How "Epic" Is The Modern TdF?

B. Lafferty said:

Epic? What would Henri say from across the veil?

Henri? Oh, I killfiled him years ago.

Bob Schwartz [email hidden]

Maybe the nature of the challenge has changed. Compare Formula 1 now and 30 years ago. Speeds are
MUCH higher, the challenge is different.

Roger B

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

LeBlanc has modernized the Tour since he took over. But how epic is the

Tour

Quoted message said:

now?

Post WWII total average time in the saddle for the winner by decades:

1947-1960 135hr 1961-1970 123hr 1971-1980 110hr 1981-1990 100hr 1991-2000 96hr 2001-2003 83hr

Increases in average speed due to equipment advances and better training account for some of the
declining times. However, through the 60s the Tour was usually 21-23 stages. It's now generally
20. Total distances have dropped over this period as well.

Epic? What would Henri say from across the veil?

"benjo maso" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Nowadays the Tour is hardly epic at all. The essence of the epic is the

hero

Quoted message said:

fighting all alone against incredible odds, like Ronald or Vivien on the battlefields of
Roncevalles or Archamps. Desgrange was well aware of it,

and

Quoted message said:

tried to make the Tour as individual as possible. All the great myths of

the

Quoted message said:

Tour, like Eugene Cristophe forging a new fork in the Pyrenees, etc., but also the vissicitudes of
many unknown riders in mountain stages, looking

for

Quoted message said:

food, many hours after the first had passed, were only possible because of those principles. Of
course, because of these draconic rules riders had to suffer more than necessary, but Desgrange
being convinced of the

educational

Quoted message said:

value of suffering, was only too happy about it. "Suffering is the

complete

Quoted message said:

development of willpower. Prove being a man!", he once said to

Trousellier,

Quoted message said:

who was complaining of the incredible difficulties he had to surmount. If Desgrange could have
seen the Tour of 2003, I'm sure he would have been aghast. If he had seen how Telekom or Lotto
were leading their sprinters

to

Quoted message said:

the last 200 m or how the US Postals assisted their leader in the

mountains,

Quoted message said:

he would have changed the regulations immediately to make it impossible.

And

Quoted message said:

if someone had explained the functioning or earphones to him, he probably would have had a
heart-attack.

Good post, Benjo.

It sounds like the old TdF has more in common with today's Adventure Racing than today's TdF.

benjo maso said:

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

LeBlanc has modernized the Tour since he took over. But how epic is the

Tour

Quoted message said:

now?

Post WWII total average time in the saddle for the winner by decades:

1947-1960 135hr 1961-1970 123hr 1971-1980 110hr 1981-1990 100hr 1991-2000 96hr 2001-2003 83hr

Increases in average speed due to equipment advances and better training account for some of the
declining times. However, through the 60s the Tour was usually 21-23 stages. It's now generally
20. Total distances have dropped over this period as well.

Epic? What would Henri say from across the veil?

Nowadays the Tour is hardly epic at all. The essence of the epic is the hero fighting all alone
against incredible odds, like Ronald or Vivien on the battlefields of Roncevalles or Archamps.
Desgrange was well aware of it, and tried to make the Tour as individual as possible. All the
great myths of the Tour, like Eugene Cristophe forging a new fork in the Pyrenees, etc., but also
the vissicitudes of many unknown riders in mountain stages, looking for food, many hours after the
first had passed, were only possible because of those principles. Of course, because of these
draconic rules riders had to suffer more than necessary, but Desgrange being convinced of the
educational value of suffering, was only too happy about it. "Suffering is the complete
development of willpower. Prove being a man!", he once said to Trousellier, who was complaining of
the incredible difficulties he had to surmount. If Desgrange could have seen the Tour of 2003, I'm
sure he would have been aghast. If he had seen how Telekom or Lotto were leading their sprinters
to the last 200 m or how the US Postals assisted their leader in the mountains, he would have
changed the regulations immediately to make it impossible. And if someone had explained the
functioning or earphones to him, he probably would have had a heart-attack.

Benjo Maso

Ah, yes. The Days of the Giants. Suffering is good for the soul. I have some colleagues that
seem to feel that way, but I don't recommend them.

Steve

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 dentaltwins.comdentaltwins.comOpen ↗

"benjo maso" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

LeBlanc has modernized the Tour since he took over. But how epic is the

Tour

Quoted message said:

now?

Post WWII total average time in the saddle for the winner by decades:

1947-1960 135hr 1961-1970 123hr 1971-1980 110hr 1981-1990 100hr 1991-2000 96hr 2001-2003 83hr

Increases in average speed due to equipment advances and better training account for some of the
declining times. However, through the 60s the

Tour

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

was usually 21-23 stages. It's now generally 20. Total distances have dropped over this period
as well.

Epic? What would Henri say from across the veil?

