Hill training ala Lydiard

I never have, but I kind of doubt that adhering to this scientifically
precise formula for hill work is going to be any more benficial than
simply running up and down some hills.

Dot said:

Has anyone tried or read any results / comparative papers about hill
training, Lydiard style (or at least it seems to be attributed to

him)?

Quoted message said:

http://www.fitnesssports.com/lyd_clinic_guide/lydpg11.html
http://www.chicagoaa.com/features/speedplaylydiard03.html
From the above 2 links, it looks like they did this:

1. Warmup 15 min
2. Spring (focus on ankle extension) up 30% hill (200-300 m hill,
although his interview suggests they used 800 m)
3. Recovery jog for 3 min at top
4. Run downhill with "fast relaxed striding action"
5. Windsprints at the base of hill (200-400m) but no more than every

15

Quoted message said:

min (depends on size of course).

Repeat 2-5 for about an hour.
If you can find a gentler hill for the downhill and run a 4-sided

route,

Quoted message said:

it works better and is safer.

It's basically using body weight up the hill for resistance training

by

Quoted message said:

springing up 30% hills (emphasis on ankle extension to raise center

of

Quoted message said:

gravity, rather than forward motion).

I've noticed a couple people on r.r indicated they were going to try

it,

Quoted message said:

but I never saw any followup reports (or maybe I didn't look hard

enough).

Quoted message said:

I think I would focus on the uphill springing first (maybe a 20%

hill,

Quoted message said:

but definitely not less than 10% or you lose the value of the hill),

and

Quoted message said:

might shorten it to something I could do without killing myself if
needed. Do it maybe once every other week or so, not 3x a week like

they

Quoted message said:

did. And maybe sometime later, if at all, add the wind sprints. I can

Quoted message said:

see the value of the wind sprints for leg speed and anaerobic work,

but

Quoted message said:

in the short term, they might detract from the hill work - at least

for

Quoted message said:

me. I'm thinking of warm weather-type drill when things are nice and
flexible.

Questions:

1. Does the hill springing provide substantial benefits over just
running up similar sized hills? (I'm thinking it does, but what do I

know)

Quoted message said:

2. Are the windsprints providing a running start on the hill or is

their

Quoted message said:

intention to work on leg speed and anaerobic conditioning? (I'm

thinking

Quoted message said:

all those aspects)

3. How would this compare with horizontal resistance? In class, we've

Quoted message said:

been using harnesses and a U pulley system teamed with a partner. One

Quoted message said:

runs, the other resists. It's equivalent to running head on in a
50-70mph wind. I've noticed other places may use about a 15 lb weight

in

Quoted message said:

a sled - this is way more resistance than that. We end up leaning
forward, which I don't think is good form, but there might be some
benefit. (I'm thinking the vertical resistance makes more sense for
hills, which is my concern; not sure how they compare for horizontal

speed.)

Quoted message said:

I'm primarily just looking for another training tool for tool chest,
esp. one that might improve hill running and could be done in a

shorter

Quoted message said:

trail segment than what I usually run (to conditions when some trails

Quoted message said:

might be in good condition and others in poor).

I'm just curious since I've gotten a lot of gains out of the way I've
been running hills - basically just running them in various sizes and
configurations - esp. this last summer, and there's a lot more
variations out there waiting for me. I usually run them as

aerobically

Quoted message said:

as I can, although that may be close to 90% max hr on bigger hills.

This

Quoted message said:

will probably always be my main training since I like the variation.

But

Quoted message said:

I've noticed a definite spring (just kinda happened) on some of my

hills

Quoted message said:

and on some of the xt drills in class. Some of the better runners

that

Quoted message said:

I've been around lately seem to have better ankle extension more
consistently than I do, so this seemed like a logical type drill.

Anyway, just thought I'd see what people's thoughts were as far as
benefits are concerned - or whether diversity is the only thing it

offers.

Quoted message said:

Thanks for thoughts and/or documentation of responses to this type

training.

Quoted message said:

As a side note, this page makes an interesting observation on hill
sprints up 30% slopes.
http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0904.htm

Dot

--

The goal is training and adaptation, not destruction and injury.
- John Hardy
http://www.mountainrunning.coolrunning.com.au/misc/training.shtml

Dot said:

Has anyone tried or read any results / comparative papers about hill
training, Lydiard style (or at least it seems to be attributed to
him)?

Yes, I did a modified version when I had a hilly race coming up. I ran my
best ever 10k on a hilly course on Catalina (beating several Nike Athletics
West runners) after this training.

Quoted message said:

1. Warmup 15 min

Yup.

