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Hitting the ground with ball first

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General fitness, health and nutrition
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13 September 2003
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14 September 2003
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Bob James
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  1. There were several discussions about running on ball or running on heel in this ng. To me anyway, at
    first glance, running on heel makes sense since it seems natural. Yesterday, after a lower body
    workout, I went for a 6M run and after the first 1/2 mile, my shin muscles (tibialis anterior I
    believe) started to hurt and would not go away even after taking a few seconds rest and stretching.
    3 weeks of not doing any lower body weight training, I paid for it this time. But running ball
    first, I did not feel the pain. In fact, I had more hop and was able to climb the hills faster and
    less tired at the top. It was amazing, a total surprise. The impact on running downhill seemed less
    as well. There were a few times of course when I had to revert back to running heel first, but 70%
    of the distance I ran it ball first. The only complains I have are my calves hurting and it was a
    little hard to control myself during the fast run like going downhill.

    I'm still afraid to do this, however. I'm not sure if I'm doing this right since the back of my
    shoes hardly touches the ground. This means the front tread of my shoes will burn off rapidly while
    the back would remain almost brand new. How do you run ball first?

  2. In article said:

    There were several discussions about running on ball or running on heel in this ng. To me anyway,
    at first glance, running on heel makes sense since it seems natural. Yesterday, after a lower body
    workout, I went for a 6M run and after the first 1/2 mile, my shin muscles (tibialis anterior I
    believe) started to hurt and would not go away even after taking a few seconds rest and
    stretching. 3 weeks of not doing any lower body weight training, I paid for it this time. But
    running ball first, I did not feel the pain. In fact, I had more hop and was able to climb the
    hills faster and less tired at the top. It was amazing, a total surprise. The impact on running
    downhill seemed less as well. There were a few times of course when I had to revert back to
    running heel first, but 70% of the distance I ran it ball first. The only complains I have are my
    calves hurting and it was a little hard to control myself during the fast run like going downhill.

    I'm still afraid to do this, however. I'm not sure if I'm doing this right since the back of my
    shoes hardly touches the ground. This means the front tread of my shoes will burn off rapidly
    while the back would remain almost brand new. How do you run ball first?

    Greetings. One of the posters here, "Beach Runner", made a conscious attempt to modify his running
    form in a similar way (move to ball first) and fried his achilles tendons within 20 minutes. BTW,
    modifying gait to work around an injury is a common cause of secondary injury.

    I'd suggest a more subtle approach than conscious change: incorporate some speed work into your
    training. This will improve your running economy, and it's safer than forcing changes. (See recent
    posts by Lyndon, where he cites a study on this)

    Also, check you're not overstriding by counting the number of strides each minute (should be close
    to 180). A lot of people overstride, which results in a very heavy impact. I rarely see people
    understride, so when in doubt, take smaller steps.

    Cheers,
    --
    Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflord

  3. Bob James said:

    There were several discussions about running on ball or running on heel in this ng. To me anyway,
    at first glance, running on heel makes sense since it seems natural. Yesterday, after a lower body
    workout, I went for a 6M run and after the first 1/2 mile, my shin muscles (tibialis anterior I
    believe) started to hurt and would not go away even after taking a few seconds rest and stretching.
    3 weeks of not doing any lower body weight training, I paid for it this time. But running ball
    first, I did not feel the pain. In fact, I had more hop and was able to climb the hills faster and
    less tired at the top. It was amazing, a total surprise. The impact on running downhill seemed less
    as well. There were a few times of course when I had to revert back to running heel first, but 70%
    of the distance I ran it ball first. The only complains I have are my calves hurting and it was a
    little hard to control myself during the fast run like going downhill.


    Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk. It's great, isn't it? The increase in efficiency can be amazing.

    Quoted message said:

    I'm still afraid to do this, however. I'm not sure if I'm doing this right since the back of my
    shoes hardly touches the ground. This means the front tread of my shoes will burn off rapidly while
    the back would remain almost brand new. How do you run ball first?


    My "normal" landing is forefoot. However, if I do more than 4-5 miles I can count on my calves
    locking up for several weeks (learned from painful experience). Here's something that helped me but
    you'll need to try it to see if does anything for you. Instead of landing full on forefoot, try
    landing a little further back (midfoot range). The efficiency is still greater than a true heel
    landing for me but my calves don't seem to mind. If you like trying different things with your
    running, try different landings - closer to the heel, closer to the forefoot. For me, the key to
    this fooling around was to maintain good overall form - posture, relaxed, etc.

    Layne

    -------------------------------------------------------
    The rec.running report archives may be found at kinder.cis.unf.edurec.running

  4. Bob James said:


    The only complains I have are my calves hurting and it was a

    Quoted message said:

    little hard to control myself during the fast run like going downhill.

    I'm still afraid to do this, however. I'm not sure if I'm doing this right since the back of my
    shoes hardly touches the ground. This means the front tread of my shoes will burn off rapidly
    while the back would remain almost brand new. How do you run ball first?

    I would echo a lot of what Donovan and Layne have already said. Check your cadence to see if you are
    near 180 - may need smaller steps, at least initially. Keep center of gravity above your feet.
    Change *gradually*, otherwise you're probably setting yourself up for injury in calves or achilles.

    Since you were running "fast", then you were probably more on forefoot (hence heel barely touching
    ground) than you would be on a slower run. If your calves hurt, you might try changing your form
    more gradually, by doing it during slower runs first (landing not as far forward), and maybe only
    part of the run. Like Layne, I started too far forward on forefoot initially and am now more toward
    midfoot, sometimes just barely in front of heel. It depends a lot on pace, trail footing, and hills.
    I think my cadence on the trails is a little slower (pick way around ice, debris) also than it was
    compared to bike path, but faster than what it used to be before I changed.

    I've got some other tweaking I'm doing as a result of some PT, some cross-training, and
    understanding biomechanics a little better - things that seem to be working, but am gradually
    incorporating them. I'm finding that rolling hill (probably 10-20% grades but I haven't measured
    them) running on trails helps a lot with my form. I usually have about 1-2.5 minutes uphill, little
    flat, then downhill, uphill, etc. - hence I've got only short periods when on forefoot. I then try
    to carry that form into next flat run or as much as I can.

    With most shoes, the shoes are probably past their useful running life when the tread wears down
    anyway. Wear could also be the result of shuffling. But some shoes do have better support in the
    forefoot area than others do.

    Dot

    --
    "Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

  5. [[ This message was both posted and mailed: see the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for
    details. ]]

    In article <[email hidden]>, Bob James

    Quoted message said:

    There were several discussions about running on ball or running on heel in this ng. To me anyway,
    at first glance, running on heel makes sense since it seems natural. Yesterday, after a lower body
    workout, I went for a 6M run and after the first 1/2 mile, my shin muscles (tibialis anterior I
    believe) started to hurt and would not go away even after taking a few seconds rest and
    stretching. 3 weeks of not doing any lower body weight training, I paid for it this time. But
    running ball first, I did not feel the pain. In fact, I had more hop and was able to climb the
    hills faster and less tired at the top. It was amazing, a total surprise. The impact on running
    downhill seemed less as well. There were a few times of course when I had to revert back to
    running heel first, but 70% of the distance I ran it ball first. The only complains I have are my
    calves hurting and it was a little hard to control myself during the fast run like going downhill.

    I'm still afraid to do this, however. I'm not sure if I'm doing this right since the back of my
    shoes hardly touches the ground. This means the front tread of my shoes will burn off rapidly
    while the back would remain almost brand new. How do you run ball first?

    Some thoughts:

    If you land ball first and do not allow the heel to touch down, the calf muscle feels the strain as
    you vertically displace your body weight a half inch to more than an inch depending on how much you
    bounce as you run. That downward vertical displacement if the heel doesn't make solid contact with
    the surface means the calf takes the downward motion of the body that occurs after you have lifted
    your body weight upwards as you sprung off the ball of the foot on the previous stride.

    If you watch good runners coming toward you, you will notice that if you took a series of of photos
    or a video and slowed it down, you would see that there were shots where it looked like the runners
    lower legs was not seen. That shot would look like the runner had an at the knee amputation. We know
    that the lower leg is hidden behind the thigh.

    It reappears as the knee comes forward and upward.

    Take pictures of normal joggers running fast and you'll notice that their lower leg never disappears
    and that seen from the side they land on the back of the heel of the shoe.

    The normal joggers as the run lift up their entire center of gravity and so the lower legs can
    pendulum forward, thus the lower leg is seen through the entire stride.

    Good runners learn to lift only their knees as they run and have very little vertical or up and down
    movement. Most other runners as you watch them have more vertical movement as they run

    If the body is falling forward, I see running as falling and then catching oneself gracefully with
    each step so as to maintain a steady speed. With the heel touching down after the ball on each step,
    one's foot bottom becomes the platform from which the body is catapulted forward by the other leg
    lifting forward and up and the opposite arm adding to the forward thrust so that the calf has very
    little work to do as the body is moving forward and there is very little vertical displacement. So
    in one way the calf almost touches the hamstring to allow that leg to get ready to touch down again.
    Think of the leg that is doing the work pushing off as the other leg and body are balanced on a
    skateboard. Once the body is moved forward, the calf has very little work to to...unless you don't
    lift the knee and rather displace the whole body.

