How Do These Airborne Specs Look?

Actually, they're $1,200 -- hot deal?

And how's this seat?

http://pedalpusherbikeshop.com/site/itemdetails.cfm?ID=438&Catalog=39&sort=3rdcharacter

TIA!

NYC XYZ said:

Vis-a-vis the price, anyway -- $1,300 for 19-lb. bikes!!

http://www.airborne.net/eready/janette/Store/05LXTI-special.asp

http://www.airborne.net/eready/janette/store/05TB-special.asp

The first link is to a TITANIUM frame upright, while the second is for
the Thunderbolt with an aluminum frame. Oddly enough, the aluminum
bike weighs slightly less than the titanium one?? Components, I
suppose -- so what do y'all think of 'em?

For example...caliper brakes?? 9-speed cassette??

Which one would you get, if these were the choices?

How do they compare to your current bike -- etc.?

"NYC XYZ" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Vis-a-vis the price, anyway -- $1,300 for 19-lb. bikes!!

http://www.airborne.net/eready/janette/Store/05LXTI-special.asp

http://www.airborne.net/eready/janette/store/05TB-special.asp

The first link is to a TITANIUM frame upright, while the second is for
the Thunderbolt with an aluminum frame. Oddly enough, the aluminum
bike weighs slightly less than the titanium one?? Components, I
suppose -- so what do y'all think of 'em?

For example...caliper brakes?? 9-speed cassette??

Which one would you get, if these were the choices?

How do they compare to your current bike -- etc.?

One is a flat bar bike, the other is a drop bar bike. They are not
comparable. If you don't know whether you're in the market for one or the
other, you shouldn't be considering either one.

I can attest to the quality and overall wonderfulness of the Airborne Carpe
Diem I bought four years ago, FWIW. It's still my #1 bike, with somewhere
around 14k miles on it.

RichC

NYC XYZ said:

Actually, they're $1,200 -- hot deal?

And how's this seat?

http://pedalpusherbikeshop.com/site/itemdetails.cfm?ID=438&Catalog=39&sort=3rdcharacter

Dude (or Dudette), you REALLY should visit a bike shop. You're all over the
map -- and unlike most who want to spend, say, $60.00, you're actually
talking about some real money. (Hint: why shop for a heavy, way-too-soft
saddle until you actually TRY the one that comes with your new bike. A bike
that OUGHT TO FIT YOU, by the way...)

Bill "get thee to an LBS-ery" S.

"NYC XYZ" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Vis-a-vis the price, anyway -- $1,300 for 19-lb. bikes!!

http://www.airborne.net/eready/janette/Store/05LXTI-special.asp

http://www.airborne.net/eready/janette/store/05TB-special.asp

The first link is to a TITANIUM frame upright, while the second is for
the Thunderbolt with an aluminum frame. Oddly enough, the aluminum
bike weighs slightly less than the titanium one?? Components, I
suppose -- so what do y'all think of 'em?

For example...caliper brakes?? 9-speed cassette??

Which one would you get, if these were the choices?

How do they compare to your current bike -- etc.?

why would you want a titanium hybrid?

Bill Sornson said:

Dude (or Dudette), you REALLY should visit a bike shop. You're all over the
map -- and unlike most who want to spend, say, $60.00, you're actually
talking about some real money. (Hint: why shop for a heavy, way-too-soft
saddle until you actually TRY the one that comes with your new bike. A bike
that OUGHT TO FIT YOU, by the way...)

Bill "get thee to an LBS-ery" S.

So how's the bike? =)

These particular models are sold exclusively through the manufacturer,
and only online, too -- at least at this price.

As for the seat, I've never known a bike seat to be "comfortable," so
anything the least bit ergonomic gets my attention.

Seriously, how do the specs look? I want my shifts to shift right
away, and I'm leery of the claiper brakes...but I'm only just
above-average when it comes to bike knowledge and know-how, so I was
hoping you could help.

=)

Rich Clark said:

One is a flat bar bike, the other is a drop bar bike. They are not
comparable. If you don't know whether you're in the market for one or the
other, you shouldn't be considering either one.

