How big is a few pounds?

Chris Hansen said:

How much difference does 3 or 4 pounds of non-rotating
weight make? Say you have similar bikes with the same
wheels and gearing but one is maybe 3 pounds heavier, is
that a huge difference over a few hours?

Quoted message said:

I'm looking for a new bike to use for general purpose
onroad/off road/commuting/MS 150 and possibly a century
someday. At the top of the list are the Karate Monkey and
a few steel cyclocross bikes. The Karate Monkey weighs in
at about 27 pounds and the cross bikes around 24 or 25.
How high on the priority list is 2-3 pounds of weight?

On the flats, it will be hardly noticeable. On steep hills
it will be noticeable but not a huge difference. The
lighter YOU are, the more difference the added bike weight
will make, since it will be a larger percentage of the
total weight.

You can go to www.analyticcycling.com and run some examples.

Pick various speeds and hill grades and see how much power
is required for:

a) your weight + 24 lbs

b) your weight + 27 lbs

Art Harris

Harris <[email hidden]> wrote in news:j2J7c.8362
[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

On the flats, it will be hardly noticeable. On steep hills
it will be noticeable but not a huge difference.

"Huge" is relative. On a long hill, a 5 pound difference in
bicycle weight can slow you down by 1 minute or more. On a
fun ride with your buddies taking a rest break at the top of
the hill, 1 minute isn't a big deal. In a race, 1 minute can
be more than the difference between 1st and last place.

"Ken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Harris <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:j2J7c.8362 [email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

On the flats, it will be hardly noticeable. On steep
hills it will be noticeable but not a huge difference.

"Huge" is relative. On a long hill, a 5 pound difference
in bicycle weight can slow you down by 1 minute or more.
On a fun ride with your buddies taking a rest break at the
top of the hill, 1 minute isn't a big deal. In a race, 1
minute can be more than the difference between 1st and
last place.

How long is that hill? If 5 lb meant an extra min, I'd be
climbing for almost an hour.

Peter Cole said:

"Ken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Harris <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:j2J7c.8362 [email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

On the flats, it will be hardly noticeable. On steep
hills it will be noticeable but not a huge difference.

"Huge" is relative. On a long hill, a 5 pound difference
in bicycle weight can slow you down by 1 minute or more.
On a fun ride with your buddies taking a rest break at
the top of the hill, 1 minute isn't a big deal. In a
race, 1 minute can be more than the difference between
1st and last place.

How long is that hill? If 5 lb meant an extra min, I'd be
climbing for almost an hour.

And, if it were a really, really long hill, it could add an
extra 14 hours.

--
Steven O'Neill [email hidden]

"Peter Cole" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:1yL7c.62259$J05.457880@attbi_s01...

Quoted message said:

"Ken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Harris <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:j2J7c.8362 [email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

On the flats, it will be hardly noticeable. On steep
hills it will be noticeable but not a huge difference.

"Huge" is relative. On a long hill, a 5 pound difference
in bicycle

weight

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

can slow you down by 1 minute or more. On a fun ride
with your buddies taking a rest break at the top of the
hill, 1 minute isn't a big deal.

In a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

race, 1 minute can be more than the difference between
1st and last

place.

In a race like that there will be people obsessing about a
few grams.

Quoted message said:

How long is that hill? If 5 lb meant an extra min, I'd be
climbing for

almost

Quoted message said:

an hour.

(calculator out...) 45 minutes here.

The answer to the original question- How much difference
does 3 or 4 pounds of non-rotating weight make? I'd guess
about $1000 - $5000

Ken said:

Harris <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On the flats, it will be hardly noticeable. On steep
hills it will be noticeable but not a huge difference.

Quoted message said:

"Huge" is relative. On a long hill, a 5 pound difference
in bicycle weight can slow you down by 1 minute or more.
On a fun ride with your buddies taking a rest break at the
top of the hill, 1 minute isn't a big deal. In a race, 1
minute can be more than the difference between 1st and
last place.

