Holy shatz! Cop stops bicycle!

On Sat, 12 Jun 2004 00:11:20 -0400, "Daniel J. Stern" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

*Reposted, this time to correct groups*

Quoted message said:

I was walking down Bloor St when I saw...

Quoted message said:

Now, it did my heart a lot of good to see and hear this.
There are way too many badly-behaved bicyclists in Toronto,
as there are in every other city.

Be nice if cops could/would (they probably can) write
tickets and impound bicycles until the ticket is paid.

-Stern (pedestrian/cyclist/driver)

I hear your momma was picked up on that same corner. Only,
not for bad biking behavior.

-B

In article said:

I was walking down Bloor St when I saw a copcycle pull
over a cyclist for running a red light...talk about shock
and awe!

Quite different from my experience. I stop and the cop
runs the red.

Quoted message said:

Now, it did my heart a lot of good to see and hear this.

The only times I've been stopped by a cop is when they
insisted I could not use the roadway but had to teeter on
the couple inches of pavement to the right on the while line
and left of the gravel.

Quoted message said:

I'd like to see a lot more of this kind of police
activity, but pragmatic questions pretty much scotch
the idea.

I'd like to see for ALL vehicles.

Quoted message said:

There's no law requiring registration of bicycles or
carrying an operator's license -- or, for that matter, any
form of identification at all -- while riding one.

This doesn't prevent a ticket from being written and
legally binding.

Quoted message said:

Should be, but isn't. So what if the cop stops someone who
hasn't got ID? What, exactly, can the cop do? And even if
s/he succeeds in writing a ticket, what's to motivate the
recipient to pay it? There'll be no demerit points on his
driver's license (which s/he may not even have). There'll
be no increase in insurance premiums (which s/he's not
required to carry). There'll be no denial of renewed
registration (also not required).

Because a warrant will be issued for his arrest. This will
turn up at a bad time like when he gets pulled over for
driving 70mph on an empty expressway at 2am.

Quoted message said:

Be nice if cops could/would (they probably can) write
tickets and impound bicycles until the ticket is paid.

Autos first. It would kill the speeding ticket industry. And
btw, cops are already known to do just that, cept it's with
anyone riding a bike within reach when there is some sort of
protest or convention going on.

Daniel J. Stern said:

*Reposted, this time to correct groups*

(Prefatory note to Brent: Yes, I'm aware there are many
badly-behaved motorists. No, I don't think they should get
off scot-free, either. Yes, I'm aware you're vehemently
opposed to bicycle and rider registration. No, I don't buy
your putative reasons for it. Yes, I know you have to
respond to this post. No, I won't get in a pissing contest
with you.)

I was walking down Bloor St when I saw a copcycle pull
over a cyclist for running a red light...talk about shock
and awe! I've never seen the likes of this before. The cop
ordered the cyclist to dismount, walk his bike to the
corner and park it, then lectured the guy for a few
minutes ("Red lights mean STOP, whether you're in a car or
on a bike or on your feet! It's the same rules of the road
for you as for everyone else who uses it!"😉. The guy was
arguing that he bicycles in this area all the time, there
were no cars coming, etc. The cop (surprise...) told the
guy he was just warning him this time rather than writing
a ticket, and eventually let him ride off.

Okay, has anyone ever seen a cop let a driver off after they
ran a red light? Hmmmm??

Unless the driver was a politician or fellow cop, I doubt
it.

And I love the argument from the bicyclist: there were no
cars coming. How the frig does he know? Is he psychic?
There were no cars coming because he lived to tell about
it. Had there been cars coming, they'd be scraping him off
the street...

...And the gene pool would be 0.000000000000000001% better.

John

--
To reply, remove "die.spammers" from address

Von Herzen, moge es wieder zu Herzen gehen. --Beethoven

Too many to read every reply, I hope this wasn't touched on.
We here in Florida have had police crack downs in the past
giving cyclists tickets for not stopping, as you say
"cyclists are subject to the same traffic laws as anyone
else". That is not quite true in this case, cyclists are
required to do more! Simply stopping at a stop sign can
still get you a ticket IF you fail to put one foot fully on
the ground. Comments?