    An exercise

    Thanks to an inquiry on [email hidden] by Linda McVetty, the GAPO Theory of Running's
    Virtual Running Clinic was created. This is the first exercise.

    Virtual Running Clinic Exercise 1 by Austin Gontang, February 4, 2001

    --- In theroadsscholar@y..., "Linda McVetty" <crux22@h...> inquired:

    Quoted message said:

    Do you, or anyone else know of any running clinics that focus on form?

    and inspired the creation on RoadsScholars of:

    Marching In Place: A Reflection and Practice of Running with form and style

    Created on the first Sunday of February: February 4, 2001

    c. 2003 Austin "Ozzie" Gontang, Ph.D. & Associates of rec.running

    Instead of looking at life as a narrowing funnel, we can see it ever widening to choose the things
    we want to do, to take the wisdom we've learned and create something. (Liz Carpenter)

    The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance -- it is the illusion of knowledge. Daniel
    J. Boorstin

    It is theory that decides what can be observed. Albert Einstein

    For every problem, there is one solution which is simple, neat and wrong. H.
    d. Mencken

    It started with the moniker: RoadsScholars. An idea by Michael Selman. The shared insights of Robert
    on the kinetic chain that takes place when we run, and a question by Linda McVetty were catalysts.
    Out of the chaos and immersion in my own folklore of talking about and teaching Proper Form and
    Style, is created the GAPO Theory of Running's Virtual Running Clinic.

    If it can be taught here, then it can be rolled out. It can be taught anywhere. If not, then it will
    have been an interesting experiment.

    Who knows this virtual Running Clinic might possibly allow me and others to create some personal
    residual value by teaching . I've spent 25 years thinking about running form and style. I've taught
    it to learn what works and doesn't work. The majority of my work has been gratis. The wealth I've
    gained is a treasury of friends, acquaintances, and people journeying along their paths that lucky
    for me intersected my journey. And so it continues.

    Whether it creates residual value or not, it will be an expansion on the San Diego Marathon Clinic
    established in 1975 and the International Association of Marathoners established in 1984. It is an
    extension of educating myself so that others can educate themselves. This approach so well stated by
    Socrates, Wilfred Bion and Pat Murray.

    Educate oneself mind/body/spirit. Acknowledge that the search for meaning, if there is meaning, is
    about folklore that works in one's own life. If the folklore doesn't work, then one's journey
    continues to find the folklore that does. Or in the search, possibly creating one's own folklore. If
    creating one's own folklore then it is sharing it to see if it works for others.

    The biggest difficulty to overcome is the mind traps we set for ourselves. "It's not what you know
    that gets you in trouble, it's what you know that just ain't so (that gets you in trouble)." E.g. In
    running the arm never swings behind the body. The running body moves past the forward arm.

    So for starters, you will work on the firing of the muscles for creating a better running form. You
    will play with marching in place for the next 2 weeks.

    A Theory of Running by lifting the knees and not the entire body with each step

    Exercise 1.

    Done when you have a few spare minutes or when you would normally be "just standing around." March
    in place several times during the day. You are retraining neuromuscular pathways.

    1. Stand with feet 4 to 6 inches apart.

    Teaching Tip (Posture): If you are splay footed: \ /. Rotate out the heels first so that you are | |
    and then bring the feet so the are | | and 4 to 6 inches apart. Rotation of the heels out first
    allows for the proper alignment of the hips.

    During your standing day this is a good exercise to rotate heels out first and then bring your feet
    3 to 6 inches apart so your legs are aligned with the feet parallel because the legs are aligned
    parallel. As you stand you should always be able to wiggle your toes while standing.

    2. March in place
    3. Crown of the head up.
    4. Eyes on the horizon.
    5. Hands relaxed at either side
    6. Eyes on the horizon.
    7. Head balanced on shoulders
    8. Eyes on the horizon.
    9. Did I say: Eyes on the horizon.

    Teaching Tip(Posture):

    The head follows the eyes. The body follows the head. A head balanced on the shoulders because the
    eyes are on the horizon takes approximately 10 minutes off of one's marathon time. No energy is
    wasted holding the head. The energy saved by the trapezius and rhomboid muscle groups goes into
    running the marathon well.

    You may now realize the bridle is an aid to keep the head of the horse up. If the horse stumbles and
    its head is up, it can catch itself. If the head is down. Yep, the body follows the head.

    As people age, they become afraid of falling. When you are afraid of falling you look down to make
    sure you don't trip over anything. So the very thing one is doing to keep from falling actually puts
    them more in jeopardy of falling.

    MARCHING IN PLACE

    Marching in place means lifting the knees up two to three inches. As knee one is being placed back
    down you will notice that it touches ball/heel. An interesting observation for someone who observes
    that the majority of runners HIT (my emphasis) on the back of the heel of the shoe first. Why do
    they land on the back of the heel of the shoe first?

    10. As soon as the heel of ball/heel of the foot-you-are-putting-down touches, you immediately lift
    up the other knee.

    Notice that the knee lift pulls the foot off the ground heel/ball.

    Notice that as you place the foot down ball/heel and instantly lift up the other knee, there is no
    jarring or jamming or bouncing of the body up and down.

    Notice that you don't need to jump up.

    Notice that you don't need to move your upper body from side to side.

    Notice that you don't need to move your upper body forwards or backwards.

    11. Get a cadence with your marching in place.

    Lightly touch ball/heel.

    Instantly lift up the other knee when the ball/heel of the other foot is grounded. The operational
    word and work here is: Instantly.

    Advanced:

    Get a cadence with your marching in place. Lift the right knee up a 12 inches and the left knee just
    the normal two or three inches. Place the right foot down so as to maintain the same cadence. Make
    sure that the ball/heel landing is quiet. You are putting the foot down as quietly as a cat. You
    actively have to place the right foot down to keep cadence. Bring the left knee up to normal quickly
    as the right ball/heel touches down. The quicker you can bring up the opposite knee, the quieter you
    other foot lands.

    Now do the same but lift up the left knee 12 inches and the right knee the two or three inches.

    Cadence. Cadence. Cadence. Cadence. Cadence. Cadence. Cadence. Knee up. Knee up. Knee up. Knee up.
    Knee up. Knee up. Knee up. Ball/heel. Ball/heel. Ball/heel. Ball/heel. Ball/heel. Ball/heel.
    Ball/heel. Quiet. Quiet. Quiet. Quiet. Quiet. Quiet. Quiet. Quiet. Quiet. Quiet. Quiet.

    In health and on the run, Ozzie Gontang Maintainer - rec.running FAQ Director, San Diego Marathon
    Clinic, est. 1975

    Mindful Running: mindfulness.commr.asp faqs.orgrunning faq

  6. "Bob James" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    I'm still afraid to do this, however. I'm not sure if I'm doing this right since the back of my
    shoes hardly touches the ground. This means the front tread of my shoes will burn off rapidly
    while the back would remain almost brand new.

    This is easily solved. When the forefoot is worn down, simply cut a hole for your foot in the front
    of the shoe, and wear them reversed. The fact that the heel is built up means that you have *even
    more* cushioning in what is now the forefoot. You'll get twice the mileage from your running shoes
    from now on!

    Roger.

  7. "Ozzie Gontang" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Cadence. Cadence. Cadence. Cadence. Cadence. Cadence. Cadence. Knee up. Knee up. Knee up. Knee up.
    Knee up. Knee up. Knee up. Ball/heel. Ball/heel. Ball/heel. Ball/heel. Ball/heel. Ball/heel.
    Ball/heel. Quiet. Quiet. Quiet. Quiet. Quiet. Quiet. Quiet. Quiet. Quiet. Quiet. Quiet.

    In in in any any any other other other community community community you'd you'd you'd be be be
    certified certified certified insane insane insane

    Peace peace peace and and and love love love

    Roger Roger Roger

  8. Quoted message said:

    There were several discussions about running on ball or running on heel in this ng. To me anyway,
    at first glance, running on heel makes sense since it seems natural. Yesterday, after a lower body
    workout, I went for a 6M run and after the first 1/2 mile, my shin muscles (tibialis anterior I
    believe) started to hurt and would not go away even after taking a few seconds rest and stretching.
    3 weeks of not doing any lower body weight training, I paid for it this time. But running ball
    first, I did not feel the pain. In fact, I had more hop and was able to climb the hills faster and
    less tired at the top. It was amazing, a total surprise. The impact on running downhill seemed less
    as well. There were a few times of course when I had to revert back to running heel first, but 70%
    of the distance I ran it ball first. The only complains I have are my calves hurting and it was a
    little hard to control myself during the fast run like going downhill.


    It represents a change in how your muscles have gotten used to running. In the long run, you will
    likely have less injury problems from running on the midfoot/forefoot due to lower impact forces,
    but in the short run there is an adjustment period where certain muscles can (will) get fatigued and
    get sore on runs. Make the adjustment over a period of time.

