$himano/Campy price difference

in message <[email hidden]>, Mark
Thompson

('pleasegivegenerously@warmmail*_turn_up_the_heat_to_reply*.com') said:

So you want integrated brake/shift levers on your road bike.
Campagnolo'll chuck you some Xenon ones for £50 (or Mirage for £60),
with Shimano bottom-
of-the-range Sora you're paying nearly £100! Why the difference, or
rather, why isn't Shimano sevicing the budget end of the market?

I know modern Soras can be used to control flightdeck computers, so
have a bit more in the way of internal gubbins, but anyone know if
there is any practical difference in shifting between the two?

Yes. With Campag, you can shift either way one or many gears at once.
With Shimano, at least at the Sora end, you can't. With Campag, you can
trim the front mech; with Shimano you can't. With Campag, you can get
any of the parts of the lever mechanism as spares, and you can service
and repair the levers; with Shimano, you can't.

Also, subjectively, Campag are more comfortable in the hand, at least for
my rather small hands.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

X-no-archive: No, I'm not *that* naive.

Simon Brooke said:

Yes. With Campag, you can shift either way one or many gears at once.

ISTR this isn't true of Xenon.

Also for the OP, you choice is really decided by what your existing
drive train is, unless you want to replace the whole lot.

Arthur

--
Arthur Clune

in message <[email hidden]>, Arthur Clune

(') said:

Simon Brooke said:

Yes. With Campag, you can shift either way one or many gears at once.

ISTR this isn't true of Xenon.

Also for the OP, you choice is really decided by what your existing
drive train is, unless you want to replace the whole lot.

At least in the lower groupsets it's cheaper to replace the lot with
Campagnolo than to get Shimano shifters. I priced it for my partner's
bike recently, and was surprised - particularly as I perceive Campag as
being a lot more up-market in quality and usability terms than Shimano.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; If you're doing this for fun, do what seems fun. If you're
;; doing it for money, stop now.
;; Rainer Deyke

Mark Thompson said:

So you want integrated brake/shift levers on your road bike.
Campagnolo'll chuck you some Xenon ones for £50 (or Mirage for £60),
with Shimano bottom- of-the-range Sora you're paying nearly £100!
Why the difference, or rather, why isn't Shimano sevicing the budget
end of the market?

They are, Shimano regard £100 as a budget price! Look at the price of the
high-end STIs. I can only assume STIs are more expensive to make than
Ergos. The rest of the Sora kit is cheap.

Quoted message said:

I know modern Soras can be used to control flightdeck computers, so
have a bit more in the way of internal gubbins,

Not just that, the whole mechanism is more intricate, I think, with more
and smaller and fiddlier parts. Mirage has gubbins for the ErgoBrain
computer anyway (not a lot of gubbins required for that, actually).

Quoted message said:

but anyone know if
there is any practical difference in shifting between the two?

Xenon and Mirage are 9-speed, Sora is 8-speed; the body and lever shapes
are different; operation is different. To shift to smaller sprockets,
Sora and Campag has a thumb button, higher Shimano models use lever behind
brake lever. Campag shifts to larger sprockets with lever behind brake
lever.

I've not tried Xenon Ergos, but the other Ergos have a stiffer action than
Shimano's but can shift to more than one smaller sprocket in one go; the
front derailleur is also trimmable. These last two points (at least) are
not applicable to Xenon.

Ergonomics is important, so it's best to get your hands on the two brands
before deciding between them.

Quoted message said:

Thinking of going STI on my hack (fed up of downtube shifters) but
it's kinda making sense to go budget campy now.

Thinking about compatibility with the other components, how many gears
does the bike have now?

~PB

Arthur Clune said:

Simon Brooke said:

Yes. With Campag, you can shift either way one or many gears at once.

ISTR this isn't true of Xenon.

Nor will it be for any model but Record next year, according to
www.campyonly.com/rumors.html !! :-(

~PB

in message <[email hidden]>, Pete Biggs

(') said:

Arthur Clune said:

Simon Brooke said:

Yes. With Campag, you can shift either way one or many gears at once.