Who's talking about racing? The OP said he's looking for a
bike for general on road / off road riding, commuting, etc.
And only a 3-4 pound difference in weight.

Art Harris

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article <[email hidden]>,

Chris Hansen said:

Hello,

How much difference does 3 or 4 pounds of non-rotating
weight make? Say you have similar bikes with the same
wheels and gearing but one is maybe 3 pounds heavier, is
that a huge difference over a few hours?

I'm looking for a new bike to use for general purpose
onroad/off road/commuting/MS 150 and possibly a century
someday. At the top of the list are the Karate Monkey and a
few steel cyclocross bikes. The Karate Monkey weighs in at
about 27 pounds and the cross bikes around 24 or 25. How
high on the priority list is 2-3 pounds of weight?

_ I wouldn't worry about the weight too much. I'd think a
lot about exactly how much road riding you want to do. A
cross bike makes a very good fire road bike and with flat
bars a pretty good rigid mountain bike. The one place it
really suffers off-road is in climbing steep hills, the rear
chainstay length makes it hard to climb out of the saddle
and still keep traction on the rear wheel. With road tires,
the cross bike is a very good road bike.

_ While you can outfit a Karate Monkey as a road bike, I'm
not sure how much fun it will be on long rides. In
particular, you want to make sure that the top tube length
will fit you if you put drop bars on it. From looking at the
Karate Monkey frame specs, the top tube seems long compared
to a road/cross bike. Since cross bikes come in more sizes
it's easier to get this right. Seat and bar height can be
dealt with, but if the top tube is too long or too short
you're SOL.

_ If off-road is the most important consideration, get the
Karate Monkey. Or if you want to run tires bigger than about
45mm. I went through this debate about 6 months ago and
ended up getting a Cross-Check rather than a Karate Monkey.

_ Booker C. Bense

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I said:

Who's talking about racing? The OP said he's looking for a
bike for general on road / off road riding, commuting,
etc. And only a 3-4 pound difference in weight.

Correction, the OP said only 2-3 pounds weight difference.

Definitely not a huge difference.

Art Harris

Ken <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Harris <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:j2J7c.8362 [email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

On the flats, it will be hardly noticeable. On steep
hills it will be noticeable but not a huge difference.

"Huge" is relative. On a long hill, a 5 pound difference
in bicycle weight can slow you down by 1 minute or more.
On a fun ride with your buddies taking a rest break at the
top of the hill, 1 minute isn't a big deal. In a race, 1
minute can be more than the difference between 1st and
last place.

And go back to the OP's comment on use for this bike:
"general purpose onroad/off road/commuting/MS 150 and
possibly a century someday." Do you see 'race' anywhere in
that description? Not everyone is so narrowly focused that
everything bike has to translate into 'race'.

- rick

On 23 Mar 2004 11:42:59 -0800, [email hidden] (Rick Warner)

Quoted message said:

Do you see 'race' anywhere in that description? Not
everyone is so narrowly focused that everything bike has to
translate into 'race'.

Its irrelevant anyway. Numbers off the wall mean little,
even if you multiply them out as if they did. Non-rotating
weight may effect feel (or not, whatever), but bike racers
will race with a heavier bike in a lot of situations. It
doesn't translate to minutes, or even a minute, in most
cases. And doing math means little compared to situational
tactics - the stronger rider is going to bridge and/or hold
his or her position, even if the heavier bike may cost them
something somewhere in the mix. Maybe someone can come up
with a sprint finish where that heavier frame makes enough
difference to drop the person a place or two - like a two or
three person ducking and dodging thing that has the sprint
come from a near stop. Not that common.

Curtis L. Russell Odenton, MD (USA) Just someone on
two wheels...

Chris Hansen said:

Hello,

How much difference does 3 or 4 pounds of non-rotating
weight make? Say you have similar bikes with the same
wheels and gearing but one is maybe 3 pounds heavier, is
that a huge difference over a few hours?