    Like Layne, I'm a natural forefoot striker, and when I started doing distance races after running
    nothing longer than 800 in high school and college, I had to learn to move my footstrike BACKWARD,
    toward midfoot, or my calves would get very sore after even a 5K. These days, my footstrike is
    dependent upon running speed: midfoot for mile pace and slower, forefoot only for 100-800.

    Quoted message said:

    I'm still afraid to do this, however. I'm not sure if I'm doing this right since the back of my
    shoes hardly touches the ground. This means the front tread of my shoes will burn off rapidly while
    the back would remain almost brand new. How do you run ball first?

    If you have a chance at a library or bookstore, pick up a copy of "Better Training for Distance
    Runners" and look at the photos on page 29: Seb Coe, Said Aouita, and Ingrid Kristiansen. Probably
    the 3 best of all time. Run like they
    do: shift the hips forward and run with a slight forward lean. This is the key part of
    converting from being a heel striker to being a midfoot/forefoot striker--shifting the
    center of gravity forward

    Do strides as part of easy days or warmup procedure. Strides are runs of 50-100 meters (normally)
    run at a pace faster than normal running pace (go to any road race and watch the elites warm up; you
    will see them doing this). When doing your strides, practice running with perfect form (including
    midfoot/forefoot landing and forward lean). These are not sprints (unless you are warming up for
    sprinting), but should be done at what feels like mile pace or a little slower. Initially, this is
    probably the only time you should concentrate specifically on footstrike and running form. As you
    get more comfortable, you can start doing shorter runs this way.

    If you live near the beach or a soft grassy area that you can run on, do some barefoot running. This
    teaches you to not run on the heels very quickly.

    Do some running on hills at a quick (but not sprint) pace. Hills isolate any problems with your form
    and encourage you to run on your forefoot. They also increase your leg strength, which makes it
    easier to increase your cadence (speed=stride_length X stride_rate).

    Do some drills, some of which can be found here:

    brianmac.demon.co.uktecdrill.htm

    Over time, landing on your midfoot will be come your natural way to run, and you will have more
    speed and fewer injuries.

    Lyndon

    "Speed Kills...It kills those that don't have it!" --US Olympic Track Coach Brooks Johnson

  9. In article said:

    "Ozzie Gontang" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Cadence. Cadence. Cadence. Cadence. Cadence. Cadence. Cadence. Knee up. Knee up. Knee up. Knee up.
    Knee up. Knee up. Knee up. Ball/heel. Ball/heel. Ball/heel. Ball/heel. Ball/heel. Ball/heel.
    Ball/heel. Quiet. Quiet. Quiet. Quiet. Quiet. Quiet. Quiet. Quiet. Quiet. Quiet. Quiet.

    In in in any any any other other other community community community you'd you'd you'd be be be
    certified certified certified insane insane insane

    Peace peace peace and and and love love love

    Roger,

    Some people have called my hometown, Insane Diego. Also "in sane" could be translated 'in health."
    Others over the years have called me crazy. Still others have said I suffer from psychosclerosis
    (hardening of the head) or psychoceramics (being acrack pot)

    Anyway however you you you put it life remains interesting.

    I'd be interested in what ways you'd describe what I'm attempting to describe regarding running form
    and style. Especially with the differences I've seen between good runners with minimal vertical
    displace/knee lift and runners with a lot more vertical displacement of their body than necessary
    and no knee lift

    If you want to see the displacement visually, turn away from some runners who are 20 to 50 feet
    away. They can be running away from you or toward you. Look like your doing a hamstring stretch with
    your legs apart and look at the runners upside down. That altered perspective gives a clear picture
    of the vertical displacement of the runners especially if they don't lift their knees (meaning they
    have to lift their entire center of gravity higher with each step).

    Mens sana in corpore sano.

    "In sane" and on the run, Ozzie Gontang Maintainer - rec.running FAQ Director, San Diego Marathon
    Clinic, est. 1975

    Mindful Running: mindfulness.commr.asp faqs.orgrunning faq

    Quoted message said:


    Roger Roger Roger

  10. "Ozzie Gontang" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Others over the years have called me crazy. Still others have said I suffer from psychosclerosis
    (hardening of the head) or psychoceramics (being acrack pot)

    You're not crazy. You're devious. Very devious.

    Quoted message said:

    I'd be interested in what ways you'd describe what I'm attempting to describe regarding running
    form and style.

    Bzzzzzz. May I interrupt? No you're not - interested, that it. The "tell me how you'd put it"
    approach is a fairly standard ploy to draw individuals into an arena that they may not even wish to
    enter. How can you offer standardised comments on form and style? 'Tis impossible. The human body is
    a wonderful thing, but standardised it ain't. To even imply there is an 'idealised running style' is
    to ignore the countless variations that exist amongst the human species. There *is* an ideal running
    style for each of us. There *is not* an ideal running style.

    Now continue...

    Quoted message said:

    Especially with the differences I've seen between good runners with minimal vertical
    displace/knee lift and runners with a lot more vertical displacement of their body than necessary
    and no knee lift

    "Good runners"???? "Runners with more vertical displacement....than necessary"???? Yes, I know what
    you're saying, but you take my point? Any style evaluation has to take into account individual
    factors. Even in individuals of the same build, height, and weight there will be differences in
    flexibility, muscle tone, aerobic capacity, etc, etc. You can't propose on the one hand that we're
    experiments of one, and on the other that there is some mythical set of standards to which we
    should all aspire. Let people run. If they do it with all the grace a poise of a charging
    Rhinoceros, then so be it.

    Quoted message said:

    If you want to see the displacement visually, turn away from some runners who are 20 to 50 feet
    away. They can be running away from you or toward you. Look like your doing a hamstring stretch
    with your legs apart and look at the runners upside down. That altered perspective gives a clear
    picture of the vertical displacement of the runners especially if they don't lift their knees
    (meaning they have to lift their entire center of gravity higher with each step).

    It's good that we're on opposite sides of the planet, else we'd both be under an obligation to track
    down the other and beat him senseless with a wet fish.

    Quoted message said:

    Mens sana in corpore sano.

    Men's saunas are corporate sumos? Doesn't make sense!

    Roger <my other personalities are in hiding tonight

  11. Quit being an ass, Roger. Ozzie provides excellent information and advice to this newsgroup.

    "Roger Hunter" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "Ozzie Gontang" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Others over the years have called me crazy. Still others have said I suffer from psychosclerosis
    (hardening of the head) or psychoceramics (being acrack pot)

    You're not crazy. You're devious. Very devious.

    Quoted message said:

    I'd be interested in what ways you'd describe what I'm attempting to describe regarding running
    form and style.

    Bzzzzzz. May I interrupt? No you're not - interested, that it. The "tell me how you'd put it"
    approach is a fairly standard ploy to draw individuals into an arena that they may not even wish
    to enter. How can you offer standardised comments on form and style? 'Tis impossible. The human
    body is a wonderful thing, but standardised it ain't. To even


    imply

    Quoted message said:

    there is an 'idealised running style' is to ignore the countless


    variations

    Quoted message said:

    that exist amongst the human species. There *is* an ideal running style for each of us. There *is
    not* an ideal running style.

    Now continue...

    Quoted message said:

    Especially with the differences I've seen between good runners with minimal vertical
    displace/knee lift and runners with a lot more vertical displacement of their body than
    necessary and no knee lift

    "Good runners"???? "Runners with more vertical displacement....than necessary"???? Yes, I know
    what you're saying, but you take my point? Any style evaluation has to take into account
    individual factors. Even


    in

    Quoted message said:

    individuals of the same build, height, and weight there will be


    differences

    Quoted message said:

    in flexibility, muscle tone, aerobic capacity, etc, etc. You can't


    propose

    Quoted message said:

    on the one hand that we're experiments of one, and on the other that there is some mythical set of
    standards to which we should all aspire. Let people run. If they do it with all the grace a poise
    of a charging Rhinoceros, then so be it.

    Quoted message said:

    If you want to see the displacement visually, turn away from some runners who are 20 to 50 feet
    away. They can be running away from you or toward you. Look like your doing a hamstring stretch
    with your legs apart and look at the runners upside down. That altered perspective gives a clear
    picture of the vertical displacement of the runners especially if they don't lift their knees
    (meaning they have to lift their entire center of gravity higher with each step).

    It's good that we're on opposite sides of the planet, else we'd both be under an obligation to
    track down the other and beat him senseless with a wet fish.

    Quoted message said:

    Mens sana in corpore sano.

    Men's saunas are corporate sumos? Doesn't make sense!

    Roger <my other personalities are in hiding tonight

  12. Roger Hunter said:

    "Ozzie Gontang" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Others over the years have called me crazy. Still others have said I suffer from psychosclerosis
    (hardening of the head) or psychoceramics (being acrack pot)

    You're not crazy. You're devious. Very devious.

    Quoted message said:

    I'd be interested in what ways you'd describe what I'm attempting to describe regarding running
    form and style.

    Bzzzzzz. May I interrupt? No you're not - interested, that it. The "tell me how you'd put it"
    approach is a fairly standard ploy to draw individuals into an arena that they may not even wish
    to enter. How can you offer standardised comments on form and style? 'Tis impossible. The human
    body is a wonderful thing, but standardised it ain't. To even imply there is an 'idealised running
    style' is to ignore the countless variations that exist amongst the human species. There *is* an
    ideal running style for each of us. There *is not* an ideal running style.


