Horizontal aluminium dropouts.

Ambrose Nankivell said:

Does anyone have any techniques or ideas for making my axle stay put?

Are the locknuts on the hub axle serrated? Has this serration become worn?

Apart from that, make sure the threads of the axle and the nuts are clean
and lubricated. You could also try using track nuts, which have an
integrated washer (allowing you to tighten them harder without damaging the
frame).

Anthony

Ambrose Nankivell said:

Unaccustomed as I am to starting threads on this newsgroup, I have an
issue that I'd like to solve.

My main steed is a town bike made around a remotely absurd oversized
aluminium frame, with a nexus seven speed hub gear, and nutted axles.

Because of my manly powerful legs, or maybe the size of sprocket I
have, I find I often have problems with the axle moving forward in the
dropouts under acceleration, or gradually edging forward, so, either
way, the chain becomes less taut.

Whenever I am assaulted by the p+nct+re fairy, I always retighten the
wheel nuts as hard as I can with the 20-odd cm spanner I use for the
job, and indeed, over time, I have probably overtightened it, as the
aluminium has been indented with the shape of the wheelnuts, and
gouged out where the axle has pulled forward on the drive side. I
also am sure that I line up the axle as close to perpendicular to the
dropouts as I can manage before tightening, and I check halfway
through.
Does anyone have any techniques or ideas for making my axle stay put?

Chain tug, as used on single speeds. Depending on the design of the
drop-out, you might have to modify/bodge a tug to work around the bracket.

DIY design for front-facing horizontal dropouts:
- Plate of aluminim, drill near front to take axle hole. Drill two holes
near rear to take M3 or M4 bolts.
- Rectangle bar of aluminium. Drill&tap to take the M3 bolts (put these in
with loctite, they don't come out again). Drill and tap at 90 degrees for M5
or M6 bolt (this bolt acts on the rear of the drop-out to limit the forwards
tug).
Might be necessary to file a small flat on curved bit of rear of drop-out to
ensure tug bolt doesn't slip round.

- Nigel

--
Nigel Cliffe,
Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/

Ambrose Nankivell said:

Unaccustomed as I am to starting threads on this newsgroup, I have an
issue that I'd like to solve.

Quoted message said:

My main steed is a town bike made around a remotely absurd oversized
aluminium frame, with a nexus seven speed hub gear, and nutted axles.

Quoted message said:

Because of my manly powerful legs, or maybe the size of sprocket I have,
I find I often have problems with the axle moving forward in the
dropouts under acceleration, or gradually edging forward, so, either
way, the chain becomes less taut.

Quoted message said:

Whenever I am assaulted by the p+nct+re fairy, I always retighten the
wheel nuts as hard as I can with the 20-odd cm spanner I use for the
job, and indeed, over time, I have probably overtightened it, as the
aluminium has been indented with the shape of the wheelnuts, and gouged
out where the axle has pulled forward on the drive side. I also am sure
that I line up the axle as close to perpendicular to the dropouts as I
can manage before tightening, and I check halfway through.

Quoted message said:

Does anyone have any techniques or ideas for making my axle stay put?

You've nicely explained the silliness of making a bicycle out of soft
metal and expecting hard metal axle securing techniques to work. In
other words, [censored] engineering.

You could try bodging in an appropriately sized spacer to stop the axle
end sliding forwards.

--
Chris Malcolm [email hidden] DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

Ambrose Nankivell said:

Unaccustomed as I am to starting threads on this newsgroup, I have an
issue that I'd like to solve.

My main steed is a town bike made around a remotely absurd oversized
aluminium frame, with a nexus seven speed hub gear, and nutted axles.

Because of my manly powerful legs, or maybe the size of sprocket I have,
I find I often have problems with the axle moving forward in the
dropouts under acceleration, or gradually edging forward, so, either
way, the chain becomes less taut.

Whenever I am assaulted by the p+nct+re fairy, I always retighten the
wheel nuts as hard as I can with the 20-odd cm spanner I use for the
job, and indeed, over time, I have probably overtightened it, as the
aluminium has been indented with the shape of the wheelnuts, and gouged
out where the axle has pulled forward on the drive side. I also am sure
that I line up the axle as close to perpendicular to the dropouts as I
can manage before tightening, and I check halfway through.

Does anyone have any techniques or ideas for making my axle stay put?

Have you got the proper no-turn washers installed? These prevent the
axle from rotating in the dropoutslots

--
---
Marten Gerritsen

INFOapestaartjeM-GINEERINGpuntNL
www.m-gineering.nl

Quoted message said:

Does anyone have any techniques or ideas for making my axle stay put?

I get the same problem on my fixie...

You could try some chain-tugs, MKS do a 'fat' version which should
cater for an oversize aluminum frame (just about, I had to remove the
removable part of the drop outs that slide in to (maybe protect the
paintwork?))

Only tried fitting these once and couldn't get them quite in a
position where enough tug could be applied to the chain, so gave up,
but don't let that put you off, my mech. skills are unfortunately not
great. Might have another go tomorrow, as I keep having to tension
the chain-line every 80M or so to avoid some unsightly chain-sag.

