the reply Tyson. And it doesn't matter what level a person is as long as they can help me get faster! I've been following your "killing me" thread and I just wanted to give you props for sticking to it. We're actually 'neighbors' as I'm in Korea.

I'm actually doing those 5-minute intervals at what your describing as 2X20 pace. I'm not gasping for air during them, and I'm doing 35 minutes of them even now at my low level of fitness. (the most VO2 max intervals I've ever been able to do was like 25-30 min. in workout *cringe*) Anyway, I plan to get up to doing an hour of these 5-minute ones before my comeback race.

I'm addressing the longer efforts by doing the long hill climbs, and hours of tempo with the team and alone. But that's all on the undulating type of terrain I'll be racing on. The longest climbs I have here take 15 min. and they aren't steady.

Anyway, I'm one for specificity, so I don't want to spread out my power over 20 minutes if I'll never be doing a steady climb for 20 minutes. I think the longest climb I've ever done in a race was right around 20 minutes. There, people were attacking, the hill was kicking and leveling out, so it was far from a steady effort.

Bailsibub said:

Thanks for the reply Tyson. And it doesn't matter what level a person is as long as they can help me get faster! I've been following your "killing me" thread and I just wanted to give you props for sticking to it. We're actually 'neighbors' as I'm in Korea.

I'm actually doing those 5-minute intervals at what your describing as 2X20 pace. I'm not gasping for air during them, and I'm doing 35 minutes of them even now at my low level of fitness. (the most VO2 max intervals I've ever been able to do was like 25-30 min. in workout *cringe*) Anyway, I plan to get up to doing an hour of these 5-minute ones before my comeback race.

I'm addressing the longer efforts by doing the long hill climbs, and hours of tempo with the team and alone. But that's all on the undulating type of terrain I'll be racing on. The longest climbs I have here take 15 min. and they aren't steady.

Anyway, I'm one for specificity, so I don't want to spread out my power over 20 minutes if I'll never be doing a steady climb for 20 minutes. I think the longest climb I've ever done in a race was right around 20 minutes. There, people were attacking, the hill was kicking and leveling out, so it was far from a steady effort.

I assume by 5 minute intervals you mean a 5 minute interval followed by 5 minutes rest. Now, I could be wrong, but doing them at even 100% FTP pace (level 4) I wouldn't think you would be deriving the maximum benefit from them. Also doing 20/30/40 minute intervals will raise your FTP and as I said before, make the long rides easier. (forget the hills) Let's assume the guy heading the bunch is turning out 330watts, then you tucked in behind, if you have sufficient sustainable power, could cruise along and feel comfortable at 230/240W. If you're only doing 5 minute intervals (and low power at that) then someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but you would have difficulty hanging on in there.
Maybe you are one of the lucky few with natural power, but still you are not riding to the best of your potential by limiting yourself to lowish power 5 minute intervals.
You say you train for longer rides by riding at tempo. Tempo means different things to different people and is difficult to precisely define. But I think most people agree, it isn't intense effort.

Anyway, someone will probably chip in and shoot me down.

It's only my opinion after all.Tyson😉

Sillyoldtwit said:

I assume by 5 minute intervals you mean a 5 minute interval followed by 5 minutes rest. Now, I could be wrong, but doing them at even 100% FTP pace (level 4) I wouldn't think you would be deriving the maximum benefit from them. Also doing 20/30/40 minute intervals will raise your FTP and as I said before, make the long rides easier. (forget the hills) Let's assume the guy heading the bunch is turning out 330watts, then you tucked in behind, if you have sufficient sustainable power, could cruise along and feel comfortable at 230/240W. If you're only doing 5 minute intervals (and low power at that) then someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but you would have difficulty hanging on in there.
Maybe you are one of the lucky few with natural power, but still you are not riding to the best of your potential by limiting yourself to lowish power 5 minute intervals.
You say you train for longer rides by riding at tempo. Tempo means different things to different people and is difficult to precisely define. But I think most people agree, it isn't intense effort.

Anyway, someone will probably chip in and shoot me down.