    []

    Quoted message said:

    Roger, ever consider the possibility, even with variations in the human population, that there are
    some general guidelines to running form?

    No? thought so.

    There may be factors that an individual cannot change in their form, but there are clearly poor
    ways to run and better ways to run. The one general principle common to human beings is the
    ability to adapt and learn. None of us does anything in the most optimal manner the first time.

    Live and learn.

    --
    Ed Prochak running: faqs.orgrunning faq family:
    web.magicinterface.com~collins
    --
    "Two roads diverged in a wood and I I took the one less travelled by and that has made all the
    difference." robert frost

  13. Roger Hunter said:

    This is easily solved. When the forefoot is worn down, simply cut a hole for your foot in the
    front of the shoe, and wear them reversed. The fact that the heel is built up means that you have
    *even more* cushioning in what is now the forefoot. You'll get twice the mileage from your running
    shoes from now on!

    The same concept for underwear. You can get four days out of single pair. Initial day,
    reverse(yellow in the back brown in the front), turn inside out and turn once more.

    --
    Caveat Lector "the further you go outside, the further you go inside" - B. McKibben Doug Freese
    [email hidden]

  14. Roger Hunter said:

    But if you'd forced me to learn to foxtrot, the world would have lost the possibility of learning
    the bumble bee from me.

    Excellent.

  15. Roger Hunter <[email hidden]> wrote:

    Ozzie said:

    I'd be interested in what ways you'd describe what I'm attempting to describe regarding running
    form and style.

    Roger replied Bzzzzzz. May I interrupt? No you're not - interested, that it. The "tell me how you'd
    put it" approach is a fairly standard ploy to draw individuals into an arena that they may not even
    wish to enter. How can you offer standardised comments on form and style? 'Tis impossible. The human
    body is a wonderful thing, but standardised it ain't. To even imply there is an 'idealised running
    style' is to ignore the countless variations that exist amongst the human species. There *is* an
    ideal running style for each of us. There *is not* an ideal running style.

    Now continue...

    Ozzie said:

    Especially with the differences I've seen between good runners with minimal vertical
    displace/knee lift and runners with a lot more vertical displacement of their body than necessary
    and no knee lift

    Roger replied: "Good runners"???? "Runners with more vertical displacement....than necessary"????
    Yes, I know what you're saying, but you take my point? Any style evaluation has to take into account
    individual factors. Even in individuals of the same build, height, and weight there will be
    differences in flexibility, muscle tone, aerobic capacity, etc, etc. You can't propose on the one
    hand that we're experiments of one, and on the other that there is some mythical set of standards to
    which we should all aspire. Let people run. If they do it with all the grace a poise of a charging
    Rhinoceros, then so be it.

    Ozzie said:

    If you want to see the displacement visually, turn away from some runners who are 20 to 50 feet
    away. They can be running away from you or toward you. Look like your doing a hamstring stretch
    with your legs apart and look at the runners upside down. That altered perspective gives a clear
    picture of the vertical displacement of the runners especially if they don't lift their knees
    (meaning they have to lift their entire center of gravity higher with each step).

    Roger,

    The articles which follow give some of the reasons and research findings why I disagree with what
    you're saying: "There *is not* an ideal running style."

    Here's some of the research that has reinforced my own observations and experiments-of-one regarding
    running form and style. I'm sure a number of rec.runners will find it interesting food for thought.

    In health and on the run, Ozzie Gontang Maintainer - rec.running FAQ Director, San Diego Marathon
    Clinic, est. 1975

    Mindful Running: mindfulness.commr.asp faqs.orgrunning faq

    No Skycaps Needed 208.245.156.153output.cfm By Carl Zimmer

    One of the most startling sights on a first trip to Africa is a common one: women carrying things on
    their heads. Try to carry a suitcase on your head, and you'll probably bite your tongue in
    concentration and wave your arms madly for balance. But African women walk for miles with heavy jugs
    of water or pots of food as if they weren't carrying anything. Energetically speaking, they aren't:
    researchers have found that the women can carry enormous loads without using any extra energy. They
    aren't defying any laws of physics, though; they're being good pendulums.

    In 1977 a team of Harvard physiologists, in Kenya to study the locomotion of wild animals, found
    themselves distracted by the load- carrying women. "When we tried to pick up the loads, they were
    just amazing," says Norman Heglund. "We wondered how the devil they did it." As a first experiment,
    Heglund's team convinced some Kenyan women to wear breathing masks as they carried their loads; the
    idea was to measure the women's oxygen consumption, calculate how many calories they were burning,
    and then compare their performance with that of non-Africans. There the experiment ran into a snag:
    the non-African researchers couldn't match the carrying capacity of the Kenyan women, at least not
    with their heads. Heglund and his colleagues had to resort to backpacks and to using old
    measurements from American Army recruits.

    Still, the results were extraordinary. The African women could carry a fifth of their weight
    without burning a single extra calorie; and although larger loads did require more energy, the
    increase was only half of that needed by the American soldiers. Some women could carry 70 percent
    of their weight.

    Funding agencies haven't exactly been desperate for the answer to this riddle, so it's only recently
    that Heglund has managed to get a step closer to one. While spending a year teaching at the
    University of Nairobi in 1989, he had some Kenyan women walk across force plates; last year in
    Belgium he repeated the experiment with European students. Force plates are devices that register
    the vertical and horizontal forces exerted by a walking animal.

    A walking human is like a pendulum swinging. When the pendulum is at its lowest point, it is moving
    fastest, and its energy is almost all kinetic energy of motion. As the pendulum climbs up one side
    of its arc and is slowed and finally stopped by gravity, that energy isn't all lost; most of it is
    stored as potential energy and is converted back into kinetic energy when the pendulum starts to
    fall again. But some of the energy is lost to friction, both in the bearing and between the pendulum
    and the air.

    Similarly, when you walk, the kinetic energy of your forward movement turns into potential energy as
    you rise on one foot and is converted back into kinetic energy as you fall onto the other foot. But
    with each footfall, only 65 percent of that kinetic energy is carried over into the next step; 35
    percent is lost, mostly to internal friction in your leg. That 35 percent has to be made up by your
    leg muscles, which convert food energy into kinetic energy.

    The 35 percent rule applies to Kenyan women too--until they start carrying things on their heads.
    Heglund's force plate readings allowed him to calculate how much energy his subjects were
    transferring from one step to the next. Without a load, Kenyan women and Europeans both transferred
    65 percent. When the Europeans carried loads on their backs, they still lost 35 percent--but now,
    since they were bearing more weight at the same speed, that 35 percent represented more energy in
    absolute terms, which they made up by burning more calories. In contrast, the Africans simply became
    better pendulums. When they carried a fifth of their body weight on their heads, they somehow
    managed to transfer 75 percent of their energy from one step to the next, losing only 25 percent to
    friction. With a greater load, one woman reduced her loss to 15 percent. Heglund doesn't know what
    biomechanical trick the Kenyan women are using--they couldn't tell him--but it must have something
    to do with carrying things on your head. People who carry things for a living, he notes, from
    Kenyans to Sherpas, tend to use their heads. "It's just amateurs like us that use suitcases and
    backpacks," Heglund says.

    See How They Run Carl Zimmer 208.245.156.153output.cfm

    Two legs are a lot to move, and four legs are considerable. But six legs are a quandary, and
    forty-four formidable.

    Here, according to Nilesh Patel, is how you paint the legs of an ant: Begin by finding the right
    paint. Don't use Wite-Out (it flakes off), and don't use oil-based paints (they're so thick that
    they make ants walk as if they're wearing casts). Acrylic is best, says Patel. And be sure to get
    the thinnest, finest brush your local art supply store has to offer.

    Next, chill the ant well. Patel, a 23-year-old senior at the University of California at Berkeley,
    takes his ants to the integrative biology department's temperature-controlled room, which he cools
    to 40 degrees. Inevitably the cold-blooded ants become sleepy. To completely immobilize them, Patel
    first tried trapping them under a staple pushed gently into Styrofoam, but they managed to wriggle
    free. Now he Scotch- tapes three of their six legs to a table. Gently pulling the free legs straight
    with a pair of tweezers, he dabs them with his brush. "The more practice you have, the better you
    get at it," says Patel. "When I first started, it took me about seven minutes, but now I can get an
    ant out in two."

    Patel learned to paint ants at the bidding of postdoctoral researcher Rodger Kram, whose work was
    spurred by a simple question: Do ants run?

    The science of animal locomotion is full of such simple questions; getting the answers has always
    been the difficult part. In 1872, for example, Leland Stanford, a railroad tycoon and the founder of
    Stanford University, got into a heated debate as to whether all four legs of a horse leave the
    ground when it trots. Legend has it that he even bet $25,000 that they did. In any case, he did
    bankroll famed landscape photographer Eadweard Muybridge to find out. Muybridge had horses trot down
    a path strung with threads connected to a row of cameras; when the horses snapped the threads, the
    cameras snapped the pictures. It took Muybridge years to perfect a shutter fast enough and film
    sensitive enough to capture the images (he also needed some time off to defend
    himself--successfully-- against the charge that he had murdered his wife's lover), but in 1877 he
    was finally able to give Stanford his answer: a series of pictures of a horse in motion, one of
    which showed the animal seemingly levitating, with all its legs in the air.