Nowadays the Tour is hardly epic at all. The essence of the epic is the

hero

Quoted message said:

fighting all alone against incredible odds, like Ronald or Vivien on the battlefields of
Roncevalles or Archamps. Desgrange was well aware of it,

and

Quoted message said:

tried to make the Tour as individual as possible. All the great myths of

the

Quoted message said:

Tour, like Eugene Cristophe forging a new fork in the Pyrenees, etc., but also the vissicitudes of
many unknown riders in mountain stages, looking

for

Quoted message said:

food, many hours after the first had passed, were only possible because of those principles. Of
course, because of these draconic rules riders had to suffer more than necessary, but Desgrange
being convinced of the

educational

Quoted message said:

value of suffering, was only too happy about it. "Suffering is the

complete

Quoted message said:

development of willpower. Prove being a man!", he once said to

Trousellier,

Quoted message said:

who was complaining of the incredible difficulties he had to surmount. If Desgrange could have
seen the Tour of 2003, I'm sure he would have been aghast. If he had seen how Telekom or Lotto
were leading their sprinters

to

Quoted message said:

the last 200 m or how the US Postals assisted their leader in the

mountains,

Quoted message said:

he would have changed the regulations immediately to make it impossible.

And

Quoted message said:

if someone had explained the functioning or earphones to him, he probably would have had a
heart-attack.

Benjo Maso

I agree that HD would be appalled. Looking back pre-WWII

1921-29 209hr average with all but one race 5000km+ 1931-39 147hr average will most races in the
4000km range.

The period from 1947 to the end of the Merckx era seems to me a very special time for the Tour.
Not so today.

"David N. Welton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

B. Lafferty said:

LeBlanc has modernized the Tour since he took over. But how epic is the Tour now?

Quoted message said:

Post WWII total average time in the saddle for the winner by decades:

Quoted message said:

1947-1960 135hr 1961-1970 123hr 1971-1980 110hr 1981-1990 100hr 1991-2000 96hr 2001-2003 83hr

Interesting data!

Quoted message said:

Increases in average speed due to equipment advances and better training account for some of the
declining times. However, through the 60s the Tour was usually 21-23 stages. It's now generally
20. Total distances have dropped over this period as well.

Another bit you could put in there is the average time between first and second, and, say, some
other gaps...

I've often thought about this. The riders are still doing the same stages they did in the 1960's
when the roads weren't even paved, and they didn't have all the preperation and support they do
now. Supposedly, making the race tougher encourages doping.

It does tend to turn the doping excuse on its head. The use of concoctions (the bomb) with
cocaine, heroin, speed and alcohol to deaden pain and survive is quite understandable. Doping
today isn't about survival despite the cry that the Tour is too difficult to do without the
current dope being used.

I wonder how many Tours Pantani would have ridden/made it through in the
1930s.

"Steven Bornfeld DDS" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ah, yes. Suffering is good for the soul. I have some colleagues that seem to feel that way, but I
don't recommend them.

Phoebus Farb?

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Benjo Maso

I agree that HD would be appalled. Looking back pre-WWII

1921-29 209hr average with all but one race 5000km+ 1931-39 147hr average will most races in the
4000km range.

The period from 1947 to the end of the Merckx era seems to me a very

special

Quoted message said:

time for the Tour. Not so today.

The sport has changed.

If you don't like it, I'm sure there are many other things you could do with your time.
Life is short.

Yeah, but modern riders don't stop at roadside stands and cafes for a bite to eat and some wine
during the race. Those early racers - what babies!

Todd Kuzma

Robert Chung said:

"Steven Bornfeld DDS" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ah, yes. Suffering is good for the soul. I have some colleagues that seem to feel that way, but
I don't recommend them.

Phoebus Farb?

I was thinking Marathon Man, but either way...

Steve

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 dentaltwins.comdentaltwins.comOpen ↗

Robert Chung said:

"Steven Bornfeld DDS" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ah, yes. Suffering is good for the soul. I have some colleagues that seem to feel that way, but I
don't recommend them.

Phoebus Farb?

John Calvin. Thomas Hobbes.

Now it is Calvin and Hobbes. Different kind of suffering.

Nor do they stop to take a cooling dip in the Med. But then today's riders don't suffer in wool.

"Todd Kuzma" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Yeah, but modern riders don't stop at roadside stands and cafes for a bite to eat and some wine
during the race. Those early racers - what babies!

Todd Kuzma

B. Lafferty said:

LeBlanc has modernized the Tour since he took over. But how epic is the Tour now?

Quoted message said:

Post WWII total average time in the saddle for the winner by decades:

Quoted message said:

1947-1960 135hr 1961-1970 123hr 1971-1980 110hr 1981-1990 100hr 1991-2000 96hr 2001-2003 83hr

Interesting data!

Quoted message said:

Increases in average speed due to equipment advances and better training account for some of the
declining times. However, through the 60s the Tour was usually 21-23 stages. It's now generally
20. Total distances have dropped over this period as well.