I prefer the more upright one (flatbar), but I'm thinking its
components may be less than desirable, since it's a titanium frame
selling for the same as the aluminum one which the same manufacturer is
claiming to be spec'ed-out nicely (which may well be true since it
actually weighs in slightly less than the ti!).

Quoted message said:

I can attest to the quality and overall wonderfulness of the Airborne Carpe
Diem I bought four years ago, FWIW. It's still my #1 bike, with somewhere
around 14k miles on it.

RichC

Yes, I know Airborne has a good reputation in general...just wondering
about these particular models.

Are titanium frames stronger than aluminum ones, typically? Lighter,
more flexible or less? Etc.

di said:

why would you want a titanium hybrid?

I'M SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO ******GLAD****** YOU ASKED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It seems like manufacturers also think there isn't a market out there
for folks who like their uprights (or upwrongs, as the 'bent crowd
likes to crow!) comfy as well as light and speedy.

I'm not into racing, but I do do a lot of bike riding for someone who's
not into racing! So I want to be comfortable...but that also means not
dealing with that extra five to ten pounds of a non-ti or carb-fi
bike....

I CAN'T be the only one who reasons this way...!

I went to so many bike shops around NYC, and they all gave me that WTF
stare...but it makes perfect sense to me! Why is the world so
black-and-white anyway?? I like comfort, but I also like performance!

When I lean more towards comfort (actually, when I have more cash) I'll
get a recumbent bike...for now, I'm still leaning towards out-and-out
performance -- but comfort's still a main, if not *the* main, factor!

"NYC XYZ" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Actually, they're $1,200 -- hot deal?

And how's this seat?

http://pedalpusherbikeshop.com/site/itemdetails.cfm?ID=438&Catalog=39

&sort=3rdcharacter

Quoted message said:

TIA!

NYC XYZ said:

Vis-a-vis the price, anyway -- $1,300 for 19-lb. bikes!!

http://www.airborne.net/eready/janette/Store/05LXTI-special.asp

http://www.airborne.net/eready/janette/store/05TB-special.asp

The first link is to a TITANIUM frame upright, while the second is
for the Thunderbolt with an aluminum frame. Oddly enough, the
aluminum bike weighs slightly less than the titanium one??
Components, I suppose -- so what do y'all think of 'em?

For example...caliper brakes?? 9-speed cassette??

Which one would you get, if these were the choices?

How do they compare to your current bike -- etc.?

You're paying attention to a 4-oz difference in weight, then
contemplating putting on a 4-lb saddle? (FWIW, my sister-in-law has that
saddle, and I guess she likes it, but it weighs more than her rear
wheel).

Low weight does not equal performance, except maybe psychologically. If
you want to shave grams, pee before you ride. That's about the
difference we're talking here. Performance is going to come from having
a good-fitting bike that you ride a whole bunch.

Like I say, fit is really the most important thing, and if you say you
want comfort and performance, you are not likely to get either from a
bike you can't test-ride first. Get yourself into a LBS and have them
find you something that is just right for you. They can swap out stems
and handlebars and seats (for a small upcharge usually, sometimes
they'll do even trades) and get it dialled in. Mail-order shops can't do
that for you.

As far as caliper brakes...why not? These aren't mountain bikes. They're
light enough and strong enough for 100% of the TDF field, and those guys
descend at 50 mph. The _only_ reason they don't use them on dirt bikes
is for tire clearance.

Sorry if you're getting dogpiled here, but you really should do some
test rides of both flat- and drop-bar bikes before you try to make your
decision based on Ti vs. Al or 18.2 vs. 18.6.

To answer your overall question, I'd go for the drop-bar bike, but
that's because I like drop bars, not because of its componentry or frame
material.

Good luck!

Hank Wirtz said:

You're paying attention to a 4-oz difference in weight, then
contemplating putting on a 4-lb saddle? (FWIW, my sister-in-law has that
saddle, and I guess she likes it, but it weighs more than her rear
wheel).

Holy Hell's Angels, that weighs more than my ass! Thanks for the
info...hmm...wonder if there are any ergonomic seats that are very
light?

Quoted message said:

Low weight does not equal performance, except maybe psychologically. If
you want to shave grams, pee before you ride. That's about the
difference we're talking here. Performance is going to come from having
a good-fitting bike that you ride a whole bunch.