    Like Muybridge, Kram wanted to take a series of pictures of an animal in motion--albeit a much, much
    smaller animal. And, like Muybridge, he had some technical considerations. Because even his
    high-speed video cameras couldn't easily distinguish a moving ant's six legs, he decided that the
    three facing the camera had to be painted white. Next, he and Patel built a narrow plastic chute for
    the painted ants to dash through, coating the walls with liquid Teflon to keep the ants from
    climbing up its sides. Patel then spent several weeks videotaping ants traveling down the chute. A
    prod from a pair of forceps or a puff of air was enough to get an ant moving. Patel would reach over
    to the camera and switch it on in time to tape the insect's movements.

    One morning last fall, one ant gave Patel some trouble. "As soon as I touched him he took off," he
    recalls, "and I wasn't fast enough turning on the camera." By simply turning the camera on before
    prodding the ant, however, he succeeded in capturing the animal's movements on tape. Later, watching
    the tape in slow motion, he and Kram saw something remarkable. In previous trials, the ants had used
    their normal gait, known as the alternating tripod, in which two legs on one side and one leg on the
    opposite side move in concert--the ant would raise, say, its middle left leg and its front and back
    right legs, bring them forward, plant them on the ground, then repeat the movement with its other
    three legs. But the tape of Patel's swift ant showed that at one point all its legs actually left
    the ground. It was the first image of a running ant ever captured. "Unfortunately," says Kram,
    "nobody had bet any money on it."

    Kram and Patel, along with the dozen other Berkeley researchers who make up the PolyPEDAL lab (PEDAL
    stands for Performance, Energetics, and Dynamics of Animal Locomotion), are modern Muybridges. But
    instead of exposing the hidden complexities in the movement of tetrapods--animals like ourselves,
    with four limbs--the PolyPEDAL lab specializes in the even more complicated mysteries of arthropods,
    creatures that move on six or more legs and have external skeletons. Among the lab's menagerie, in
    addition to the trotting ants, you'll find galloping crabs, undulating centipedes, and a cockroach
    so fast it's made the Guinness Book of World Records.

    "We don't study arthropods because we like them," says Robert Full, the 36-year-old physiologist who
    directs the lab. "Many of them are actually disgusting. But they tell us secrets of nature that we
    can't find out from studying one species, such as humans."

    They are also telling the researchers secrets that may soon be applied to some very unnatural
    creatures. For decades engineers and computer scientists have been convinced that walking,
    insectlike robots would be ideal for moving over rough terrain. Thus far, though, the slow, awkward
    machines they've built embody none of the speed and grace of insects. That, Full says, is because
    they've based most of their designs on old assumptions about how insects move, assumptions the
    PolyPEDAL lab has shown are false.

    Until the PolyPEDAL lab came along, researchers looking at animal locomotion concentrated on
    tetrapods even though there are several hundred times more arthropod species on this planet. It's
    hard to blame the researchers, though. After all, it's much easier to film and analyze the four
    heavy legs of a running dog than the six nearly weightless limbs of a skittering roach.

    After completing his famous studies of horse movement, Muybridge went on to photograph many other
    tetrapods, including humans, and showed that, as a rule, they all lifted their legs off the ground
    simultaneously while running. That complete lack of contact with the ground, in fact, came to define
    the act of running. It's a fairly crude definition, though--it tells you only about a brief moment
    in an animal's gait and doesn't describe the rest of the motion. These days researchers are
    constructing better definitions of walking and running by focusing on two simple models: pendulums
    and pogo sticks.

    A pendulum can swing for a long time because it continually recovers its energy. On its downward
    stroke, it's powered by the force of gravity; when it reaches the lowest point of its arc it has so
    much energy that it can counteract gravity and swing upward. When you walk, your body behaves like
    an upside-down pendulum: the foot you plant in front of you is the pendulum's axis, your center of
    mass the hanging weight. In the beginning of your stride you work against gravity, vaulting your
    center of mass upward with your leg until you reach your highest point. Gravity then takes over, and
    your body swings downward until your other leg hits the ground. The next stride is even easier. You
    can use the energy given to you by gravity to vault yourself into your second and all successive
    steps, just as a pendulum reclaims its energy in each swing.

    When you run, however, you stop behaving so much like a pendulum and begin behaving more like a pogo
    stick. Now when you first plant your leg, your body sinks down on it instead of rising up. Your leg
    actually acts as a brake for your body, and so your center of mass is at its lowest point when your
    acceleration is lowest. Meanwhile your tendons are acting as springs. As they stretch and snap back,
    they store and release energy, just like the spring in a pogo stick, and propel you upward and
    forward. Thus running, like walking, recovers energy and cuts down on your expenditure.

    One intriguing implication of the pogo-stick model is that you don't have to have both feet in the
    air to be running. In 1986 Thomas McMahon, a biomechanicist at Harvard, videotaped six runners
    trying to imitate that miracle of locomotion, Groucho Marx. They deliberately bent their legs deeply
    as they ran, so that they always kept one foot on the ground, yet their bodies still behaved like
    pogo sticks. So much for Muybridge.

    At the time, Full was working in the laboratory of McMahon's collaborator, [censored] Taylor,
    investigating the intricacies of crab metabolism. One of the things he needed to know was what the
    crabs were doing with their limbs: Were they using any kind of energy-saving gait? The conventional
    wisdom at the time--which, as is often the case with conventional wisdom, had no real evidence to
    back it up--was that if tetrapods were pendulums and pogo sticks, then arthropods were wheels. Like
    a wheel, it was thought, an arthropod's center of mass moved forward at a constant speed, never
    rising or falling, and so the animal never recovered energy as it moved.

    To study crab locomotion, Full wanted to use one of the lab's force plates--a device that measures
    the impact of an animal's footsteps. Generally a force plate consists of a sheet of wood or metal
    sitting atop a grid of crisscrossing beams. Inside each of the beams are gauges that are squeezed by
    the pressure of the animal's feet as it walks overhead; some gauges measure the up-and-down impacts
    while others sense forward-and- backward or side-to-side forces. But no one had ever tried to use a
    force plate to detect the steps of a half-ounce crab before. To do so, Full and a fellow postdoc
    gave the plate more sensitive gauges and a more complicated electronic configuration, then sent
    crabs scuttling over its surface.

    When Full saw the force patterns the crabs were creating, he had a feeling of déjà vu. Far from
    moving like a wheel, the crab's center of mass rose and fell, and the crab itself slowed down and
    sped up rhythmically. At low speeds it walked like a pendulum, with gravity aiding its forward
    movement; and at faster speeds it ran like a pogo stick, with energy clearly being stored and
    released in some unidentified springlike structures. The crabs rarely became airborne, which meant
    that they, too, could run like Groucho. "I said, 'My goodness, there are so many similarities to the
    general model--it can't happen!' " says Full.

    To see if perhaps crabs were the exception rather than the rule among arthropods, Full decided to
    study cockroaches. But the insects, at a twentieth of an ounce, were too light for even the
    state-of-the-art Harvard force plates. Full had to wait until he came to Berkeley later that year,
    where he set up the PolyPEDAL lab. It took almost 12 months, but with the help of an undergraduate
    named Michael Tu he managed to build and calibrate a force plate that could measure the impact of a
    cockroach's steps. The construction wasn't easy. "You have 24 strain gauges made out of silicon
    slivers and gold wires about twice the thickness of a hair, and you have to glue all the gauges on
    the beams and solder the wires to terminals by hand," Full explains. This was all then covered with
    a layer of wood a half-millimeter thick. It was worth the effort, however: Full and Tu promptly
    discovered that cockroaches walk and run like crabs--and horses and humans--by behaving like
    pendulums and pogo sticks.

    But though an arthropod moves like a tetrapod, each of its many legs behaves uniquely. With student
    Lena Ting, Full measured the force of each individual cockroach leg by covering the lab's force
    plate with a second thin sheet of wood, suspended just slightly above the first, with two cutout
    patches the size of a roach's foot. Into these holes went cardboard plugs that sat on the lower
    plate. The force of the roach's footsteps was thus detected only when the insect hit the plugs and
    indirectly struck the plate below. Using this device, Full and Ting found that when a running
    roach's rear legs strike the ground, they push back against it to propel the roach forward; the
    front legs act like a set of brakes, decelerating the roach; and the middle legs act like human
    legs-- like pogo sticks--to both accelerate and decelerate the body.

    It was during these experiments that Full and his students discovered that the American cockroach
    can run five feet per second, a speed the Guinness Book of World Records recognized as the fastest
    of any insect on Earth. This means the roach travels 50 body lengths in a second. A human would have
    to run 200 miles an hour to match that pace.

