How do I negotiate this junction?

On Thu, 13 Jul 2006 00:10:00 +0100, "Adam Lea" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Now I am cycling regularly to work (Horsham to Holmbury Hill) I am getting
fed up of having to cross the A264 Horsham bypass and having to dismount and
carry my bike under the railway at Warnham station. I would like to take the
direct route along the A264, however there is a problem. The A264 is a dual
carriageway with a 70 mph speed limit and one mile to the west ends at a
roundabout where the A24 dual carriageway heads south to Worthing and the
A24 single carriageway heads north. On the approach to the roundabout
traffic heading north is required to use lane 2 which is the direction I
wish to take. How do I safely cross into lane 2 prior to the roundabout when
traffic is moving at 50-70mph.

You don't, I see absolutely no reason to, and knowing the junction I
don't think the people coming out of the A24 won't see you (any more
likely than if you were in lane 2, and that tends to be the least
visible direction to approach from, so also the slowest.

Jim.

"Adam Lea" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Now I am cycling regularly to work (Horsham to Holmbury Hill) I am getting
fed up of having to cross the A264 Horsham bypass and having to dismount
and carry my bike under the railway at Warnham station. I would like to
take the direct route along the A264, however there is a problem. The A264
is a dual carriageway with a 70 mph speed limit and one mile to the west
ends at a roundabout where the A24 dual carriageway heads south to
Worthing and the A24 single carriageway heads north. On the approach to
the roundabout traffic heading north is required to use lane 2 which is
the direction I wish to take. How do I safely cross into lane 2 prior to
the roundabout when traffic is moving at 50-70mph. Traffic tends to move
quickly even quite close to the roundabout as the sightlines are
sufficiently good that it can be seen if something is coming around the
roundabout so often traffic will approach and negotiate the roundabout
without slowing down too much.

Mmm, not nice. Nearest I ever had was one on the Parkway nr ICI Wilton,
where fortunately everybody else was going the same direction as me.

Only thing I can suggest is being big. Plan the move well in advance, stick
arm well out, start edging out, keep looking behind, keep moving quickly.
Eventually somebody will notice and slow down, and then you move across.

Take lots of care - be prepared to swing back to the left if somebody looks
like they're about to hit you (hence the looking behind). Shouldn't happen,
but the consequences mean you should be ready for it to do so.

And be prepared to have to stop and wait for a gap :-( HC says you are
allowed to do your manoevre from the left hand side of the road - but if so,
you really need to be careful.

Does traffic go North-South down the A24? In which case, the LH lane should
stop occasionally, and if this happens, take advantage of it to move across
if you didn't manage it earlier.

With practice, you should be able to anticipate what the traffic is going to
do a bit better, which should make life easier. But I don't envy you on this
junction.

cheers,
clive

"Jim Ley" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Thu, 13 Jul 2006 00:10:00 +0100, "Adam Lea" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Now I am cycling regularly to work (Horsham to Holmbury Hill) I am getting
fed up of having to cross the A264 Horsham bypass and having to dismount
and
carry my bike under the railway at Warnham station. I would like to take
the
direct route along the A264, however there is a problem. The A264 is a
dual
carriageway with a 70 mph speed limit and one mile to the west ends at a
roundabout where the A24 dual carriageway heads south to Worthing and the
A24 single carriageway heads north. On the approach to the roundabout
traffic heading north is required to use lane 2 which is the direction I
wish to take. How do I safely cross into lane 2 prior to the roundabout
when
traffic is moving at 50-70mph.

You don't, I see absolutely no reason to, and knowing the junction I
don't think the people coming out of the A24 won't see you (any more
likely than if you were in lane 2, and that tends to be the least
visible direction to approach from, so also the slowest.

Eh? Surely the problem is how to get across the stream of people going
A264-A24 southbound? Once you're across that lot, L1/L2 is pretty immaterial
wrt the A24 traffic.

confused clive

Adam Lea said:

Now I am cycling regularly to work (Horsham to Holmbury Hill) I am getting
fed up of having to cross the A264 Horsham bypass and having to dismount and
carry my bike under the railway at Warnham station. I would like to take the
direct route along the A264, however there is a problem. The A264 is a dual
carriageway with a 70 mph speed limit and one mile to the west ends at a
roundabout where the A24 dual carriageway heads south to Worthing and the
A24 single carriageway heads north. On the approach to the roundabout
traffic heading north is required to use lane 2 which is the direction I
wish to take. How do I safely cross into lane 2 prior to the roundabout when
traffic is moving at 50-70mph. Traffic tends to move quickly even quite
close to the roundabout as the sightlines are sufficiently good that it can
be seen if something is coming around the roundabout so often traffic will
approach and negotiate the roundabout without slowing down too much.