Another bit you could put in there is the average time between first and second, and, say, some
other gaps...

I've often thought about this. The riders are still doing the same stages they did in the 1960's
when the roads weren't even paved, and they didn't have all the preperation and support they do now.
Supposedly, making the race tougher encourages doping.

--
David N. Welton Consulting: dedasys.comdedasys.comOpen ↗ Personal: dedasys.comdavidwOpen ↗ Free
Software: dedasys.comfreesoftwareOpen ↗ Apache Tcl: tcl.apache.orgtcl.apache.orgOpen ↗

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

LeBlanc has modernized the Tour since he took over. But how epic is the

Tour

Quoted message said:

now?

Post WWII total average time in the saddle for the winner by decades:

1947-1960 135hr 1961-1970 123hr 1971-1980 110hr 1981-1990 100hr 1991-2000 96hr 2001-2003 83hr

Increases in average speed due to equipment advances and better training account for some of the
declining times. However, through the 60s the Tour was usually 21-23 stages. It's now generally
20. Total distances have dropped over this period as well.

Epic? What would Henri say from across the veil?

Nowadays the Tour is hardly epic at all. The essence of the epic is the hero fighting all alone
against incredible odds, like Ronald or Vivien on the battlefields of Roncevalles or Archamps.
Desgrange was well aware of it, and tried to make the Tour as individual as possible. All the great
myths of the Tour, like Eugene Cristophe forging a new fork in the Pyrenees, etc., but also the
vissicitudes of many unknown riders in mountain stages, looking for food, many hours after the first
had passed, were only possible because of those principles. Of course, because of these draconic
rules riders had to suffer more than necessary, but Desgrange being convinced of the educational
value of suffering, was only too happy about it. "Suffering is the complete development of
willpower. Prove being a man!", he once said to Trousellier, who was complaining of the incredible
difficulties he had to surmount. If Desgrange could have seen the Tour of 2003, I'm sure he would
have been aghast. If he had seen how Telekom or Lotto were leading their sprinters to the last 200 m
or how the US Postals assisted their leader in the mountains, he would have changed the regulations
immediately to make it impossible. And if someone had explained the functioning or earphones to him,
he probably would have had a heart-attack.

Benjo Maso

In article <[email hidden]>, "B. Lafferty"

Quoted message said:

I agree that HD would be appalled. Looking back pre-WWII

1921-29 209hr average with all but one race 5000km+

Holy [censored]! Can you imagine the OLN coverage? Oh yeah, that's right, it was CBS radio back then with
Josiah Tesh commentating.

"benjo maso" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Nowadays the Tour is hardly epic at all. The essence of the epic is the

hero

Quoted message said:

fighting all alone against incredible odds, like Ronald or Vivien on the battlefields of
Roncevalles or Archamps. Desgrange was well aware of it,

and

Quoted message said:

tried to make the Tour as individual as possible. All the great myths of

the

Quoted message said:

Tour, like Eugene Cristophe forging a new fork in the Pyrenees, etc., but also the vissicitudes of
many unknown riders in mountain stages, looking

for

Quoted message said:

food, many hours after the first had passed, were only possible because

of

Quoted message said:

those principles. Of course, because of these draconic rules riders had

to

Quoted message said:

suffer more than necessary, but Desgrange being convinced of the

educational

Quoted message said:

value of suffering, was only too happy about it. "Suffering is the

complete

Quoted message said:

development of willpower. Prove being a man!", he once said to

Trousellier,

Quoted message said:

who was complaining of the incredible difficulties he had to surmount. If Desgrange could have
seen the Tour of 2003, I'm sure he would have

been

Quoted message said:

aghast. If he had seen how Telekom or Lotto were leading their sprinters

to

Quoted message said:

the last 200 m or how the US Postals assisted their leader in the

mountains,

Quoted message said:

he would have changed the regulations immediately to make it impossible.

And

Quoted message said:

if someone had explained the functioning or earphones to him, he probably would have had a
heart-attack.

Benjo Maso

Personally the main thing I would really like to see is radio communication being banned.

Snipped alot of items

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Personally the main thing I would really like to see is radio communication being banned.

I agree make the riders atleast think once and awhile instead of just listening.

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

LeBlanc has modernized the Tour since he took over. But how epic is the Tour now?

Post WWII total average time in the saddle for the winner by decades:

1947-1960 135hr 1961-1970 123hr 1971-1980 110hr 1981-1990 100hr 1991-2000 96hr 2001-2003 83hr

Increases in average speed due to equipment advances and better training account for some of the
declining times. However, through the 60s the Tour was usually 21-23 stages. It's now generally
20. Total distances have dropped over this period as well.

Yeah and it was uphill both ways back then.

Andy

Quoted message said:

Epic? What would Henri say from across the veil?