LOL -- of course!

But the fit being equal, how do the specs read to you? I don't know
why they bother with Shimano this and Bontrager that...do even the
"pros" know what it means?? Reads like mattress advertising....

I'm a fast rider...I can keep up with my messenger friend who races on
the weekends (though we've never actually raced per se, given our very
different bikes). I say this so that you know I'm not stuck on
components like they were magic or something. In this particular case,
my natural inclination is to get the flat-bar bike, but it seems like
the componentry on the drop-bar may be substantially better.

Quoted message said:

Like I say, fit is really the most important thing, and if you say you
want comfort and performance, you are not likely to get either from a
bike you can't test-ride first. Get yourself into a LBS and have them
find you something that is just right for you. They can swap out stems
and handlebars and seats (for a small upcharge usually, sometimes
they'll do even trades) and get it dialled in. Mail-order shops can't do
that for you.

Only problem is that these particular bikes sound like real sweet deals
and aren't available except online from the manufacturer.

What's the big deal with the "fit," though? An 18" frame is an
18"...and the seat posts adjust, etc. I really wanted to know what the
components of the drop-bar are like compared to those of the flat-bar.

Quoted message said:

As far as caliper brakes...why not? These aren't mountain bikes. They're
light enough and strong enough for 100% of the TDF field, and those guys
descend at 50 mph. The _only_ reason they don't use them on dirt bikes
is for tire clearance.

I thought the V-brakes stop better? I went from cantilever brakes on a
chromoly to the old Trek 7500 (the old one, not the current one -- why
did they change the frame geometry? It seems like everyone's hybrid
line has got the angled top tube now) with aluminum and V-brakes...cool
stuff.

Quoted message said:

Sorry if you're getting dogpiled here, but you really should do some
test rides of both flat- and drop-bar bikes before you try to make your
decision based on Ti vs. Al or 18.2 vs. 18.6.

I'm sure I won't like drop-bars since I think the typical flat-bar
forces me to hunch over as it is! I always raise the headset (correct
term?) myself...upright means comfort!

Quoted message said:

To answer your overall question, I'd go for the drop-bar bike, but
that's because I like drop bars, not because of its componentry or frame
material.

I suppose I could always raise the drop-bars too?

When hunched over, my back really becomes the rear suspension!

Quoted message said:

Good luck!

Many thanks!

What's it mean that the Airborne Thunderbolt comes in 10-speed (is that
right, only ten speeds????) "double" or 10-speed "triple"????

"NYC XYZ" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Hank Wirtz said:

You're paying attention to a 4-oz difference in weight, then
contemplating putting on a 4-lb saddle? (FWIW, my sister-in-law has
that saddle, and I guess she likes it, but it weighs more than her
rear wheel).

Holy Hell's Angels, that weighs more than my ass! Thanks for the
info...hmm...wonder if there are any ergonomic seats that are very
light?

Quoted message said:

Low weight does not equal performance, except maybe psychologically.
If you want to shave grams, pee before you ride. That's about the
difference we're talking here. Performance is going to come from
having a good-fitting bike that you ride a whole bunch.

LOL -- of course!

But the fit being equal, how do the specs read to you? I don't know
why they bother with Shimano this and Bontrager that...do even the
"pros" know what it means?? Reads like mattress advertising....

I'm a fast rider...I can keep up with my messenger friend who races on
the weekends (though we've never actually raced per se, given our very
different bikes). I say this so that you know I'm not stuck on
components like they were magic or something. In this particular
case, my natural inclination is to get the flat-bar bike, but it seems
like the componentry on the drop-bar may be substantially better.

Better? Probably, but I wouldn't say substantially. Deore LX is probably
somewhere between Ultegra and 105, but it's not really something that
can be compared. One's a mountain group, the other's a road group.

Quoted message said:

Only problem is that these particular bikes sound like real sweet
deals and aren't available except online from the manufacturer.

A bike that looks nice on paper but sits in the hallway because it's not
as much fun to ride because the geometry's weird is not a sweet deal.

Quoted message said:

What's the big deal with the "fit," though? An 18" frame is an
18"...and the seat posts adjust, etc.