    It was also during these experiments that the researchers noticed something truly peculiar: the
    roach was running with its body tilted up 23 degrees. "The film wasn't very good, and we couldn't
    tell what the hell the animal was doing," Full remembers. "And then we looked at the force
    platform." Periodically it registered no forces at all--in other words, there were times when the
    roach had taken all its feet off the ground. Taken together with the images of the roaches tilting
    upward, this suggested that the bugs were getting up on their two long rear legs and running. "We
    thought the plate was broken, or maybe there had been a gust of wind, so we made the roaches do it
    again." Eventually they looked at 40 roaches, using high-speed video with better resolution. In
    every case, they could see the roaches tilt up their bodies and sprint on their two back legs, just
    like humans.

    Roaches turn bipedal at top speeds, Full suspects, because running on six becomes counterproductive.
    Their legs, he notes, are moving back and forth 27 times a second, which is probably as fast as
    their muscles can work. "The only way to go faster, then, is to take bigger steps," says Full, "and
    since the front legs are a third shorter than the rear ones, they can't possibly have the same
    stride length."

    Still, it was hard to accept that cockroaches could run on two legs, particularly because it
    seemed as if they were breaking the laws of physics. "When we calculated it, it seemed that they
    should just fall forward because they're tipped so far over," says Full. Their secret lies in
    their aerodynamics, a peculiar consequence of the insect's small size and high running speed.
    Berkeley biomechanics expert Mimi Koehl teamed up with Full to do wind-tunnel experiments and
    showed that when the roach is sprinting, the air pushes against it so hard that it keeps the roach
    from falling down.

    It's difficult enough to decipher the mysteries of six-legged cockroaches and eight-legged crabs.
    What about a 44-legged centipede? Researchers have long assumed that a crawling centipede, at least,
    moves like a wheel--after all, it certainly looks as if it's gliding as smoothly as a chair on
    casters. They also thought a centipede's movement was rather uneconomical. Many centipedes bend like
    snakes when they move quickly, apparently wasting energy in undulations that could be used to move
    the animal forward. At fault, supposedly, was the centipede body plan. Centipede legs extend
    diagonally down from a long, flexible body. As each leg twists at the joint to propel the animal
    forward, the force also inadvertently swings the body around the joint.

    To test these assumptions, PolyPEDAL lab member Bruce Anderson turned to the common Arizona
    centipede, a species with a particularly pronounced undulating walk. It's a chilling creature, six
    inches long, with an orange body, 44 yellow legs, giant pincer jaws, and a painful bite-- indeed,
    Anderson will handle it only with a gigantic pair of tweezers.

    When he videotaped the centipede in motion, Anderson found what PolyPEDALists have almost come to
    expect: rather than moving smoothly forward like a wheel, the centipede's body accelerates and
    decelerates as it travels. He also found that it's a much more economical creature than was once
    thought. Anderson implanted electrodes in the centipede's trunk muscles and found that whenever a
    segment of its body was curved out to the left, contracting muscles would then begin forcing that
    segment to curve to the right. When the segment was curved out to the right, the opposite action
    would occur. In other words, the centipede was not passively bending as a result of its anatomy; it
    was actively trying to undulate. And the bending seemed to be saving it energy--oxygen-consumption
    experiments showed that the centipede actually needed less fuel to move than most other animals of
    its weight.

    To see how it was saving energy, though, meant seeing what each of the creature's 44 legs was doing,
    and force plates just weren't up to the task. For that the lab needed another device, known to the
    PolyPEDALists as the Jell-O track. The creation of engineering student Angela Yamauchi, it's a clear
    plastic chute with a long, shallow tray of transparent gelatin sitting between two filters, one
    below the gelatin, the other just above it. Polarized light shines up from the bottom of the track.

    Polarized light consists of photons that have been filtered so they all vibrate in the same plane.
    If the light encounters a second filter oriented in the same direction, it can pass right through.
    But if you rotate the second filter 90 degrees, as is the case with the filter above the gelatin,
    all the light is blocked.

    Viewed through the filter above the track, therefore, the clear gelatin looks black. But when an
    object--say, the foot of an insect--rests on it, the gelatin's structure is transformed. It begins
    to interfere with the light passing through, changing its polarization. Photons that had been
    blocked by the second filter are then able to pass through. When an insect ambles down the track,
    little splotches of white light thus appear around its feet. By looking at the size of a splotch,
    Yamauchi can calculate the size of the force, and by analyzing its shape, she can tell you in what
    direction the force is moving.

    When Anderson set his centipede on the Jell-O track, he discovered something remarkable. At any
    moment, most of the centipede's legs are not on the gelatin--in fact, on average, only four touch
    the ground at a time. These four are the legs at the centermost point of the concave side of the
    four curves in the centipede's body, two on the left side and two on the right. As the centipede
    undulates forward and the next foot in line reaches the center of a bend, the centipede lifts up the
    planted foot and sets the next foot down on the same spot. As different legs reach the center of the
    curves, they make the entire animal speed up or slow down, with the middle legs supplying most of
    the propulsive force.

    How does this help the centipede save energy? "I made stick figures of these things until I was
    bleary-eyed," says Anderson, but eventually he came up with a theory. Since the centipede is moving
    only four legs at a time, rather than 44, it takes less energy overall to operate its legs. This
    could pose a problem, of course; fewer legs on the ground means less support for the centipede's
    long, flexible body. But by bending the body in the first place--which requires flexing its body
    muscles--the centipede keeps its body tight and stops it from sagging.

    Of the many arthropods that have made their way into the PolyPEDAL lab, only one actually moves
    anything like a wheel. In 1979 Berkeley biologist Roy Caldwell encountered a species of
    stomatopod--a small, shrimplike creature--that had washed up on a beach in Panama. Lying on its
    back, it pulled its tail to its head to form a hoop and did a backward somersault, letting its back
    flop onto the ground. Then it pulled its tail up again and rolled on, slowly making its way back
    into the ocean.

    When Full and his students videotaped some stomatopods in the lab in 1992, they found that for 40
    percent of each "stride," when the creature forms a hoop, it indeed moves exactly like a wheel. But
    during the other 60 percent--when it's raising its body up and flopping it down--its center of mass
    rises and falls, slows down and speeds up. "It's the ultimate example of something that is close to
    a wheel," says Full, "but even there, it has forces that look like a leg--except that now the leg is
    the body."

    It's not only in the animal world that legs seem to make more sense than wheels. Engineers have long
    wanted to make robots with legs for traveling over natural terrain, and robots with six legs or more
    make the most sense. There is already a long shopping list of uses for a walking robot, including
    exploring the moon and Mars and inspecting toxic waste sites. But today's crop of robots is a long
    way from any moon walk. One of the most famous walking robots, a six-legged machine named Attila,
    from the laboratory of MIT engineer Rodney Brooks, is a case in point: it's slow and it uses too
    much energy. "Attila can go three feet in 30 seconds," explains Mike Binnard, a member of Brooks's
    lab. "If you watch a video, it looks okay in fast-forward, but at regular speed it's pretty boring."

    The problem, according to Full, is that engineers rely on the old conception of insects as having
    simple, wheellike locomotion. But Full has been preaching his new biomechanical gospel to robot
    designers for three years now, and they're beginning to take his suggestions to heart. Binnard, for
    example, is in the process of building an Attila-style robot with cockroach legs. Using Full's
    extensive data on the insect, he replaced its six identical limbs with three differently shaped
    pairs of legs: small front legs that act like brakes, longer middle legs that push in both
    directions, and even longer rear legs that push the robot forward. The savings in energy should help
    it travel five times faster than Attila.

    Binnard and the other robot designers are not the only ones benefiting from this collaboration. The
    questions they ask have led Full and his PolyPEDAL students into entirely new areas of inquiry. For
    instance, Binnard recently asked Kram how he might teach his robot to climb over objects. It's
    something robots are particularly bad at: they slowly plant one foot at a time, continually check
    their balance, and when they finally pull themselves up, they often strip their gears as they go.
    Cockroaches, on the other hand, can race over almost anything. Faced with the question, Kram
    realized he didn't actually know how cockroaches do it. So he and Yamauchi built a step for the
    Jell-O track, ran roaches over it, and discovered that as the roaches approach the step, they tilt
    their front ends up with their middle legs and put their front legs on the ledge. But they don't use
    their front legs to pull themselves up; instead they boost themselves over with a strong push of
    their back legs.

    While Full loves the idea of a scurrying roach robot, his ultimate dream is a mechanical crab. Not
    only can a crab race across dry land, it can plunge into crashing surf and continue running
    underwater. A robot with a crab's skills could do a number of remarkable things. Consider Marines
    trying to land on a beach laced with mines. Crab robots could jump out of the landing craft, run
    onshore, hunt the mines down, and set them off. Rockwell International recently gave a contract to
    Full and IS Robotics, a Massachusetts robotics company, to design such a robot for the Navy. A robot
    crab could also distinguish itself in civilian duty. Researchers surveying the ocean floor or
    engineers inspecting underwater construction use propeller-driven, tethered machines. In strong
    currents or crashing waves these devices get tossed around and are often rendered useless. A robot
    with a crab's stability, on the other hand, could easily work in these inhospitable places.