ISTR this isn't true of Xenon.

Nor will it be for any model but Record next year, according to
www.campyonly.com/rumors.html !! :-(

Wierd. I suppose there'll be a reason, but that does seem to me a step
backwards. However he says it's a very light action to click down.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

((DoctorWho)ChristopherEccleston).act();
uk.co.bbc.TypecastException: actor does not want to be typecast.
[adapted from autofile on /., 31/03/05]

Simon Brooke said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Yes. With Campag, you can shift either way one or many gears at
> once.

ISTR this isn't true of Xenon.

Nor will it be for any model but Record next year, according to
www.campyonly.com/rumors.html !! :-(

Wierd. I suppose there'll be a reason, but that does seem to me a step
backwards. However he says it's a very light action to click down.

I suspect the other reasons are to save weight, decrease or zero
maintenance, and improve precision.

~PB

Quoted message said:

can shift to more than one smaller sprocket in one
go; the front derailleur is also trimmable. These last two points (at
least) are not applicable to Xenon.

Hmm, an extra tenner'll get me the next model up - seems worth it for the
trimming.

Quoted message said:

Thinking about compatibility with the other components, how many gears
does the bike have now?

Five gears, so may need cold setting. Alternatively could get an equally
heavy frame with the correct spacing for just a few quid if I look about a
bit. Having said that could probably get a whole bike with similar stuff
for not much more than I'd be spending. Still, it'd be fun.

Simon Brooke said:

Yes. With Campag, you can shift either way one or many gears at once.
With Shimano, at least at the Sora end, you can't.

Everything above Sora shifts down up to three at a time, but only one
at a time going up. That said, the upshifts are so easy and rapid it is
a total non-issue. In fact, I prefer it to Campy, because there is no
risk of shifting the wrong number of cogs.

Quoted message said:

With Campag, you can
trim the front mech; with Shimano you can't.

Partially true. Shimano (at least on 105 and above) has two positions
on each of the two largest rings in the triple (haven't played with a
double for a while). If you use all Shimano drivetrain components with
the correct geometry of frame and avoid cross-chaining, you don't need
to trim anyway. IOW, I have never found this to be an issue, but YMMV
if you want to use TA cranks or some such.

Quoted message said:

With Campag, you can get
any of the parts of the lever mechanism as spares, and you can service
and repair the levers; with Shimano, you can't.

OTOH, ISTR that Campy recommends that you service their levers rather
often and replace quite a few bob's worth of little springs. 105 and
above Shimano levers generally just work for years in my experience.

Quoted message said:

Also, subjectively, Campag are more comfortable in the hand, at least for
my rather small hands.

And Shimano for my large ones.

But all of these things are really just hair-splitting. I think they're
both good and most folk can get on well with either, so don't worry too
much about the decision either way.

I am hoping the new SRAM and FSA road groups will also be good -
competition is a wonderful thing! Dunno why I care though, though, as
it seems increasingly unlikely I will ever be able to ride an upright
again (and far from clear that a 'bent will work for me either, even if
I had the money to spend on one). :-(

--
Peter Headland

Mark Thompson said:

Quoted message said:

can shift to more than one smaller sprocket in one
go; the front derailleur is also trimmable. These last two points
(at least) are not applicable to Xenon.

Hmm, an extra tenner'll get me the next model up - seems worth it for
the trimming.

To be fair, I forgot that the Xenon front shifter does have some sort of
crude trim function, but it's not as fine as Mirage's. With Mirage
there'll be more chance of getting any old chainset, non standard rings
and front mech working together without having to worry so much about
perfect cable tension and derailleur alignment.

~PB

Peter Headland said:

OTOH, ISTR that Campy recommends that you service their levers rather
often and replace quite a few bob's worth of little springs. 105 and
above Shimano levers generally just work for years in my experience.

Maybe they do, but in practice everyone just uses them until they
break (years) and then get them mended.

Arthur

--
Arthur Clune