Sort of, but not really. I have a 21" Peugeot Orient Express and an 18"
GT Avalanche. Because of seat post length, slope of the top tube, and
rigid vs. suspension fork, set the bikes side-by side, and the cranks,
seat, and handlebars are all pretty much in the same places (but the GT
has a shorter wheelbase). Geometry is a big part of fit. Sliding your
saddle on its rails or installing a longer stem will give different ride
characteristics than a different sized top tube, even though the overall
reach is the same. Raise the saddle to compensate for a shorter seat
tube, and you're also moving it backwards. Slide the seat forward to
compensate, and you change the reach. Put on a different stem, and your
steering changes. It all ties in together. You can compare geometry, but
it's tough to say what's best for you until you ride it in real life.

There's a great anecdote on good bike fit in the R&E Cycle (in Seattle)
newsletter this month, which I'll quote:

From http://www.rodcycle.com/07_05_news.pdf

"A couple weeks ago, a man came in (we'll call him Jim) during a busy
spot in the day on a Thursday afternoon. I had just walked up from the
frame shop, and noticed that Smiley and Scott had their hands full, so I
stepped in to help him. He said he was looking for a new 'go-fast' bike.
I asked him what he was currently riding. He said "well, I've got a 25
year old Motobecane." I asked him if he'd been test riding other bikes,
and if he'd ridden anything that he'd liked. He said "as a matter of
fact, I've been test riding bikes for a year but I haven't ridden a bike
that I liked better than my Motobecane." He was about to give up
looking, but then a friend of his suggested that he look over our
website (thanks friend). He liked our focus on comfort as well as
performance, and thought our Rodriguez Arrow Race would be worth a try.
I fit him to an Arrow Race, and set him up for a test ride.

"As he left the shop for his test ride, a woman (we'll call her Jane)
happened in to air her tires. Coincidentally, she was also riding a
1970-80's vintage Motobecane. As I helped her air her tires, I told her
about the man that had just left for a test ride whose current bike is
just like hers. She said "this isn't my only bike, it's just the bike I
ride all the time. I have an expensive bike I bought 2 years ago, but I
don't like it." I asked her what kind of ike it was. She said that it
was a carbon fiber race bike that she thought would make her fast, but
instead only made her uncomfortable. I suggested that she schedule with
me for some fit work, but she said "I think I'll just keep riding the
Motobecane....it's comfortable." She went on her way.Well, 30 minutes or
so later, Jim returned from his test ride. The verdict...all smiles.
"Wrap it up!" He said, "this one's mine".

"After a year long search, Jim decided that the bike to send the
Motobecane out to pasture would be a stock Rodriguez Arrow Race.

"Our commitment to blending comfort and performance has grown
out of listening to you, and listening to our own common sense. When we
build a 16 pound race bike for a customer, we want that bike to be not
only light and fast, but the most comfortable bike they've ever
ridden....a bike they WANT to ride every day. If I were going to race in
the Daytona 500, I would want to drive a Nextel Cup car. Comfort and
convenience wouldn't matter as I would be hopped up on adrenaline. But
if I were going to buy a high performance sports car to drive down the
coast, I don't want to have to crawl in the window. I'm going to want a
radio, air conditioner, a heater, and doors that open. I might even want
somewhere to pack a small duffle bag, and a seat for my wife (I know
what you're thinking Chris, and she didn't make me put that in).
The point is, even though I would be driving a high performance sports
car, it wouldn't be the same car that Dale Earnhardt Jr. would drive in
the Daytona 500. The same is true in a bicycle. Jane was sold the "Lance
Armstrong, 16 pound, gonna go win the Tour De France" model. But she's
not Lance Armstrong, and she's not going to race in the Tour. She
commutes, and she rides long weekend fun rides with her friends. She
would be much more comfortable on a 16 pound bike designed for her style
of riding. It should be set up by someone who listens to what she's
going to do with the bike, and fits her to it accordingly."

Quoted message said:

I really wanted to know what
the components of the drop-bar are like compared to those of the
flat-bar.

Quoted message said:

As far as caliper brakes...why not? These aren't mountain bikes.
They're light enough and strong enough for 100% of the TDF field, and
those guys descend at 50 mph. The _only_ reason they don't use them
on dirt bikes is for tire clearance.