Here is an arial view of the roundabout:

http://www.multimap.com/map/photo.cgi?client=public&X=517000&Y=133500&width=500&height=300&gride=517000&gridn=133500&srec=0&coordsys=gb&db=freegaz&pc=&zm=0&scale=5000&down.x=186&down.y=4

I had a look at the negotiation section in cyclecraft and it says this
technique can be used for traffic speeds up to around 40mph - somewhat
slower than the traffic here.

I'm a bit new to this level of discussion... and I can't make out, is
the roundabout one of those spiral jobs? That is, can a cyclist ignore
the lane directions and just trundle around the edge of the roundabout,
or does that shoot you off in the wrong direction?

I presume that traffic is heavy, no gaps... I think the "negotiation"
technique - signal your intention to change lane and then wait for a
driver to slow down and let you execute your manoeuvre - will also be
applicable, but you'd have to use it quite aggressively, to the point
where a driver who doesn't want to give you a break will have some
trouble not pushing you over instead. It'll slow him down anyway (you
hope). And obviously you'll be making lots of other people slow down,
which upsets them - that's okay but it can be dangerous. Be careful
what hand signals you make ;-)

Or you could do your negotiation /on/ the roundabout if it's a spiral
one - tricky, of course, but traffic /will/ be slower than on the
approach road.

I spend a lot of time riding /on/ the white line between lanes waiting
for my chance... at least it seems long. And here in central Scotland,
most motorists are pretty good with cyclists, except when their
calculation obviously includes my travelling at 30mph like everyone
else. I'd be as pleased as they if I could! And usually we err
towards caution.

Still, I find the slightly convex rear-view mirror essential for this
sort of thing - which, come to think, may be much of the problem with
one of the hard manoeuvres on my own commute, the detour to the
supermarket - a right turn that puts you in the right hand of three
lanes with the supermarket off to the left, around fifty yards on, cars
accelerating out of the junction - and my mirror is on the wrong, that
is, the right side. (Left is my short-sighted eye, too.) So
signalling, steering, and looking to see if I can get across or not is
a heck of a challenge, at least to /my/ finite physical coordination.
So frankly I usually cheat that one - take a pedestrian crossing
instead; I still play fair to the extent of actually stopping traffic
on the crossing.

Adam Lea wrote on 13/07/2006 00:10 +0100:

Quoted message said:

Now I am cycling regularly to work (Horsham to Holmbury Hill) I am
getting fed up of having to cross the A264 Horsham bypass and having
to dismount and carry my bike under the railway at Warnham station. I
would like to take the direct route along the A264, however there is
a problem. The A264 is a dual carriageway with a 70 mph speed limit
and one mile to the west ends at a roundabout where the A24 dual
carriageway heads south to Worthing and the A24 single carriageway
heads north. On the approach to the roundabout traffic heading north
is required to use lane 2 which is the direction I wish to take. How
do I safely cross into lane 2 prior to the roundabout when traffic is
moving at 50-70mph. Traffic tends to move quickly even quite close to
the roundabout as the sightlines are sufficiently good that it can be
seen if something is coming around the roundabout so often traffic
will approach and negotiate the roundabout without slowing down too
much.

I have commuted round a similar roundabout that is a motorway junction.
I ignored the fact I should be in lane 2 and drift over to take
control of the centre right of lane 1 (no signals needed - drifting is
better than moving as it forces the cars coming up behind further and
further right until one eventually decides to slow down behind you).
Then concentrate on the traffic on the roundabout, going round in the
middle of the outer lane. If you can eyeball a driver coming round as
you join the roundabout and keep them behind you as you cross the exit
roads it helps to have them effectively riding shotgun behind you. It
needs a fair bit of confidence at cycling in one direction with purpose
while looking in another direction to eyeball the threats - mainly cars
wanting to exit the roundabout through you.

Good luck

--
Tony

"Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
his intelligence; he is just using his memory."
- Leonardo da Vinci

Kind of agree with Tony. What ever you do do it with confidence.