Quoted message said:

2. Spring (focus on ankle extension) up 30% hill (200-300 m hill,
although his interview suggests they used 800 m)

Nope--changed this. Too much stress on the Achilles, which I'd injured
previously.
I simply ran up a 2 1/2 minute hill hard (just under leg burn, fast and
smooth).

Quoted message said:

3. Recovery jog for 3 min at top

Yup.

Quoted message said:

4. Run downhill with "fast relaxed striding action"

I ran back down (on soft but fast dirt trail) fast (< 4:45/mile). Took
about same time.

Quoted message said:

5. Windsprints at the base of hill (200-400m) but no more than every
15 min (depends on size of course).

I did 2 x 200m at the bottom, after recovering from the downhill.

Quoted message said:

Repeat 2-5 for about an hour.

I did 4 reps (up,jog,down, 2x200).

Quoted message said:

If you can find a gentler hill for the downhill and run a 4-sided
route, it works better and is safer.

I found a perfect loop course, with the downhill soft, more gradual and
longer than the uphill.

Quoted message said:

It's basically using body weight up the hill for resistance training
by springing up 30% hills (emphasis on ankle extension to raise
center of gravity, rather than forward motion).

Springing would get me into the Achilles ward, for sure, I never did it!

Quoted message said:

I think I would focus on the uphill springing first (maybe a 20% hill,
but definitely not less than 10% or you lose the value of the hill),
and might shorten it to something I could do without killing myself if
needed. Do it maybe once every other week or so, not 3x a week like
they did.

As I did it, this was about 24 minutes of hard work (actual speed), which is
quite a lot of work. I was running 90+ mpw at the time, so I could handle
it. I don't recommend more than 10-15 minutes of speed for people who run
45-50 mpw.

Quoted message said:

Questions:

1. Does the hill springing provide substantial benefits over just
running up similar sized hills? (I'm thinking it does, but what do I
know)

Never did it, but I raced well on hills anyway, beating folks who were
faster than me on the flats.

Quoted message said:

2. Are the windsprints providing a running start on the hill or is
their intention to work on leg speed and anaerobic conditioning? (I'm
thinking all those aspects)

I recovered from them fully (125 pulse) before heading uphill again.

Quoted message said:

3. How would this compare with horizontal resistance? In class, we've
been using harnesses and a U pulley system teamed with a partner. One
runs, the other resists. It's equivalent to running head on in a
50-70mph wind. I've noticed other places may use about a 15 lb weight
in
a sled - this is way more resistance than that. We end up leaning
forward, which I don't think is good form, but there might be some
benefit. (I'm thinking the vertical resistance makes more sense for
hills, which is my concern; not sure how they compare for horizontal
speed.)

If you're training to pull a sled across town, that's a good workout.
Otherwise, I favor training specificity. Find a real hill, not someone
pulling on you.

Quoted message said:

I'm primarily just looking for another training tool for tool chest,
esp. one that might improve hill running and could be done in a
shorter trail segment than what I usually run (to conditions when
some trails might be in good condition and others in poor).

I think this is a good workout because it combines interval-type training,
uphill speed&strength, with downhill speed. And you don't need miles of
trail to do it...

Quoted message said:

Some of the better runners that
I've been around lately seem to have better ankle extension more
consistently than I do, so this seemed like a logical type drill.

Running a short (2-3 minute) hill fast will give you the technique you want,
imo.

Also, the uphill was about a 5-6% grade, not so steep that I couldn't get
some leg speed going.

-- Dan

Dan Stumpus said:

Quoted message said:

2. Spring (focus on ankle extension) up 30% hill (200-300 m hill,
although his interview suggests they used 800 m)

Nope--changed this. Too much stress on the Achilles, which I'd injured
previously.
I simply ran up a 2 1/2 minute hill hard (just under leg burn, fast and
smooth).

I agree with Dan.

The point of the hill is that it needs to be steep enough to force you up onto
the balls of your feet. 30% is a huge overkill. 20% is already plenty -- it's
impossible or allmost impossible to go up a 20% grade landing heel-striking or
midfoot-striking.

Quoted message said:

I ran back down (on soft but fast dirt trail) fast (< 4:45/mile). Took
about same time.

Never tried running the downs, but would consider it if the grade was gentle.

IMO a downhill grade of more than about 10% is a hazard, so unless training for
a race with severe descents I'd avoid steep downhill grades.

Moderate downhill grades on the other hand are very nice (good for turnover)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It's basically using body weight up the hill for resistance training
by springing up 30% hills (emphasis on ankle extension to raise
center of gravity, rather than forward motion).