Regards,

Duncan.

Quoted message said:

You could try some chain-tugs, MKS do a 'fat' version which should

MKS link:

http://www.hubjub.co.uk/mks/mks.htm

Duncan Smith said:

Quoted message said:

You could try some chain-tugs, MKS do a 'fat' version which should

MKS link:

http://www.hubjub.co.uk/mks/mks.htm

lovely bit of kit these, but a stamped zincplated version should retail
for 50p or so.

--
---
Marten Gerritsen

INFOapestaartjeM-GINEERINGpuntNL
www.m-gineering.nl

in message <[email hidden]>, Ambrose Nankivell

(') said:

Unaccustomed as I am to starting threads on this newsgroup, I have an
issue that I'd like to solve.

My main steed is a town bike made around a remotely absurd oversized
aluminium frame, with a nexus seven speed hub gear, and nutted axles.

Because of my manly powerful legs, or maybe the size of sprocket I have,
I find I often have problems with the axle moving forward in the
dropouts under acceleration, or gradually edging forward, so, either
way, the chain becomes less taut.

Whenever I am assaulted by the p+nct+re fairy, I always retighten the
wheel nuts as hard as I can with the 20-odd cm spanner I use for the
job, and indeed, over time, I have probably overtightened it, as the
aluminium has been indented with the shape of the wheelnuts, and gouged
out where the axle has pulled forward on the drive side. I also am sure
that I line up the axle as close to perpendicular to the dropouts as I
can manage before tightening, and I check halfway through.

What you want are 'chain tugs' - banjo shaped clips which have a bolt part
running through a cap which fits over the open end of your track-ends. You
fit the washer bit over your axle before the nut, then you slip the bolt
part through the cap, sit the cap on the track-end, tighten up the nut of
the chain-tug until the chain is acceptably tight, and then tighten the
axle nuts.

Browsing around on the Web I can't find any of these generic chain tugs,
but On-One sell some rather fancy ones:

http://www.on-one.co.uk/index.php?module=pagemaster&PAGE_user_op=view_page&PAGE_id=13&MMN_position=35:35

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
/-\ You have discovered a security flaw in a Microsoft product. You
|-| can report this issue to our security team. Would you like to
| | * Be completely ignored (default)?
| | * Receive a form email full of platitudes about how much we care?
\_/ * Spend hours helping us fix this problem on your own phone bill?

Ambrose Nankivell said:

Unaccustomed as I am to starting threads on this newsgroup, I have an
issue that I'd like to solve.

My main steed is a town bike made around a remotely absurd oversized
aluminium frame, with a nexus seven speed hub gear, and nutted axles.

Because of my manly powerful legs, or maybe the size of sprocket I have,
I find I often have problems with the axle moving forward in the
dropouts under acceleration, or gradually edging forward, so, either
way, the chain becomes less taut.

As others have said, chain tugs.

However when I had a problem from over-tightening wheel nuts on an old
bike, and the tension deformed the dropouts, which seems to be your
problem, I solved it with a few f***off big washers.
e.g. inner diameter of washer similar to axle, outer diameter 4+ times
axle diameter. (i.e. as larger as will fit).
The washers need to be thick enough not to deform when you tighten the
wheel nuts.

If you can, try tugs and washers together.

Martin.

Quoting Simon Brooke <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Ambrose Nankivell

Quoted message said:

My main steed is a town bike made around a remotely absurd oversized
aluminium frame, with a nexus seven speed hub gear, and nutted axles.

What you want are 'chain tugs' - banjo shaped clips which have a bolt part
running through a cap which fits over the open end of your track-ends.

A few people have said this, but I don't get it - I see no indication that
he _has_ track-ends. Surely the OP is describing a bike with conventional
horizontal dropouts?
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> Kill the tomato!
Today is First Epithumia, April - a weekend.

in message <[email hidden]>, David Damerell

(') said:

Quoting Simon Brooke <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Ambrose Nankivell

Quoted message said:

My main steed is a town bike made around a remotely absurd oversized
aluminium frame, with a nexus seven speed hub gear, and nutted axles.

What you want are 'chain tugs' - banjo shaped clips which have a bolt
part running through a cap which fits over the open end of your
track-ends.

A few people have said this, but I don't get it - I see no indication
that he _has_ track-ends. Surely the OP is describing a bike with
conventional horizontal dropouts?

If the open end faces forward, then, as you say, he's stuffed. If the open
end faces back (which I think it does on most designed-for-hub-gear
frames) then chain tugs will work, even if they need a bit of bodging.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; For in much wisdom is much grief; and he that increaseth
;; knowledge increaseth sorrow.." - Ecclesiastes 1:18

In article <[email hidden]>, Ambrose Nankivell
[email hidden] says...
<snip>

Quoted message said:

Does anyone have any techniques or ideas for making my axle stay put?

Front-opening or rear-opening dropouts?