If it's rush hour I would have thought that the traffic approaching the
roundabount (about 5 or 6 cars) is quite slow so getting into the
correct lane should be fine. Eyeballing the drivers on the roundabout
is essential but once on it all should be ok but do take up a lane and
not skirt the lane divider as a driver may be tempted to cut across you
to go dawn the A24.

Another option might be just go down the A24 and get off the bike and
cross to the other side and head back.

Whatever you do be safe

Lee

Quoted message said:

How do I safely cross into lane 2 prior to the roundabout when
traffic is moving at 50-70mph. Traffic tends to move quickly even
quite close to the roundabout as the sightlines are sufficiently good
that it can be seen if something is coming around the roundabout so
often traffic will approach and negotiate the roundabout without
slowing down too much.

Here is an arial view of the roundabout:

http://www.multimap.com/map/photo.cgi?client=public&X=517000&Y=133500&w
idt

Ride really, really fast and be very confident about looking behind whilst
signalling. If taking lane 2 is impossible before the roundabout I'd
consider taking it on the roundabout itself.

I wouldn't even attempt it if I was not able to properly look behind me
whilst cycling at speed and signalling at the same time.

Good luck with it - if the rest of the commute doesn't wake you up in the
morning, that should!

in message <[email hidden]>, Adam Lea

(') said:

Now I am cycling regularly to work (Horsham to Holmbury Hill) I am
getting fed up of having to cross the A264 Horsham bypass and having to
dismount and carry my bike under the railway at Warnham station. I
would like to take the direct route along the A264, however there is a
problem. The A264 is a dual carriageway with a 70 mph speed limit and
one mile to the west ends at a roundabout where the A24 dual
carriageway heads south to Worthing and the A24 single carriageway
heads north. On the approach to the roundabout traffic heading north is
required to use lane 2 which is the direction I wish to take. How do I
safely cross into lane 2 prior to the roundabout when traffic is moving
at 50-70mph. Traffic tends to move quickly even quite close to the
roundabout as the sightlines are sufficiently good that it can be seen
if something is coming around the roundabout so often traffic will
approach and negotiate the roundabout without slowing down too much.

I agree with both Tony and Mark.

Marks right that it's a lot easier with speed on - a similar roundabout
that I had to negotiate on a commute was /much/ easier to negotiate in
the downhill - the closer you can be to traffic speed the better. Don't
be afraid to approach the roundabout fast - you can almost always
modulate your speed to fit into slots in the traffic flow, and if in the
end you do have to brake to a halt you're no worse off than if than if
you were approaching slowly anyway. This has a corollary - ride a bike
which you can comfortably and safely ride fast. I've always felt that a
race bike made the best commuter.

Then, confidence. Think big. Be prepared to bully and intimidate
motorists out of your way. Look them in the eyes and stake claim to the
bit of tarmac you want: 'I'm going there, /you/ brake!' This strategy
sounds risky, but all I can say is it worked for me.

Then, conditions. You say you have an alternative route. When visibility
is very poor, or when (e.g. first rain after a dry period) the road
surface is likely to be slippery, let discretion be the better part of
valour. Falling on a fast roundabout would not be amusing.

Finally, be visible. Bright clothes. We all know - it's been repeated so
many times - that motorists may not register the presence of a cyclist,
and there's nothing you can do about that except eye contact. However,
make it as easy as possible for those who /are/ paying attention to see
you.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; Want to know what SCO stands for?
;; http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20030605

in message <[email hidden]>,

(') said:

I'm a bit new to this level of discussion... and I can't make out, is
the roundabout one of those spiral jobs?  That is, can a cyclist ignore
the lane directions and just trundle around the edge of the roundabout,

Don't /ever/ do that. That's suicide, and if you really want to commit
suicide there are less painful ways.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
Just as defying the law of gravity through building aircraft requires
careful design and a lot of effort, so too does defying laws of
economics. It seems to be a deeply ingrained aspect of humanity to
forever strive to improve things, so unquestioning acceptance of a
free market system seems to me to be unnatural. ;; Charles Bryant

Adam Lea said the following on 13/07/2006 00:10:

Quoted message said:

Now I am cycling regularly to work (Horsham to Holmbury Hill) I am getting
fed up of having to cross the A264 Horsham bypass and having to dismount and
carry my bike under the railway at Warnham station. I would like to take the
direct route along the A264, however there is a problem. The A264 is a dual
carriageway with a 70 mph speed limit and one mile to the west ends at a
roundabout where the A24 dual carriageway heads south to Worthing and the
A24 single carriageway heads north. On the approach to the roundabout
traffic heading north is required to use lane 2 which is the direction I
wish to take. How do I safely cross into lane 2 prior to the roundabout when
traffic is moving at 50-70mph. Traffic tends to move quickly even quite
close to the roundabout as the sightlines are sufficiently good that it can
be seen if something is coming around the roundabout so often traffic will
approach and negotiate the roundabout without slowing down too much.