Bob

"The Lindbergh Baby"
<[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Daniel J. Stern said:

*Reposted, this time to correct groups*

(Prefatory note to Brent: Yes, I'm aware there are many
badly-behaved motorists. No, I don't think they should
get off scot-free, either.

Yes,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm aware you're vehemently opposed to bicycle and rider
registration.

No,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I don't buy your putative reasons for it. Yes, I know
you have to

respond

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to this post. No, I won't get in a pissing contest
with you.)

I was walking down Bloor St when I saw a copcycle pull
over a cyclist

for

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

running a red light...talk about shock and awe! I've
never seen the

likes

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of this before. The cop ordered the cyclist to dismount,
walk his bike

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the corner and park it, then lectured the guy for a few
minutes ("Red lights mean STOP, whether you're in a car
or on a bike or on your feet! It's the same rules of the
road for you as for everyone else who uses it!"😉. The
guy was arguing that he bicycles in this area all the
time, there were no cars coming, etc. The cop
(surprise...) told the guy he

was

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

just warning him this time rather than writing a ticket,
and eventually let him ride off.

Okay, has anyone ever seen a cop let a driver off after
they ran a red light? Hmmmm??

Unless the driver was a politician or fellow cop, I
doubt it.

And I love the argument from the bicyclist: there were no
cars coming. How the frig does he know? Is he psychic?
There were no cars coming because he lived to tell about
it. Had there been cars coming, they'd be scraping him off
the street...

...And the gene pool would be 0.000000000000000001%
better.

John

--
To reply, remove "die.spammers" from address

Von Herzen, moge es wieder zu Herzen gehen. --Beethoven

"Daniel J. Stern" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

<article snipped>

Quoted message said:

Be nice if cops could/would (they probably can) write
tickets and impound bicycles until the ticket is paid.

AMEN to that. It would be espacially nice (for me anyways)
if they would do this to these idiot kids who have no clue
of and/or disregard the rules of the road.

--
Paul

Bob Newman said:

Too many to read every reply, I hope this wasn't touched
on. We here in Florida have had police crack downs in the
past giving cyclists tickets for not stopping, as you say
"cyclists are subject to the same traffic laws as anyone
else". That is not quite true in this case, cyclists are
required to do more! Simply stopping at a stop sign can
still get you a ticket IF you fail to put one foot fully
on the ground. Comments?

Sounds like the usual over-enforcement directed at auto
drivers, where the cop says you "didn't stop" if you didn't
wait 5 seconds before proceeding. The law needs to
recognize that when your car rocks back on its springs,
you've stopped.

<snip>. The cop (surprise...) told the guy he was

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

just warning him this time rather than writing a ticket,
and eventually let him ride off.

Okay, has anyone ever seen a cop let a driver off after
they ran a red light? Hmmmm??

Unless the driver was a politician or fellow cop, I
doubt it.

</snip>

I'm neither and I've had warnings for that AND speeding
while driving a car.

<snip>

Quoted message said:

And I love the argument from the bicyclist: there were no
cars coming. How the frig does he know? </snip>

A cyclist can see further down the road than drivers in a
car coming to a stop. Also many states have provisions for
cyclists, if there is no traffic at the light the cyclist
can proceed due to the fact that bicycles may not trip the
sensor to make the light change.

Just as there are different rules for pedestrians, trucks,
busses, and motorcycles... There are different rules for
cyclists. Some need to be modified with the times but there
are differences.

gun_dog99 said:

stop. Also many states have provisions for cyclists, if
there is no traffic at the light the cyclist can proceed
due to the fact that bicycles may not trip the sensor to
make the light change.

Applies to all vehicles. If a signal is not working
properly, one may proceed with caution. A vehicle not
tripping a sensor indicates a siognal not working properly.

Bob Newman said:

Florida have had police crack downs in the past giving
cyclists tickets for not stopping, as you say "cyclists
are subject to the same traffic laws as anyone else". That
is not quite true in this case, cyclists are required to
do more! Simply stopping at a stop sign can still get you
a ticket IF you fail to put one foot fully on the ground.
Comments?