I'm looking for a new bike to use for general purpose
onroad/off road/commuting/MS 150 and possibly a century
someday. At the top of the list are the Karate Monkey and
a few steel cyclocross bikes. The Karate Monkey weighs in
at about 27 pounds and the cross bikes around 24 or 25.
How high on the priority list is 2-3 pounds of weight?

Thanks.

The lighter the mass the less energy it will take to move
it. In constant terms you'll need less energy to move the
bike riding the lighter bike than the heavier one. In my
personal experience, I feel a noticeable difference when
riding without my camelbak (wt: 2lbs).

Kenny Lee

Rotating weight is somewhat overrated. True, it does
count for more during acceleration, as you not only have
to get the bike moving, but you also have to over come
inertia in getting the wheels to turn in the frst place.
but it's not much.

And ov course, once they are turning, weight is weight (an
object in motion...). An object that weighs 2 pounds is
going to take the same amount of effort to get up a hill
regardless if it's turning or not.

- - "May you have the wind at your back. And a really low
gear for the hills!"

Chris Zacho ~ "Your Friendly Neighborhood Wheelman"

Chris'Z Corner geocities.comczcornerOpen ↗

Harris <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Chris Hansen said:

How much difference does 3 or 4 pounds of non-rotating
weight make?

You can go to www.analyticcycling.com and run some
examples.

Art Harris

I went to analyticcycling.com and used their long hill climb
example. I set all the parameters identical except for the
rider weight. The standard rider weighed 65 Kg (143.3 lbs)
and the test rider 67 Kg
(147.7 lbs). This was a climb up a 5 Km (3.1 mile) hill at
an 8% grade with 275w of power.

The 4.4 lb difference made almost 30 seconds difference. I
was surprised it was that much.

Tom

Kenny Lee <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

The lighter the mass the less energy it will take to move
it. In constant terms you'll need less energy to move the
bike riding the lighter bike than the heavier one. In my
personal experience, I feel a noticeable difference when
riding without my camelbak (wt: 2lbs).

Kenny Lee

Wow, I think my Camelbak weighs about 5 pounds before I put
any fluid in it, considering the empty weight of the pack
itself, food, tools, wallet, keys, jacket etc., etc. Then
add two to three quarts of water at two pounds per quart,
and suddenly it is up to around 10 pounds. You must not
carry much in yours if it totals only 2 pounds...

Jonathan

"Steven M. O'Neill" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Peter Cole said:

"Ken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Harris <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:j2J7c.8362 [email hidden]:
> On the flats, it will be hardly noticeable. On steep
> hills it will be noticeable but not a huge
> difference.

"Huge" is relative. On a long hill, a 5 pound
difference in bicycle

weight

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

can slow you down by 1 minute or more. On a fun ride
with your buddies taking a rest break at the top of the
hill, 1 minute isn't a big deal.

In a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

race, 1 minute can be more than the difference between
1st and last

place.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

How long is that hill? If 5 lb meant an extra min, I'd be
climbing for

almost

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

an hour.

And, if it were a really, really long hill, it could add
an extra 14 hours.

Yes, but that hill would take me over 700 hr (about a month)
to climb, so I wouldn't sweat the extra half-day.

Jonathan Quist said:

Kenny Lee <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

The lighter the mass the less energy it will take to move
it. In constant terms you'll need less energy to move the
bike riding the lighter bike than the heavier one. In my
personal experience, I feel a noticeable difference when
riding without my camelbak (wt: 2lbs).

Kenny Lee

Wow, I think my Camelbak weighs about 5 pounds before I
put any fluid in it, considering the empty weight of the
pack itself, food, tools, wallet, keys, jacket etc., etc.
Then add two to three quarts of water at two pounds per
quart, and suddenly it is up to around 10 pounds. You must
not carry much in yours if it totals only 2 pounds...