Quite frankly, I don't think you can move safely into lane 2 if traffic
is moving at that sort of speed. Think o ftrying to change lanes on a
motorway - on a bike! I think I would let discretion take the better
part of valour. I don't suppose for one minute there's any pedestrian
crossings anywhere near?

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

Adam Lea said:

Now I am cycling regularly to work (Horsham to Holmbury Hill) I am getting
fed up of having to cross the A264 Horsham bypass and having to dismount and
carry my bike under the railway at Warnham station. I would like to take the
direct route along the A264, however there is a problem. The A264 is a dual
carriageway with a 70 mph speed limit and one mile to the west ends at a
roundabout where the A24 dual carriageway heads south to Worthing and the
A24 single carriageway heads north. On the approach to the roundabout
traffic heading north is required to use lane 2 which is the direction I
wish to take.

Is there anything physically preventing lane one traffic going north?
Does any traffic go south from lane 2?

If the answer to both questions is no, I would control lane 1 from
just before the roundabout, and be to the right of it as I pass the
southward exit. If the answer to either is yes, you'll have to get
into and control lane 2, which will be harder. Don't do it too far in
advance. Is there a lane 3?

I only have to do this sort of thing at 40. The most important factor
is being clear which lane you're in, and making people use another one
if they want to pass you.

HTH

Colin McKenzie

--
On average in Britain, you're more likely to get a head injury walking
a mile than cycling it.
So why aren't we all exhorted to wear walking helmets?

"Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Adam Lea
([email hidden]'😉 wrote:

Then, confidence. Think big. Be prepared to bully and intimidate
motorists out of your way. Look them in the eyes and stake claim to the
bit of tarmac you want: 'I'm going there, /you/ brake!' This strategy
sounds risky, but all I can say is it worked for me.

They are going 50- 70 bullying them isn't the smartest move. Each strategy
has its place but I'm not convinced this is the right place.

Quoted message said:

Then, conditions. You say you have an alternative route. When visibility
is very poor, or when (e.g. first rain after a dry period) the road
surface is likely to be slippery, let discretion be the better part of
valour. Falling on a fast roundabout would not be amusing.

I'd go with this one

If it was too risky to use lane 2 at the time, I would ignore the arrows,
get in the middle of lane 1 and signal right.

~PB

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>,

(') said:

I'm a bit new to this level of discussion... and I can't make out, is
the roundabout one of those spiral jobs? That is, can a cyclist ignore
the lane directions and just trundle around the edge of the roundabout,

Don't /ever/ do that. That's suicide, and if you really want to commit
suicide there are less painful ways.

I recognise it's asking for trouble if you don't know what's behind you
(am I wrong about mirrors? I wouldn't be without one), although if you
hold a right-turn signal then heavy metal is less likely to drive over
you. But this is a junction where proper "vehicular cycling"
apparently requires getting up to 50 mph.

At another of my own daily roundabouts, I tend effectively to give way
to traffic entering the junction from one road - to give way by slowing
down and steering to the outside - at a point where slope and steering
have already cut me back to meeting them at about 10mph max. That
one's just badly laid out, I think. But I'm also leery of turning
sharply at speed, especially right, ever since a stupid spill when the
brake cable got caught on the silly thing with the front reflector on.
So that's gone - the reflector is fixed on the mudguard instead.

If you turn left and skid and go down, you're less likely to have to
worry very quickly about vehicles behind, than if you do it going right.

Quoted message said:

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>,

(') said:

I'm a bit new to this level of discussion... and I can't make out,
is the roundabout one of those spiral jobs? That is, can a cyclist
ignore the lane directions and just trundle around the edge of the
roundabout,

Don't /ever/ do that. That's suicide, and if you really want to
commit suicide there are less painful ways.

Using lane 1 is often not so bad if you are taking the second exit and
stay in the middle of the lane (or perhaps towards the right-hand side of
it). It depends on the exact layout and the traffic at the time.

But I agree it's suicidal if you're so far to the left that you're
allowing vehicles turning left to cut you up.