That seems silly and pecksnifian. For a well-balanced rider
and bicycle, It's perfectly possible to come to the kind of
complete and adequate stop that a stop sign requires without
putting a foot fully on the ground.

-Stern

The Lindbergh Baby said:

Quoted message said:

it!"😉. The guy was arguing that he bicycles in this area
all the time, there were no cars coming, etc. The cop
(surprise...) told the guy he was just warning him this
time rather than writing a ticket, and eventually let
him ride off.

Okay, has anyone ever seen a cop let a driver off after
they ran a red light? Hmmmm?? Unless the driver was a
politician or fellow cop, I doubt it.

Hence my "(surprise...)".

Quoted message said:

And I love the argument from the bicyclist: there were no
cars coming. How the frig does he know?

He just, y'know, *knows!* Shut up, he does too! Does too
does too does TOO!

(In fact, Bloor street is busy 24 hours a day. There are
*ALWAYS* cars coming from three directions at the particular
intersection this guy blew.)

-Stern

In article <[email hidden]>,

Bob Newman said:

Too many to read every reply, I hope this wasn't touched
on. We here in Florida have had police crack downs in the
past giving cyclists tickets for not stopping, as you say
"cyclists are subject to the same traffic laws as anyone
else". That is not quite true in this case, cyclists are
required to do more! Simply stopping at a stop sign can
still get you a ticket IF you fail to put one foot fully on
the ground. Comments?

I think it's the same for mortorcycles, so I wouldn't say
the cyclist is required to do more in this case.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Daniel J. Stern said:

*Reposted, this time to correct groups*

(Prefatory note to Brent: Yes, I'm aware there are many badly-
behaved motorists. No, I don't think they should get off
scot-free, either. Yes, I'm aware you're vehemently opposed
to bicycle and rider registration. No, I don't buy your
putative reasons for it. Yes, I know you have to respond to
this post. No, I won't get in a pissing contest with you.)

I was walking down Bloor St when I saw a copcycle pull over
a cyclist for running a red light...talk about shock and
awe! I've never seen the likes of this before. The cop
ordered the cyclist to dismount, walk his bike to the
corner and park it, then lectured the guy for a few minutes
("Red lights mean STOP, whether you're in a car or on a
bike or on your feet! It's the same rules of the road for
you as for everyone else who uses it!"😉. The guy was
arguing that he bicycles in this area all the time, there
were no cars coming, etc. The cop (surprise...) told the
guy he was just warning him this time rather than writing a
ticket, and eventually let him ride off.

Now, it did my heart a lot of good to see and hear this.
There are way too many badly-behaved bicyclists in Toronto,
as there are in every other city. "Hey, lookit me! I'm a
car! WHUP, now I'm a pedestrian! WHUP! Now I'm neither!
Hey, lookit me riding on the wrong side of the street!
After dark! Without lights or reflectors! Wearing all
black! And if you hit me, it'll be all your fault, neener
neener neener! Whoah, sucks to be you, red lights are only
for cars!" etc.

You sound upset because the bicyclest is allowed to do
things an automobile driver is not allowed to do. When you
see him take advantage of his greater freedom it upsets you.
You want auto drivers to have that freedom to, or see it
taken away from the bicyclest...

I'm new to this car vs bicycle debate, yet is sounds very
familliar to the debate over in rec.boats; there it's motor-
boat vs sailboat. Different vehicles, but the same facts.
How much property damage can a bicycle do compaired to a
car? Can DUI bicyclests ram through the wall of the local
McDonald's killing and injuring happy meal eaters? Isn't
it true that a bicycle is inherently safer to opperate
than a car? If not for the opperator, then certanly for
everyone else?

Quoted message said:

I'd like to see a lot more of this kind of police activity,
but pragmatic questions pretty much scotch the idea.
There's no law requiring registration of bicycles or
carrying an operator's license -- or, for that matter, any
form of identification at all -- while riding one. Should
be, but isn't. So what if the cop stops someone who hasn't
got ID? What, exactly, can the cop do? And even if s/he
succeeds in writing a ticket, what's to motivate the
recipient to pay it? There'll be no demerit points on his
driver's license (which s/he may not even have). There'll
be no increase in insurance premiums (which s/he's not
required to carry). There'll be no denial of renewed
registration (also not required).