Jonathan

Boy, you're doing some serious grunt action. I use the
Camelbak Rogue and only carry about a pint of water at a
time. On most of my rides there's usually some mom and pop
convenience store open where I can get a water refill if
needed and get some food. The items I bring along in the
Camelbak are: keys, hex wrench, spoke wrench, tube, mini
pump, tire levers, cell phone, money and a small Phillips
screwdriver. Weight, maybe closer to 3 pounds

Kenny Lee

Peter Cole said:

"Steven M. O'Neill" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Peter Cole said:

"Ken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> Harris <[email hidden]> wrote in
>
> > On the flats, it will be hardly noticeable. On steep
> > hills it will be noticeable but not a huge
> > difference.
>
> "Huge" is relative. On a long hill, a 5 pound
> difference in bicycle weight can slow you down by 1
> minute or more. On a fun ride with your buddies taking
> a rest break at the top of the hill, 1 minute isn't a
> big deal. In a race, 1 minute can be more than the
> difference between 1st and last place.

How long is that hill? If 5 lb meant an extra min, I'd
be climbing for almost an hour.

And, if it were a really, really long hill, it could add
an extra 14 hours.

Yes, but that hill would take me over 700 hr (about a
month) to climb, so I wouldn't sweat the extra half-day.

In that case, I'd stop and take a rest; it's a sure sign of
heat stroke.

--
Steven O'Neill [email hidden]

"Steven M. O'Neill" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Peter Cole said:

"Steven M. O'Neill" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Peter Cole <[email hidden]>
wrote:
>"Ken" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>> Harris <[email hidden]> wrote in
>>
>> > On the flats, it will be hardly noticeable. On
>> > steep hills it will be noticeable but not a huge
>> > difference.
>>
>> "Huge" is relative. On a long hill, a 5 pound
>> difference in bicycle weight can slow you down by 1
>> minute or more. On a fun ride with your buddies
>> taking a rest break at the top of the hill, 1 minute
>> isn't a big deal. In a race, 1 minute can be more
>> than the difference between 1st and last place.
>
>How long is that hill? If 5 lb meant an extra min, I'd
>be climbing for almost an hour.

And, if it were a really, really long hill, it could
add an extra 14 hours.

Yes, but that hill would take me over 700 hr (about a
month) to climb, so I wouldn't sweat the extra half-day.

In that case, I'd stop and take a rest; it's a sure sign
of heat stroke.

Very unlikely on a hill that big.

Kenny Lee said:

Jonathan Quist said:

Kenny Lee <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

The lighter the mass the less energy it will take to
move it. In constant terms you'll need less energy to
move the bike riding the lighter bike than the heavier
one. In my personal experience, I feel a noticeable
difference when riding without my camelbak (wt: 2lbs).

Kenny Lee

Wow, I think my Camelbak weighs about 5 pounds before I
put any fluid in it, considering the empty weight of the
pack itself, food, tools, wallet, keys, jacket etc., etc.
Then add two to three quarts of water at two pounds per
quart, and suddenly it is up to around 10 pounds. You
must not carry much in yours if it totals only 2
pounds...

Jonathan

Boy, you're doing some serious grunt action. I use the
Camelbak Rogue and only carry about a pint of water at a
time. On most of my rides there's usually some mom and pop
convenience store open where I can get a water refill if
needed and get some food. The items I bring along in the
Camelbak are: keys, hex wrench, spoke wrench, tube, mini
pump, tire levers, cell phone, money and a small Phillips
screwdriver. Weight, maybe closer to 3 pounds

Kenny Lee

Mr Lee, you appear to be using your Camelbak on the road
"some mom and pop ...", perhaps Mr. Quist is using his on
trails. In my neighborhood, money and a cell phone are
rarely useful on a long mountain bike ride, plenty of water,
food and tools are good.

--
Craig Brossman, Durango Colorado (remove ".nospam" to reply)