Quoted message said:

I recognise it's asking for trouble if you don't know what's behind
you (am I wrong about mirrors? I wouldn't be without one), although
if you hold a right-turn signal then heavy metal is less likely to
drive over you. But this is a junction where proper "vehicular
cycling" apparently requires getting up to 50 mph.

A mirror isn't essential on a normal (upright) bike when you have the
ability to look behind easily. This doesn't apply to people with certain
neck or back problems, for example. No need for continuous rear vision
when you make perfectly adequate predictions for what the situation will
be in between glances.

~PB

Pete Biggs said:

A mirror isn't essential on a normal (upright) bike when you have the
ability to look behind easily.

Agreed, but they can be at least handy. Most useful thing is saving you
the bother of having to look behind at all when a glance reveals
something there.

An important point of mirrors is remembering that having nothing in the
mirror does /not/ necessarily mean there's nothing there, so follow up a
clear mirror with a look over the shoulder if you can. OTOH, if the
mirror says there *is* something there, you can trust that and keep more
attention on what's ahead.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Peter Clinch said:

Pete Biggs said:

A mirror isn't essential on a normal (upright) bike when you have the
ability to look behind easily.

Quoted message said:

An important point of mirrors is remembering that having nothing in the
mirror does /not/ necessarily mean there's nothing there, so follow up a
clear mirror with a look over the shoulder if you can.

Also remember <granny sucking eggs bit, maybe> that motor vehicles can
appear very suddenly, even when they should be slowing at roundabouts,
so a clear mirror doesn't mean a clear road except for the next few
seconds sometimes. This is stated with the authority of scary personal
experience!

--
Brian G

Pete Biggs said:

Quoted message said:

Am I wrong about mirrors? I wouldn't be without one.

A mirror isn't essential on a normal (upright) bike when you have the
ability to look behind easily. This doesn't apply to people with certain
neck or back problems, for example. No need for continuous rear vision
when you make perfectly adequate predictions for what the situation will
be in between glances.

You see, I don't know if my experience is typical - whose is? - but I
find actually looking back to be quite "expensive" in attention taken
off the road in front, and also in balance and steering. Perhaps I'm
relying on sight to an unusual degree in keeping my balance and my
heading. At any rate, I'm not comfortable looking back and pedalling
hard at top speed, simultaneously - so instead I'll slow down or coast.

Conversely, I use my mirror to choose whether to hog the breadth of the
road - avoiding potholes on the left and taking the fastest and/or
straightest line ahead - or whether other vehicles are catching me up
and I ought to adopt the secondary position and ease off on effort to
faciliate overtaking, or perhaps even take what amounts, in effect, to
evasive action - there's at least one roundabout, slope, and chicane,
also on my commute route, that I'd rather go through at foot speed on
the pedestrian path, and do (when no one else is using it), than on the
roadway with the average Scottish motorist right behind me. We are
considerate and cycle-friendly drivers, as I've said, but we do get
impatient quickly. Strictly, I suppose, if I feel that I can't safely
execute a manoeuvre alongside other traffic then I should stop, but I'm
impatient too - and usually late for something, as well.

So one way or another, my mirror saves me time and trouble. Gears are
useful; so is my mirror.

Now for lane changes and junctions, it's different -

1. Check mirror. If not clear, wait.
2. Look back. If not clear, back to 1.
3. Execute manoeuvre.

Negotiation is somewhere in there, too. "Clear" includes "I will be
moving into the path of a vehicle whose driver has recognised my
intention and is not, for instance, accelerating towards my future
position" - of course. This requires watching the other vehicle for
long enough to estimate its speed - and that's easier with a good
mirror too, when you can still see in front of you as well.

And of course a junction where approaching vehicles /are/ or /may/ be
accelerating, such as from the next junction close by, is particularly
difficult to judge. There's a tee next to another roundabout...

Peter Clinch wrote on 13/07/2006 13:05 +0100:

Quoted message said:

An important point of mirrors is remembering that having nothing in the
mirror does /not/ necessarily mean there's nothing there, so follow up a
clear mirror with a look over the shoulder if you can. OTOH, if the
mirror says there *is* something there, you can trust that and keep more
attention on what's ahead.

I disagree. I find motorists behave very differently if it is clear you
are looking over your shoulder and know they are there - it seems a bit
like a naughty child who behaves themselves when they know they are
being watched. A mirror doesn't achieve that.

--
Tony

"Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
his intelligence; he is just using his memory."
- Leonardo da Vinci