Springing would get me into the Achilles ward, for sure, I never did it!

Bounding is unnecessary anyway, but I don't see how you'd do it up a 30%
grade -- you're already spending most of your energy on elevation gain as it
is, you're not going to "drop" much on a per-step basis. By the time you're at
20% or more, you're pretty conscious of the fact that you're "climbing" as
opposed to merely "running uphill".

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

but definitely not less than 10% or you lose the value of the hill),

I've run hill reps up shallower hills than this, but the gentler hills do not
force you to run up on the balls of your foot the way a steeper grade does.
It's still pretty similar, because to run the rep quickly, you really need a
light footstrike.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and might shorten it to something I could do without killing myself if
needed.

I'd recommend going with the shorter reps. It's supposed to be a strength
workout, so keep them short and light. It's easy to get injured on this sort
of workout if the workout is too hard.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

1. Does the hill springing provide substantial benefits over just
running up similar sized hills? (I'm thinking it does, but what do I
know)

I know P Diddy's coach had him do that. Additional benefits included aching
shins.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

2. Are the windsprints providing a running start on the hill or is
their intention to work on leg speed and anaerobic conditioning? (I'm
thinking all those aspects)

Who knows.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

3. How would this compare with horizontal resistance? In class, we've

Think about the physics of it. Big differences, and lots of them. Off
the top of my head, (1) if the force is externally applied, it causes problems
like the "forward lean" you mentioned. (2) different muscle groups will get
recruited, (3) it seems problematic that the force vector is parallel to the
ground-- this will interact with the dynamics of the foot strike. (4) speaking
of which, it's not clear that you'll get the same degree of calf recruitment
that you do in hill running.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm primarily just looking for another training tool for tool chest,
esp. one that might improve hill running and could be done in a
shorter trail segment than what I usually run (to conditions when
some trails might be in good condition and others in poor).

Sounds like a perfectly good one. Obviously, refining it to make it less
extreme is wise. The suggestions you (talking to Dot) are good, I'd go further
and go for a gentler gradient -- 10-15%. Or use a lot of restraint if running
up hills in the 15-20% range.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Some of the better runners that
I've been around lately seem to have better ankle extension more
consistently than I do, so this seemed like a logical type drill.

It's a good drill. I think most good runners have good "ankle extension". There
are a lot of ways one can work on that, and this is one of them.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Dan Stumpus said:

Dot said:

2. Spring (focus on ankle extension) up 30% hill (200-300 m hill,
although his interview suggests they used 800 m)

Nope--changed this. Too much stress on the Achilles, which I'd injured
previously.

This is a definite concern, but I've done a lot of specific exercises to
strengthen my feet and ankles over the last couple years.

Quoted message said:

I simply ran up a 2 1/2 minute hill hard (just under leg burn, fast and
smooth).

ok

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

3. Recovery jog for 3 min at top

Yup.

This is something I've never done before. My earlier hill work was run
up, turnaround, jog down, repeat. My recovery jog was about 60% of
uphill run. That's part of why I like just running the rolling hills -
it's not so herky, jerky. In the future, I will probably run some of the
hills harder. But right now, for many of my hills, just "doing" them is
almost the same as running them hard. I have starting to see a potential
separation though. But for my present objectives, I'm keeping things
aerobic.

<thank for other snipped comments>

Quoted message said:

As I did it, this was about 24 minutes of hard work (actual speed), which is
quite a lot of work. I was running 90+ mpw at the time, so I could handle
it. I don't recommend more than 10-15 minutes of speed for people who run
45-50 mpw.

Hmmm, lessee, I'm closer to about 10% of that. This is why I don't worry
about speed work 😉 It looks like the mods you made converted it to a
speed workout rather than the original vertical resistance, *if* I'm
understanding your descriptions correctly. I'm still focusing on
strength because the effects are longer lasting than speed work, as I
understand it - and its more directly related to my short-term goal of
just being able to run the trails more easily. That is, where I might be
huffing and puffing and have lousy form now on some of the steeper
hills, I'd like to glide up them. Ok, I can dream, but you get the idea
🙂 If I can run hills more efficiently, then I can run longer on the
same tank of gas, oops, I mean cals.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

questions:

Quoted message said:

2. Are the windsprints providing a running start on the hill or is
their intention to work on leg speed and anaerobic conditioning? (I'm
thinking all those aspects)

I recovered from them fully (125 pulse) before heading uphill again.

ok, that's good to know. The few times I've run hills repetitively
(aerobically, unless I lose control), I've just done 180's at top and
bottom. Those generally didn't have a flat to recover in.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

3. How would this compare with horizontal resistance?

If you're training to pull a sled across town, that's a good workout.
Otherwise, I favor training specificity. Find a real hill, not someone
pulling on you.