Be nice if cops could/would (they probably can) write
tickets and impound bicycles until the ticket is paid.

Here you claim that the rules that bicyclest must obey are
"unenforceable" because there is no license to revoke,
insurance premium to jack up or points to accrue. However,
there are many laws that people are expected to obey that
fit the same profile; shoplifting for example. A shopper
isn't required to carry a "shopping license" and won't have
any insurance problems or get any points if he is caught
stealing a loaf of bread.

I'm not saying that bicyclests shouldn't be licensed, but I
am saying that nothing you present here is a case for why
they should.

Daniel T. said:

Quoted message said:

"Hey, lookit me! I'm a car! WHUP, now I'm a pedestrian!
WHUP! Now I'm neither! Hey, lookit me riding on the wrong
side of the street! After dark! Without lights or
reflectors! Wearing all black! And if you hit me, it'll
be all your fault, neener neener neener! Whoah, sucks to
be you, red lights are only for cars!" etc.

You sound upset because the bicyclest is allowed to do
things an automobile driver is not allowed to do

No, see, that's just it: Bicyclists *AREN'T* allowed to do
things (like run red lights) that cars aren't allowed to do.
The guy who inspired my original post got ordered off his
bike and lectured by a cop; sounded like next time the same
cop sees him do the same thing, it'll be a ticket.

Quoted message said:

I'm new to this car vs bicycle debate

That much is obvious. Such a "car vs. bicycle debate" is
pointless. Roadway safety is EVERY road user's job, whether
they be on foot, on a bike, on rollerblades, in a car, on a
motorcycle...

Quoted message said:

How much property damage can a bicycle do compaired
to a car?

"Compared". Quite a bit, depending on how you define
"cause". When a bicyclist touches-off a multi-vehicle
incident, the total tab in injuries and damages can be
quite large.

Quoted message said:

Can DUI bicyclests ram through the wall of the local
McDonald's killing and injuring happy meal eaters?

They can ram through busy intersections against the light,
causing multiple collisions as drivers attempt to avoid
hitting them. Different venue, same effect.

Quoted message said:

Isn't it true that a bicycle is inherently safer to
opperate than a car?

Probably not.

Quoted message said:

you claim that the rules that bicyclest must obey are
"unenforceable" because there is no license to revoke,
insurance premium to jack up or points to accrue.

That's right.

-Stern

In article <[email hidden]>,

Daniel J. Stern said:

"Compared". Quite a bit, depending on how you define
"cause". When a bicyclist touches-off a multi-vehicle
incident, the total tab in injuries and damages can be
quite large.

Quoted message said:

Can DUI bicyclests ram through the wall of the local
McDonald's killing and injuring happy meal eaters?

They can ram through busy intersections against the light,
causing multiple collisions as drivers attempt to avoid
hitting them. Different venue, same effect.

I've heard this point raised in the course of discussion
before, but I've never seen nor heard of actual incidents
where this has occurred. Has anyone? And if so, how often
does it happen?

--
-- Powered by FreeBSD Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

Tom Keats said:

Quoted message said:

They can ram through busy intersections against the
light, causing multiple collisions as drivers attempt to
avoid hitting them. Different venue, same effect.

Quoted message said:

I've heard this point raised in the course of discussion
before, but I've never seen nor heard of actual incidents
where this has occurred.

'cause the cyclist, having caused mayhem, simply decides
he's a pedestrian, makes a 90-degree turn and cruises away
from the scene. Did anyone get his license plate? Oh that's
right...he DOESN'T HAVE TO HAVE ONE!

In article <[email hidden]>,

(Tom Keats) said:

In article <[email hidden]-
in.umich.edu>, "Daniel J. Stern"

Quoted message said:

"Compared". Quite a bit, depending on how you define
"cause". When a bicyclist touches-off a multi-vehicle
incident, the total tab in injuries and damages can be
quite large.