I thought the V-brakes stop better? I went from cantilever brakes on
a chromoly to the old Trek 7500 (the old one, not the current one --
why did they change the frame geometry? It seems like everyone's
hybrid line has got the angled top tube now) with aluminum and
V-brakes...cool stuff.

Any better stopping is likely due to larger pads. The V-brakes they use
on some FBR bikes usually have road-sized pads. I have Kool-Stop salmon
pads on my sidepulls and they stop as good as anything.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Sorry if you're getting dogpiled here, but you really should do some
test rides of both flat- and drop-bar bikes before you try to make
your decision based on Ti vs. Al or 18.2 vs. 18.6.

I'm sure I won't like drop-bars since I think the typical flat-bar
forces me to hunch over as it is! I always raise the headset (correct
term?) myself...upright means comfort!

I think "stem" is the word you're looking for, and that can be very
difficult with threadless stems, since the height is changed with
spacers, and the steerer's often already been cut too short to add more.

You can get a riser add-on, but I haven't tried one.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

To answer your overall question, I'd go for the drop-bar bike, but
that's because I like drop bars, not because of its componentry or
frame material.

I suppose I could always raise the drop-bars too?

Yup. And they give you more hand positions so hou can get some variety.
Reduces numbness for me.

Quoted message said:

When hunched over, my back really becomes the rear suspension!

Then absolutely, raise the bars!

Quoted message said:

What's it mean that the Airborne Thunderbolt comes in 10-speed (is
that right, only ten speeds????) "double" or 10-speed "triple"????

10 speeds in the back, with a double or triple crank, so a 20 or 30
speed system. The triple has a granny ring for the steeps.

You're asking questions, which is a good thing. Hopefully the answers
you're getting are leading you to more questions which will help you
make your decision.

Good luck!

-Hank

NYC XYZ said:

So I want to be comfortable...but that also means not
dealing with that extra five to ten pounds of a non-ti or carb-fi bike....

A quality steel frame weighs about a pound more than a ti or carbon frame.
Not insisting that you go with steel, but go with the frame that's got the
feel that you like, no matter what the material. Weight's a hell of a lot
more important when it comes to wheels.

When you see a carbon or ti bike built up with an advertised spec of
something crazy like 15 pounds, it's due to all the components being the
lightest of of breed, not just the frame.

🙂

"NYC XYZ" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Vis-a-vis the price, anyway -- $1,300 for 19-lb. bikes!!

http://www.airborne.net/eready/janette/Store/05LXTI-special.asp

http://www.airborne.net/eready/janette/store/05TB-special.asp

The first link is to a TITANIUM frame upright, while the second is for
the Thunderbolt with an aluminum frame. Oddly enough, the aluminum
bike weighs slightly less than the titanium one?? Components, I
suppose -- so what do y'all think of 'em?

For example...caliper brakes?? 9-speed cassette??

Which one would you get, if these were the choices?

How do they compare to your current bike -- etc.?

Airborne is fine, if you don't mind buying a Chinese bicycle. I don't
support communist dictatorships. I own three Taiwanese bikes, and an
American bike. The American bike is head and shoulders above the Taiwanese
quality wise, but it was far more expensive, too. I wouldn't buy the
Airborne, but that's purely on an ethical level. I'm sure the quality is
fine.

"NYC XYZ" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

di said:

why would you want a titanium hybrid?

I'M SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO ******GLAD****** YOU ASKED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It seems like manufacturers also think there isn't a market out there
for folks who like their uprights (or upwrongs, as the 'bent crowd
likes to crow!) comfy as well as light and speedy.

I'm not into racing, but I do do a lot of bike riding for someone who's
not into racing! So I want to be comfortable...but that also means not
dealing with that extra five to ten pounds of a non-ti or carb-fi
bike....

Aluminum can be SCARY light, and steel isn't 5-10 pounds heavier. Try 1-2
pounds. I'm sure you couldn't stand to lose 5 pounds off your body, right?
If you want to be comfortable, frame material is the least of your concern.
Tire size and frame geometry have far more to do with it. That being said,
don't you wonder why so many touring bikes are STEEL? :-)

Gooserider said:

"NYC XYZ" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Vis-a-vis the price, anyway -- $1,300 for 19-lb. bikes!!

http://www.airborne.net/eready/janette/Store/05LXTI-special.asp

http://www.airborne.net/eready/janette/store/05TB-special.asp

The first link is to a TITANIUM frame upright, while the second is for
the Thunderbolt with an aluminum frame. Oddly enough, the aluminum
bike weighs slightly less than the titanium one?? Components, I
suppose -- so what do y'all think of 'em?