    To build such a robot, however, the researchers need to understand better just how crabs do what
    they do. Marlene Martinez, another Berkeley grad student, is therefore collecting data on real
    crabs. She's seen crabs that live on rocky beaches wrap their legs around small rocks to resist the
    crashing waves, and she's heard of species that live on sandy beaches vibrating their legs to
    liquefy the sand so they can jam their limbs down into it and hold on tight. She's observed how,
    when a crab walks underwater, it adjusts the angle at which its body points so the water will lift
    and support it. This added buoyancy means the crab doesn't need to keep as many legs on the ground
    for stability. A crab robot would do well to copy any or all of these strategies.

    But no matter how deeply involved the PolyPEDALists get in robot design, their main focus is still
    on exploring how flesh-and-blood animals- -or chitin-and-hemolymph arthropods, to be more
    precise--move. Despite having discovered the first airborne running ant, for example, Kram is
    convinced that ants don't have to leave the ground to run. He thinks they, like crabs and humans,
    may be able to imitate Groucho Marx. To prove his hypothesis, he's going to have to design the most
    sensitive force plate yet; an ant weighs a thousandth of an ounce. But when he's done, chances are
    this research, like much of the other work that goes on in the PolyPEDAL lab, will uncover even more
    hidden similarities between ants and ourselves.

    "I think what our research has said is that evolution is constrained," says Full. "There are not an
    infinite number of ways to move, even though they can look very different. To say that a model of a
    pogo stick could apply to this kind of diversity--I can tell you, I never would have believed it
    unless I'd collected the data myself."

    ‹ September 1994

    DISCOVER Vol. 22 No. 7 (July 2001) discover.comfeatphysics.html

    The Physics of Walking: Falling Forward Why humans move like an imperfect pendulum By Robert Kunzig

    In what one can only assume is Giovanni Cavagna's funniest home video, Cavagna, a jolly physiologist
    from the University of Milan, is standing in an aviator suit in the passenger compartment of an
    Airbus A-300. The plane, operated by the European Space Agency, has been cleared of its seats and
    filled with scientific gear. Cavagna is grinning and holding a pendulum, which is swinging at a
    steady pace. Next to him, his friend and longtime collaborator Norman Heglund is pacing steadily
    back and forth on a 10-foot-long platform. The plane is cruising at 30,000 feet or so over the Bay
    of Biscay, off Bordeaux, France. NASA has a similar plane called the Vomit Comet.

    Abruptly, the Airbus starts to climb- so steeply that the horizon outside goes almost vertical.
    Normally at this point the pilot would jam the stick forward and throttle the engines way back,
    sending the plane over the top of its parabola and into a screaming dive. For 20 seconds or so, we
    would see Cavagna et al. floating around the padded compartment in zero gravity. This time, however,
    the pilot throttles back gravity to only 40 percent of its terrestrial value- to around what it is
    on Mars. Cavagna stays on his feet, but his pendulum starts swinging in long, slow, sloppy arcs. On
    the platform Heglund is now taking long, slow, floating steps. "You feel beautiful at .4 g," Cavagna
    says. "Walking on Mars would be great."

    Walking on Earth, Cavagna says, is a bit of a struggle- and so is trying to understand the physics
    of it. Cavagna's Airbus experiments are but the latest in a long series; he has been studying our
    awkward form of locomotion for nearly 40 years. Very early on he figured out our basic strategy: To
    save energy, we walk like a pendulum. The problem is we do it badly.

    A pendulum is a device that transforms kinetic energy of motion into gravitational potential energy
    and back. As it moves through the bottom of its arc, the pendulum's velocity and thus its kinetic
    energy- mass times velocity squared divided by two, or mv 2/2- reach a maximum. At the top of its
    arc, the pendulum slows to a stop, but at that point the potential energy- mass times gravity times
    height- is at its peak. As the pendulum falls back down, potential energy is converted back to
    kinetic energy. In a good pendulum the conversion is close to 100 percent, with only a bit of energy
    lost to the friction of moving through the air and that of the bearing from which it is hung. One
    nudge, and a pendulum keeps swinging a long time.

    With each step you walk, you yourself become an inverted pendulum: You pivot around the foot that's
    on the ground, as if you were using that leg to pole-vault, and your center of mass, somewhere in
    the belly, describes an arc. As you plant a foot on the ground in front of you, the ground exerts a
    force back up your leg that slows you down, and you continue slowing as you rise up on that foot to
    the top of your arc. At that point your kinetic energy is at a minimum- but your potential energy is
    at a maximum. As you fall forward into the next step, that stored potential energy is converted back
    into kinetic energy, and you accelerate again.

    "If the body were a perfect pendulum- if it could convert the kinetic energy into potential energy
    and back without wasting a calorie- walking would be nearly effortless," says Heglund, a
    physiologist at the University of Louvain in Belgium. "But you're only 65 percent of a perfect
    pendulum." In other words, 35 percent of the energy for each step has to be supplied afresh from the
    food you burn. Fish and birds do better: They burn less energy per unit distance than we do, even
    though birds are fighting gravity all the time, and fish have to fight their way through a dense
    liquid. "So why are we sweating? Where's the work?" asks Cavagna. "It's work we're doing against
    ourselves. It's a lack of coordination."

    Somewhere in our legs, muscles are pulling against one another, wasting energy as heat. Even after
    four decades Cavagna is not sure where the waste happens- but he does know at what point in the
    stride. The tip-off came from some experiments that he, Heglund, and Heglund's Louvain colleague
    Patrick Willems did with women from Kenya.

    Women of the Kikuyu and Luo tribes have a remarkable ability: They can carry on their head a basket
    of produce that weighs as much as 70 percent of their body. Heglund tried to match the feat, wearing
    a bicycle helmet filled with lead shot; he only got up to 15 percent of his body weight. "When that
    much weight gets out of balance, it feels like it's going to rip your head off," he explains.

    The African women's most surprising prowess, though, is that they can carry as much as 20 percent of
    their weight with no extra effort- that is, without using more oxygen and burning more calories than
    when they carry nothing. Puzzled, the researchers had the women walk on a platform that records the
    forces exerted by the feet, and thus the kinetic and potential energy at each point of the stride.

    There is one point, Cavagna's team found, at which load-bearing Kenyan women do far better than the
    rest of us. As we move through the top of one stride and start to fall into the next one, most of us
    pause imperceptibly for a few milliseconds: We're falling and losing potential energy, but we're not
    yet converting it to increased speed, because muscles in our leg are contracting and fighting the
    fall. The Kenyan women do the same thing when they're not carrying a load. But put a heavy weight on
    their head, and somehow they are able to shorten or even eliminate this pause- and thus to convert
    more of their potential energy into forward motion rather than muscle heat. With no visible change
    in their gait, their conversion rate rises from 65 percent to as much as 80 percent. In other words,
    they become better pendulums. Unfortunately, they have no idea how they do it.

    For most people, the optimum walking speed- the speed at which our kinetic energy is in balance with
    our potential energy- is around 3 miles per hour. But short legs slow a walker down, and so does low
    gravity. On Mars, at .4g, you would glide along, lifting your legs more easily than you do on Earth
    and thus exerting less at any given speed. But you wouldn't be able to walk as fast because you
    would be falling much more slowly into each new step. On the moon, at around .17 g, in order for
    your kinetic energy to balance your minuscule potential energy, you would have to walk so slowly
    that you would hardly move forward at all. In 1969, when Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin took their
    giant leaps for mankind, Cavagna wasn't at all surprised to see them bouncing (a kind of running)
    rather than walking. He had predicted as much in 1964.

    The Airbus results teach one potentially useful lesson, Cavagna says: For a manned mission to Mars,
    spacecraft designers might consider pegging their artificial gravity not at 1 g but at the agreeable
    .4 g of their destination. Certainly they shouldn't choose 1.5 g's, which the Airbus pilot
    re-created for Cavagna's group by flying steeply banked circles. You walk faster in 1.5 g's, but you
    feel, well, surprisingly heavy. "You pick up your foot and start to fall forward, and you think
    you're going to fall on your nose," Heglund says. The video shows Cavagna jerking along like Charlie
    Chaplin and looking none too stable.

    The next time Cavagna rides the Airbus, he plans to take 1.5 g's at a run; it will be like running
    with a backpack loaded with half his ample body weight. At age 67 and with a bad back, he is defying
    doctors to forbid him. "I'm not doing this because it's useful," Cavagna says. "I'm doing it because
    it's amusing."

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    RELATED WEB SITES:

    For a discussion of earlier research on the walking of Kenyan women, see Biomechanics Watch by Carl
    Zimmer, in Discover's August 1995 issue; this article is available at www.discover.com.

  16. Roger Hunter said:

    "Ed Prochak" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...


    []

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    No? thought so.

    Once again, you were incorrect.

    Okay, I will grant that you thought about your position, even though I think it's wrong. But we'll
    get to that.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    There may be factors that an individual cannot change in their form, but there are clearly poor
    ways to run and better ways to run.

    No, seriously, there are *no* poor ways to run. Style doesn't matter, unless you're on some quest
    for the ultimate efficiency in human movement - and even then you have to be very careful about
    what you propose.

    BuzzzzT! WRONG.

    There are clearly ways of running that are poor in the sense that they lead to injuries. Speed is
    not the only factor to consider here. If you really were a doctor, I would have thought you'd
    consider that.