Quoted message said:

Can DUI bicyclests ram through the wall of the local
McDonald's killing and injuring happy meal eaters?

They can ram through busy intersections against the
light, causing multiple collisions as drivers attempt to
avoid hitting them. Different venue, same effect.

I've heard this point raised in the course of discussion
before, but I've never seen nor heard of actual incidents
where this has occurred. Has anyone? And if so, how often
does it happen?

I saw something close. I was making a left turn (with the
green light) when a bicyclist ran the light just as I was
turning. Needless to say the bicyclist was going too fast
for anyone to really react to his presence. He ended up
hitting an SUV (note the bicyclist hit the vehicle, not the
other way around.) The bike was totaled and the rider found
himself flat on his back. Amazingly, the bicyclist wasn't
hurt, of course the driver of the SUV wasn't hurt either,
how could he be? Hell, I didn't even see any scratches on
the side of his vehicle...

I'm not going to claim that what Mr. Stern says never
happens, but I expect that when something like that happens
but its a car rather than a bike that is "ramming" through a
busy intersection against the light, a hell of a lot more
damage occurs.

I still say he's just [censored] because he sees bikes doing
what he can't do in his car, but he isn't willing to ride a
bike in order to have the privileges that bikers have. Of
course, that doesn't stop him from wanting to take those
privileges away from the bicyclists.

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (Tom Keats)

asked:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

They (meaning cyclists... ed.) can ram through busy
intersections against

the light, causing

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

multiple collisions as drivers attempt to avoid hitting
them. Different venue, same effect.

I've heard this point raised in the course of discussion
before, but I've never seen nor heard of actual incidents
where this has occurred. Has anyone? And if so, how often
does it happen?

Specifically cyclists? No. But when I was in patrol I
investigated literally hundreds of crashes that were caused
by a third party's disregard for traffic rules and saw
dozens of similiar circumstances with my own eyes. Almost
without exception, those third parties just kept right on
going. Unless it was one of those times that I *saw* the
crash that is. Those people I stopped, returned them to the
scene, listed them as involved parties on the crash report,
and issued them tickets. Sometimes I miss patrol. <g> I
think there are two main reasons that there aren't more
documented cases of a cyclist causing a crash. First, unless
the cop *sees* it he's not going to list the cyclist on the
face of the report and most stats are gathered from the face
of the report. Second, in comparison to motor vehicle
traffic there really aren't that many cyclists on the road.
It's rather like, how many crashes has anyone heard of that
were caused by UPS delivery trucks? Not that many I'd wager
and it's *not* because all UPS drivers are careful
conscientious drivers that always obey the traffic laws.

Regards, Bob Hunt

"Daniel T." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]-
.umich.edu>,

Quoted message said:

I'm new to this car vs bicycle debate, yet is sounds very
familliar to the debate over in rec.boats; there it's motor-
boat vs sailboat. Different vehicles, but the same facts.
How much property damage can a bicycle do compaired to a
car? Can DUI bicyclests ram through the wall of the local
McDonald's killing and injuring happy meal eaters?

A DUI bicyclist could pull many types of idiotic maneuvers
that could cause a car operator to lose control of his
vehicle and plow into a McDonalds. And just why is that DUI
bicyclist on his bicycle? Did he lose his DL because of
multiple DUI's?

--
Paul

"Daniel T." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'm not going to claim that what Mr. Stern says never
happens, but I expect that when something like that
happens but its a car rather than a bike that is "ramming"
through a busy intersection against the light, a hell of a
lot more damage occurs.

What Stern is seeing (and what lots of other drivers see) is
cyclists disregarding the laws that they are supposed to be
obeying. The difference is that the car driver gets a
ticket, fine and higher insurance when caught. The cyclist
just gets away with
it.

Quoted message said:

I still say he's just [censored] because he sees bikes doing
what he can't do in his car, but he isn't willing to ride
a bike in order to have the privileges that bikers have.
Of course, that doesn't stop him from wanting to take
those privileges away from the bicyclists.

Since when do bicyclists have the privlege of disregarding
traffic laws that are there for the safety of everyone?

--
Paul