For example...caliper brakes?? 9-speed cassette??

Which one would you get, if these were the choices?

How do they compare to your current bike -- etc.?

Airborne is fine, if you don't mind buying a Chinese bicycle. I don't
support communist dictatorships. I own three Taiwanese bikes, and an
American bike. The American bike is head and shoulders above the Taiwanese
quality wise, but it was far more expensive, too. I wouldn't buy the
Airborne, but that's purely on an ethical level. I'm sure the quality is
fine.

I don't mind buying Chinese bikes, I have three of them from this
manufacturer. Whether a dictatorship is communist or capitalist is all
the same to me.
My titanium mountain bike has taken a pounding and is still going strong.

"Zoom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Gooserider said:

"NYC XYZ" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Vis-a-vis the price, anyway -- $1,300 for 19-lb. bikes!!

http://www.airborne.net/eready/janette/Store/05LXTI-special.asp

http://www.airborne.net/eready/janette/store/05TB-special.asp

The first link is to a TITANIUM frame upright, while the second is for
the Thunderbolt with an aluminum frame. Oddly enough, the aluminum
bike weighs slightly less than the titanium one?? Components, I
suppose -- so what do y'all think of 'em?

For example...caliper brakes?? 9-speed cassette??

Which one would you get, if these were the choices?

How do they compare to your current bike -- etc.?

Airborne is fine, if you don't mind buying a Chinese bicycle. I don't
support communist dictatorships. I own three Taiwanese bikes, and an
American bike. The American bike is head and shoulders above the
Taiwanese quality wise, but it was far more expensive, too. I wouldn't
buy the Airborne, but that's purely on an ethical level. I'm sure the
quality is fine.

I don't mind buying Chinese bikes, I have three of them from this
manufacturer. Whether a dictatorship is communist or capitalist is all the
same to me.
My titanium mountain bike has taken a pounding and is still going strong.

The problem with buying Chinese goods is the very real possibility that
doing so supports our enemy.War with China over Taiwan is not out of the
question. The Chinese have a horrible human rights record, you know. People
there are routinely put in re-education camps, undergo forced sterilization,
are placed in forced labor camps, and face other such horrible acts. Every
dollar you spend on Chinese goods goes to strengthen them both economically
and militarily. I would no more buy Chinese goods than I would buy conflict
diamonds.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Get yourself into a LBS and have them

find you something that is just right for you. They can swap out stems
and handlebars and seats (for a small upcharge usually, sometimes
they'll do even trades) and get it dialled in. Mail-order shops can't
do
that for you. <<

There are no small charges at an lbs. They will want $30 for a stem
you can get for<$10 online. LBS have crappy return policies. Order
saddles online then you can return them . Or get a Brooks B17 and be in
bliss. I wouldnt hesitate to buy a bike online.

Both of those bikes are decent deals, but it is difficult to advise you
intelligently.

You want speed *and* comfort (ie an upright position with a big cushy
saddle). These are somewhat exclusive traits.

Speed is primarily a function of how much power you can produce, how
much you weigh (important only on climbs), and what your air resistance
is (important only on a fairly flat road or descent).

In all of these, your body and position is much more important than the
bike you have. Saving 8 lbs (on the bike or the rider) will only effect
your climbing speed significantly, and that will only improve by a few
% at the very most.

If you want to go fast on the flat, you need to be in an aerodynamic
position with your back nearly flat. You call this "uncomfortable" (you
like to sit upright), but the most important property of a "fast" bike
is that it allows this position. If this is difficult for you, then you
will have to work towards it slowly, with stretching and training.
Basically, you need to *make* it comfortable if you really want to go
fast.

Same for the saddle. The skinny, hard saddles are actually comfortable
once you get used to them... much better than the fat cushy ones that
come on cheap bikes. You need to be wearing decent shorts, of course.