    Quoted message said:


    I would no more think of going up to a fellow runner to comment on a style that - to my eyes -
    looked 'poor', than I would offer comment on the way evolution had determined the shape of his
    nose. It's that way for a reason. You may not understand it, I may not understand it, but nature
    has its reasons.

    I do not go over and make suggestions to other runners. I do ask for suggestions. And there are
    posters in this group that ask. Given the limits of this medium (text), we try to provide the best
    suggestions we can.

    I cannot change the shape of my nose by training, but I can adjust my running style in many
    different ways. Evolution does not work over the lifetime of an individual, but over many
    generations. However, Training can produce changes in an individual. Are the changes instantaneous?
    Not likely. Can you achieve these changes without suggestions from others? Sure, how do you think
    the best ways to compete in any sport came about, someone tried something different that worked.
    What I and others are saying is that having more information on what changes can work can speed your
    improvements.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    The one general principle common to human beings is the ability to adapt and learn. None

    of us

    Quoted message said:

    does anything in the most optimal manner the first time.

    No. But we do it in the most natural manner. And, left to our own devices, we will improve that
    activity in the manner that is most natural to us. Running is NOT a learned activity in the sense
    that calculus is. It's a learned activity in the same category as breathing, talking, singing and
    dancing. It's an activity that we make our own by imparting our unique human and physiological
    characteristics.

    I don't say this often, but this deserves it: [censored]

    You are not born running. you learn to run, exactly like you learn mathematics. We are born with a
    few fundamental "skills" that are automatic: breathing, nursing, grasping, and a few others. We
    learn how to adapt and develop these into more complex behaviors as we grow. Look up the work of
    Seymour Papert. It may be a little dated, but he demonstrateed exactly this principle of human
    development.

    Quoted message said:


    I dance like a bumble bee. I look pretty sad. But it's *my* dance, and I'm comfortable with it.
    Maybe - this is a BIG maybe - one day it will be fashionable, and the world will beat a path to my
    door to learn the steps. But if you'd forced me to learn to foxtrot, the world would have lost the
    possibility of learning the bumble bee from me.

    You skill must be very limited if in learning the foxtrot you forget how to do the bumblebee.

    Quoted message said:

    Point being, there's enough space in the world not only to allow, but to celebrate, variation in
    every human activity.

    Agreed. That's part of the reason we let you in here.

    Quoted message said:

    If someone is happy landing with a sickening thud on their heels, then let them. If they get
    injured, you can point out where the problem may be occurring, but don't go looking to correct
    problems that may never arise.

    Given your social skills, I can see why this is not a good idea for you. And while I have seldom
    given uninvited advice, I have pointed out things politely. if I run with someone that has a clearly
    visible form problem, I might bring it up in the conversation. I don't just shout "your form is all
    wrong". It would be silly to walk up to an unknown runner and point out areas to improve. But if
    someone asks me, or the runner is someone I train or race with regularly, or the runner is someone I
    know through other channels, then there is an opening in the lines of communication.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Live and learn.

    Live and let live.

    Roger.

    I still say, learn, but maybe differently:

    If you're not learning, then you are not living.

    Enjoy.

    --
    Ed Prochak running: faqs.orgrunning faq family:
    web.magicinterface.com~collins
    --
    "Two roads diverged in a wood and I I took the one less travelled by and that has made all the
    difference." robert frost

  17. Ed Prochak said:
    Quoted message said:

    It's an activity that we make our own by imparting our unique human and physiological
    characteristics.

    I don't say this often, but this deserves it: [censored]

    You are not born running. you learn to run, exactly like you learn mathematics.

    Not quite. Mathematics is abstract; if my right ankle is a little "loose", it won't affect my
    ability to learn maths. It will however considerably change my perception of pressures when pushing
    on that foot.

    This in turn will change the way I run. I'm not talking theory here, it actually applies to me. The
    foot doctor looked at me running on the treadmill and said that I had a problem in my right ankle.
    Turned out he was right and there's far too much "play" in the joint.

    Same thing applies to differing leg lengths, hip joints, bio mechanical problems of all kinds,falls
    when a toddler, ...

    Even tooth decay can have a serious effect on running because it can cause tendonitis in
    some people.

    However I can buy the "bad running form" idea for those who have not had significant amounts of
    physical activity during their childhood. They just didn't get round to learning yet.

  18. Quoted message said:

    Quit being an ass, Roger. Ozzie provides excellent information and advice to this newsgroup.


    Ozzie certainly does. And he also shows rare good taste and patience with some of the handicapped.

    However, there are many unanswered questions regarding the different theories and the lore of
    running. For example,

    1. Why do most elite runners, of which we all have videos to play in slow motion, use a heel strike
    in longer and even not so long events?

    2. The advice we have, about reducing foot slap, noise, bounce, overstriding, leaning?, leg
    turnover?, knee flex, etc. are probably on the mark. However, they do not require or even
    justify a ball-heel sequence. One can run very quietly with all of the different types of
    footstrike. Why impose a ball-heel requirement?

    3. Why do we not have direct or indirect participation in this discussion by biomechanicists who
    can take the "theory" beyond the "lore" level? Or, reference to credible references? At the
    level of discussion to date, good intentions aside, we might as well be debating the merits of
    snake oil.

    4. If a runner achieves ball-heel form for LSD, and if this almost insures a quiet form, was this a
    best approach? How many will try? Of those who try, how many will succeed? Why add this major
    hurdle to the already ambitious goal of a beginner? Since we know other approaches work fine,
    why this one?

  19. Roger Hunter said:

    "Ed Prochak" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

    Edward, I took just over half an hour this morning to write a comprehensive reply to you post.
    When I re-read it before posting, and it became clear to me that you hadn't applied one iota of
    considered thought to my original post, you had simply presented me with another version of your
    opinions.

    Hmm, let me review my post, paraphrasing to keep it short.

    you said "there are *no* poor ways to run. Style doesn't matter"

    I pointed out that this has been discussed that form/style can matter, injuries may result. I said
    clearly you were wrong on this point. As proof of my contention, I will merely point out the many
    questions about injuries in this very news group.
    -----------------

    you said changing style was like changing your nose.

    I said, training can effect changes in style, but training cannot effect changes in nasal
    appearance.
    ---------------------------

    you said "Running is NOT a learned activity in the sense that calculus is."

    I disagreed and pointed out a reference to a researcher on the subject of learning. I do have some
    training in Education and this was an area of intersest of mine. We human beings learn by adapting
    the current skills we have to meet new situations. This is true in both physical and mental areas.
    ---------------------------

    ---------------------------
    skipping the dance comments. We agree on the benefit of diversity. 8^)
    ---------------------------

    You said "don't go looking to correct problems that may never arise"

    I basically said I don't, but that I do make some unsolicited suggestions with folks I'm familiar
    with. I commented that is similar to the approach we take in this NG.

    ---------------------------

    Quoted message said:

    I'm happy to engage in debate when there's the remotest possibility that my opponent may learn
    something from the exchange but clearly, in this instance, that possibility does not exist. Oz I
    can stomach, 'cause I know that there's a possibility that I might open the slightest crack of
    doubt in some corner of his mind, as he may in mine. You, on the other hand, are empowered with
    the conviction and insight of a Donald Rumsfeld. And we all know where that leads...

    Roger.

    I implied with my closing comment that I'm willing to learn. I enjoy a spirited debate. I gave
    some evidence of my views. Would you be kind enough to provide some evidence of your views to
    enlighten me?

    (You really should have saved a draft of that post.)

    --
    Ed Prochak running: faqs.orgrunning faq family:
    web.magicinterface.com~collins
    --
    "Two roads diverged in a wood and I I took the one less travelled by and that has made all the
    difference." robert frost

  20. Roger Hunter said:

    "Ed Prochak" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    (You really should have saved a draft of that post.)

    If I'd any intention of continuing to participate in your monologue, I may have done so. As I
    haven't, I didn't.

    Did you have a pleasant weekend? Mine was 'OK', although somewhat unsuccessful in that my kids
    were unable to teach me the front crawl (all I can do is a slow breaststroke). I *hate* the idea
    of swimming face down, and I simply can't get to grips with the idea of side breathing. I guess
    I'll have to bite the bullet one day and sign up for a 'Total Immersion' swimming group.

    One thing that did impress me was the speed and distance for effort expended you can achieve with
    the crawl. I could swim about 20m on one breath in half the time I take with the breaststroke.
    This would make a reasonable placing in a triathlon a distinct possibility, if only I could get
    over my difficulties with head position and breathing. I guess we're all afraid of something :-)

    Roger.

    Okay, no debate today. Weekend was okay. Busy saturday with coaching (volleyball). Sunday rain and
    cold so I didn't run. I should have because today is supposed to be worse: snow! Well actually
    running in cold and snow is nicer than in cold and rain.

    I can relate to your swimming dilema. I prefer doing a leasurely backstroke so that my face is out
    of the water. Mike can enjoy his Tri's. To me, swimming is for relaxation, not racing.

    Enjoy.

    --
    Ed Prochak running: faqs.orgrunning faq family:
    web.magicinterface.com~collins
    --
    "Two roads diverged in a wood and I I took the one less travelled by and that has made all the
    difference." robert frost

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