It's only my opinion after all.Tyson😉

Hey Tyson,

Maybe I got 2x20 pacing wrong. Five-minute intervals don't take place at a relatively slow pace. It's sustainable, but it's not at VO2 max. (I'm not saying TT pace because I don't want this thread to break up into a terminology discussion)

The reason I'm not cutting the long intervals into 5 minutes is because I believe I can do more total work at higher outputs. And the regular recoveries of 1 to 2 minutes keep me fresher to do more. Maybe I'm wrong and should be doing 2X20s, which I have tried in the past, but how often does someone face a steady effort of 20 minutes? I live in a mountainous area. But the longest climbs take between 10 and 15 minutes, and the efforts up them are far from steady. I'm worried a 20-minute interval on a trainer would leave me flat when a hill kicks or someone attacks.

And you touched on an important point. I shouldn't have said tempo(again the terminology thing). But the pace at which I'm riding in a group in a racing scenario, which is what I'm doing a lot of on group rides(but not for an extended period). It's not an attacking speed, but it's at a 'little-hard-to-talk pace'. If you are familiar with Joe Friel's books, this workout is done in the base 2 month. On your own, it's not too bad for the first 30 minutes or so, but it can get tough to hold this pace for 90 minutes even at a good fitness level. Right now, I think I can hold this pace for 30-40 minutes but I need to hold it longer(and increase my sustainable speed at this pace).

So I'm trying to get some speed for when guys go fast. I'm trying to build up the pace and endurance for pack riding. But if you think the 20 minute intervals would work better, I'll try them out. I know you were able to increase your sustainable power for 20 minutes, and that can translate into higher wattages at higher power. I want to get ready for this thing and maybe do something...make the cyclingforums board proud!

Oops, I meant to say the reason I'm cutting the long intervals in the previous post. Sorry

Bailsibub said:

Hey Tyson,

Maybe I got 2x20 pacing wrong. Five-minute intervals don't take place at a relatively slow pace. It's sustainable, but it's not at VO2 max. (I'm not saying TT pace because I don't want this thread to break up into a terminology discussion)

The reason I'm not cutting the long intervals into 5 minutes is because I believe I can do more total work at higher outputs. And the regular recoveries of 1 to 2 minutes keep me fresher to do more. Maybe I'm wrong and should be doing 2X20s, which I have tried in the past, but how often does someone face a steady effort of 20 minutes? I live in a mountainous area. But the longest climbs take between 10 and 15 minutes, and the efforts up them are far from steady. I'm worried a 20-minute interval on a trainer would leave me flat when a hill kicks or someone attacks.

And you touched on an important point. I shouldn't have said tempo(again the terminology thing). But the pace at which I'm riding in a group in a racing scenario, which is what I'm doing a lot of on group rides(but not for an extended period). It's not an attacking speed, but it's at a 'little-hard-to-talk pace'. If you are familiar with Joe Friel's books, this workout is done in the base 2 month. On your own, it's not too bad for the first 30 minutes or so, but it can get tough to hold this pace for 90 minutes even at a good fitness level. Right now, I think I can hold this pace for 30-40 minutes but I need to hold it longer(and increase my sustainable speed at this pace).

So I'm trying to get some speed for when guys go fast. I'm trying to build up the pace and endurance for pack riding. But if you think the 20 minute intervals would work better, I'll try them out. I know you were able to increase your sustainable power for 20 minutes, and that can translate into higher wattages at higher power. I want to get ready for this thing and maybe do something...make the cyclingforums board proud!

Bailsibub said:

Yes, Critical Power zones are illegal in these parts!

Actually, customs would double the price where I'm living.

Here is what I do. I buy it and have it delivered to my father then repackages it (Wrap it in Brown paper.) he sends it to me and puts on the customs form gift, books, toys, etc. insures it for the cost of replacement in the US and mails it to me. Since it is from an individual it just glides through customs here with no duties to be paid.

I have a friend who mail orders from the same company and they know to send the invoice in a seperate letter addressed to him and mail the package with no invoice inside so if Customs takes a peak they assume it is from an individual. Everything is insured so if it "disappears in route" he can get his money back. (he has had 600USD worth of PARK tools sent in one go that way plus misc parts never had a problem.)

Maybe worth a try.