Personal experience... I recently upgraded my "road" bike from a $300
MTB with a long low stem, barends, rigid fork, and 1.25" slicks, to a
$3,000 Ti racing bike with Dura Ace. The new bike is about 10 lbs
lighter, and I could get slightly more aero... I also think the tires
have a little less rolling resistance. All of this resulted in a speed
increase on my regular time-trials of 1-2%... and this is more than I
expected.

So, the bike alone isn't really that important. But if you would like
to get a new one, and you are truly interested in going fast, then get
a road bike with drop bars (they afford more position options that also
have access to the brakes), adjust the position so it is comfortable
*now*, and as you become more flexible, lower the bars and extend the
reach. This is pretty economical and easy to do by changing the stem...
as long as you get the right size frame to start with.

BTW, Ti is great but aluminum and steel are also fine. Best not to
spend too much money at this point, and make sure you get a good fit.

Anyway, good luck,

-Ron

since you want a Ti bike, I would suggest that you go here:
http://www.habcycles.com/
Habanero frames are good quality, just like airborne. However, it is
smaller volume, and the owner, Mark, will spend more time talking to
you and answering all the questions that you have very patiently. Mark
is a regular poster here and a nice guy, but don't talk politics with
him.

Andres

Hank Wirtz said:

Better? Probably, but I wouldn't say substantially. Deore LX is probably
somewhere between Ultegra and 105, but it's not really something that
can be compared. One's a mountain group, the other's a road group.

OIC!

THX!

Quoted message said:

A bike that looks nice on paper but sits in the hallway because it's not
as much fun to ride because the geometry's weird is not a sweet deal.

See, this is what I don't understand...ALL bikes are inherently
uncomfortable to me -- it's just a terrible position; I'm sure I've got
a lot of nerve damage in the crotch already! =( And my back is ALWAYS
worse off after extended riding. I take it like a running injury --
can't be eliminated, even if minimized.

Of course I want it as comffy as possible...but I guess I just don't
know what it can really mean in the absence of the possibility of total
comfort. Hell, even recumbent bikes can exacerbate existing back
problems!

The only bike I don't ride anymore is my old chromoly...I call it "the
pig" -- tough bike, but there's just no going back to that heavy stuff
anymore for me!

Quoted message said:

Sort of, but not really. I have a 21" Peugeot Orient Express and an 18"
GT Avalanche. Because of seat post length, slope of the top tube, and
rigid vs. suspension fork, set the bikes side-by side, and the cranks,
seat, and handlebars are all pretty much in the same places (but the GT
has a shorter wheelbase). Geometry is a big part of fit. Sliding your
saddle on its rails or installing a longer stem will give different ride
characteristics than a different sized top tube, even though the overall
reach is the same. Raise the saddle to compensate for a shorter seat
tube, and you're also moving it backwards. Slide the seat forward to
compensate, and you change the reach. Put on a different stem, and your
steering changes. It all ties in together. You can compare geometry, but
it's tough to say what's best for you until you ride it in real life.

There's ideal, and then there's real -- unless I get a bike customized
to my proportions, I'm afraid anything off the rack/shelf will be
less-than-ideal.

Quoted message said:

There's a great anecdote on good bike fit in the R&E Cycle (in Seattle)
newsletter this month, which I'll quote:

From http://www.rodcycle.com/07_05_news.pdf

"A couple weeks ago, a man came in (we'll call him Jim) during a busy
spot in the day on a Thursday afternoon. I had just walked up from the
frame shop, and noticed that Smiley and Scott had their hands full, so I
stepped in to help him. He said he was looking for a new 'go-fast' bike.
I asked him what he was currently riding. He said "well, I've got a 25
year old Motobecane." I asked him if he'd been test riding other bikes,
and if he'd ridden anything that he'd liked. He said "as a matter of
fact, I've been test riding bikes for a year but I haven't ridden a bike
that I liked better than my Motobecane." He was about to give up
looking, but then a friend of his suggested that he look over our
website (thanks friend). He liked our focus on comfort as well as
performance, and thought our Rodriguez Arrow Race would be worth a try.
I fit him to an Arrow Race, and set him up for a test ride.