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>, David Damerell

(') said:

Quoting Simon Brooke <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Ambrose Nankivell
> My main steed is a town bike made around a remotely absurd oversized
> aluminium frame, with a nexus seven speed hub gear, and nutted axles.
What you want are 'chain tugs' - banjo shaped clips which have a bolt
part running through a cap which fits over the open end of your
track-ends.

A few people have said this, but I don't get it - I see no indication
that he _has_ track-ends. Surely the OP is describing a bike with
conventional horizontal dropouts?

If the open end faces forward, then, as you say, he's stuffed. If the open
end faces back (which I think it does on most designed-for-hub-gear
frames) then chain tugs will work, even if they need a bit of bodging.

Sorry, yes, I do have forward facing dropouts.

I did look around quite carefully when buying (well, getting the
insurance company to order, but...) this bike, but I couldn't see
anything that was as all purpose as my bike (basically, 26" wheels and
an XC mountain bike like geometry) which didn't have an aluminium frame
with forward facing dropouts.

It's kind of tempting to take it up with the manufacturers (Scott), but
I don't think it's sensible.

A

Rob Morley said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Ambrose Nankivell
[email hidden] says...
<snip>

Quoted message said:

Does anyone have any techniques or ideas for making my axle stay put?

Front-opening or rear-opening dropouts?

Front, I'm afraid. Looks as if I'll have to put up with it until I've
got £200 in the piggy bank for one of SJS's eccentric bottom bracket
overstock frames.

Not that I'm that bothered by that possibility.

A

Anthony Jones said:

Ambrose Nankivell said:

Does anyone have any techniques or ideas for making my axle stay put?

Are the locknuts on the hub axle serrated? Has this serration become worn?

Very slightly serrated, but not as deep as the gouges in the dropouts.

Quoted message said:

Apart from that, make sure the threads of the axle and the nuts are clean
and lubricated. You could also try using track nuts, which have an
integrated washer (allowing you to tighten them harder without damaging the
frame).

I'll take things off and tidy up and see how it goes, then get some
track nuts until I can get a new frame, I think.

Cheers
--
A

Nigel Cliffe said:

Ambrose Nankivell said:

Because of my manly powerful legs, or maybe the size of sprocket I
have, I find I often have problems with the axle moving forward in the
dropouts under acceleration, or gradually edging forward, so, either
way, the chain becomes less taut.

DIY design for front-facing horizontal dropouts:
- Plate of aluminim, drill near front to take axle hole. Drill two holes
near rear to take M3 or M4 bolts.
- Rectangle bar of aluminium. Drill&tap to take the M3 bolts (put these in
with loctite, they don't come out again). Drill and tap at 90 degrees for M5
or M6 bolt (this bolt acts on the rear of the drop-out to limit the forwards
tug).
Might be necessary to file a small flat on curved bit of rear of drop-out to
ensure tug bolt doesn't slip round.

A tempting idea. I'd certainly go for that if I had my own shed.
Unfortunately, I'm emasculated that way.

Cheers
--
A

Chris Malcolm said:

Ambrose Nankivell said:

Because of my manly powerful legs, or maybe the size of sprocket I have,
I find I often have problems with the axle moving forward in the
dropouts under acceleration, or gradually edging forward, so, either
way, the chain becomes less taut.

You've nicely explained the silliness of making a bicycle out of soft
metal and expecting hard metal axle securing techniques to work. In
other words, [censored] engineering.

Sad thing is, pretty much all these bikes have this design. The Carrera
Subway does and I think the Ridgebacks do.

The only one I know of is one that I bought at the same time: the Dawes
Diploma. But that was for my mum to replace her bike. That's got a nice
steel frame which does the job, but it's a little too sit up and beg and
700C wheeled for me.
--
A

M-gineering said:

Ambrose Nankivell said:

Because of my manly powerful legs, or maybe the size of sprocket I
have, I find I often have problems with the axle moving forward in the
dropouts under acceleration, or gradually edging forward, so, either
way, the chain becomes less taut.
Does anyone have any techniques or ideas for making my axle stay put?

Have you got the proper no-turn washers installed? These prevent the
axle from rotating in the dropoutslots

They should be doing the job. They're certainly there. Does it matter if
the notch is in front of or behind the axle? I don't the the nuts are
loosening, but they're just massacring the aluminium in situ. I'll have
a tidy up, though.

Cheers,
--
A

David Damerell said:

Quoting Simon Brooke <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Ambrose Nankivell

Quoted message said:

My main steed is a town bike made around a remotely absurd oversized
aluminium frame, with a nexus seven speed hub gear, and nutted
axles.

What you want are 'chain tugs' - banjo shaped clips which have a
bolt part running through a cap which fits over the open end of your
track-ends.

A few people have said this, but I don't get it - I see no indication
that he _has_ track-ends. Surely the OP is describing a bike with
conventional horizontal dropouts?

Hence my earlier reply - a DIY chain tug for a **forward** facing horizontal
drop-out.

If the frame happens to be track-type rear facing horizontal, then
commercial chain tugs are the answer.

- Nigel

--
Nigel Cliffe,
Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/