"As he left the shop for his test ride, a woman (we'll call her Jane)
happened in to air her tires. Coincidentally, she was also riding a
1970-80's vintage Motobecane. As I helped her air her tires, I told her
about the man that had just left for a test ride whose current bike is
just like hers. She said "this isn't my only bike, it's just the bike I
ride all the time. I have an expensive bike I bought 2 years ago, but I
don't like it." I asked her what kind of ike it was. She said that it
was a carbon fiber race bike that she thought would make her fast, but
instead only made her uncomfortable. I suggested that she schedule with
me for some fit work, but she said "I think I'll just keep riding the
Motobecane....it's comfortable." She went on her way.Well, 30 minutes or
so later, Jim returned from his test ride. The verdict...all smiles.
"Wrap it up!" He said, "this one's mine".

"After a year long search, Jim decided that the bike to send the
Motobecane out to pasture would be a stock Rodriguez Arrow Race.

"Our commitment to blending comfort and performance has grown
out of listening to you, and listening to our own common sense. When we
build a 16 pound race bike for a customer, we want that bike to be not
only light and fast, but the most comfortable bike they've ever
ridden....a bike they WANT to ride every day. If I were going to race in
the Daytona 500, I would want to drive a Nextel Cup car. Comfort and
convenience wouldn't matter as I would be hopped up on adrenaline. But
if I were going to buy a high performance sports car to drive down the
coast, I don't want to have to crawl in the window. I'm going to want a
radio, air conditioner, a heater, and doors that open. I might even want
somewhere to pack a small duffle bag, and a seat for my wife (I know
what you're thinking Chris, and she didn't make me put that in).
The point is, even though I would be driving a high performance sports
car, it wouldn't be the same car that Dale Earnhardt Jr. would drive in
the Daytona 500. The same is true in a bicycle. Jane was sold the "Lance
Armstrong, 16 pound, gonna go win the Tour De France" model. But she's
not Lance Armstrong, and she's not going to race in the Tour. She
commutes, and she rides long weekend fun rides with her friends. She
would be much more comfortable on a 16 pound bike designed for her style
of riding. It should be set up by someone who listens to what she's
going to do with the bike, and fits her to it accordingly."

I totally agree. Thing is, $1,200 for this bike is quite a deal! I'm
sure I'll fit...I've always bought pre-built bikes, and they've never
felt totally comfortable, whatever that means when it comes to
bicycling.

Quoted message said:

Any better stopping is likely due to larger pads. The V-brakes they use
on some FBR bikes usually have road-sized pads. I have Kool-Stop salmon
pads on my sidepulls and they stop as good as anything.

Hmmm...I thought it had to do with the mechanics of the pull of the
cable...a V-brake seems more powerful, from a mechanical POV, than a
cantilever...I can't quite imagine in my mind's eye the same difference
between a V-brake and caliper brakes operationally, but I have heard
that V-brakes are second only to disc brakes.

Quoted message said:

I think "stem" is the word you're looking for, and that can be very
difficult with threadless stems, since the height is changed with
spacers, and the steerer's often already been cut too short to add more.

You can get a riser add-on, but I haven't tried one.

Yes, "stem" is what I'd meant! Thanks again for all the insight.

Quoted message said:

Yup. And they give you more hand positions so hou can get some variety.
Reduces numbness for me.

GOODNESS, THAT'S TRUE! Duh -- I'd just never considered that there
were more hand positions available with a drop-bar...yes, well, on that
basis alone, I'd go with the Thunderbolt! Time to think of my wrists
as well....

Quoted message said:

Then absolutely, raise the bars!

It'll be a funny-looking bike, then. =)

Quoted message said:

10 speeds in the back, with a double or triple crank, so a 20 or 30
speed system. The triple has a granny ring for the steeps.

Eh? Is that what that "third gear" is called, a granny ring? For
steep climbs, right?

Cool -- it's the triple for me, then! =) I'm fast enough, but a
granny ring will make me faster!

Why would anyone do without it? Can't add much weight....

Quoted message said:

You're asking questions, which is a good thing. Hopefully the answers
you're getting are leading you to more questions which will help you
make your decision.

They certainly have! You've clarified much for me in this one post
alone. =)

Quoted message said:

Good luck!

-Hank

Thanks again; much obliged!