Actually, the winter ultras (not that I'm planning on doing any of them)
do use sleds to carry their gear. And we do get 50-70mph winds, although
I haven't had to deal with them in a race yet. So it's not as
non-specific as it seems, but it's not getting me toward my goal.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I think this is a good workout because it combines interval-type training,
uphill speed&strength, with downhill speed. And you don't need miles of
trail to do it...

Good point.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Some of the better runners that
I've been around lately seem to have better ankle extension more
consistently than I do, so this seemed like a logical type drill.

Running a short (2-3 minute) hill fast will give you the technique you want,
imo.

So you're basically viewing it as hill repeats with some flat
windsprints and recovery.

Quoted message said:

Also, the uphill was about a 5-6% grade, not so steep that I couldn't get
some leg speed going.

At least for me, that slope will probably be too gentle for the training
effect I'm looking for. That is appropriate for another hill workout
that I do where the slopes are probably a few percent. I can actually
run up them without changing form, and run down with increased turnover
without the fear-factor of 20-30% slopes.

Thanks for your comments.

Dot

--
The goal is training and adaptation, not destruction and injury.
- John Hardy
http://www.mountainrunning.coolrunning.com.au/misc/training.shtml

Donovan Rebbechi said:

Dan Stumpus said:

Quoted message said:

2. Spring (focus on ankle extension) up 30% hill (200-300 m hill,
although his interview suggests they used 800 m)

Nope--changed this. Too much stress on the Achilles, which I'd injured
previously.
I simply ran up a 2 1/2 minute hill hard (just under leg burn, fast and
smooth).

I agree with Dan.

The point of the hill is that it needs to be steep enough to force you up onto
the balls of your feet. 30% is a huge overkill. 20% is already plenty -- it's
impossible or allmost impossible to go up a 20% grade landing heel-striking or
midfoot-striking.

Right. Most hills on the one system, I run on forefoot. I have done and
continue to do a lot of foot / ankle strengthening because of the AT
problems I had as well as some foot / ankle strengthening my PT
suggested for some structural / functional issues I have with feet. So
I'm very conscious of injury potential, but also recognize that I've
been working on strengthening those weaknesses. Somewhere above 10%,
close to 15%, is where I start to shift more to ball of foot, based on
treadmill settings as well as real hill estimates.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I ran back down (on soft but fast dirt trail) fast (< 4:45/mile). Took
about same time.

Never tried running the downs, but would consider it if the grade was gentle.

IMO a downhill grade of more than about 10% is a hazard, so unless training for
a race with severe descents I'd avoid steep downhill grades.

The one hill (about 15-20%, maybe a little more) I have in mind for the
up is the first and last significant hill in the last race I did, so I
get to race that thing in both directions. Because of the structure of
the trail system and one-way routes in winter, if I go beyond the first
couple flat loops (99% of the time), I get to run down that sucker
*every* time I use that trail system (1-2 times / wk) -that's the only
way back. I'm getting much better at it 🙂 This system was designed by a
hs xc ski coach (he also runs, orienteers) - with steep ups then recover
on the downs.

Quoted message said:

Moderate downhill grades on the other hand are very nice (good for turnover)

Hmmm, 10% is moderate around here. Most of the trail races I'm
considering have hills in the 10-15% range, sometimes steeper, but
generally not as steep as home course. Most mountain races (I'd only
consider the easiest one) start at about 20% for the main part of the
mountain.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It's basically using body weight up the hill for resistance training
by springing up 30% hills (emphasis on ankle extension to raise
center of gravity, rather than forward motion).

Springing would get me into the Achilles ward, for sure, I never did it!

Bounding is unnecessary anyway,

I'm curious as to what you base this on. Based on my minimal experience,
I can see a lot of benefits from ankle extension - or perhaps that's
relative to the amount I'm doing now (or lack of explosiveness most of
the time). Or perhaps on longer runs (multi-hour) that form wouldn't be
used.

Quoted message said:

but I don't see how you'd do it up a 30%
grade --

That may be the difference between elites and mortals (and why I'm
probably going with something closer to 20% to start). Someplace
suggested that Lydiard's runners had a lot of injuries during this
phase. However I think they were doing it 3x / wk for a month or two.
I've read some incredible stories about mtn runners around here where
the elites just start jogging up these incredible slopes (40% comes to
mind). No, I'm not trying to imitate them, but just making an
observation that some things are perceived limitations, not true
limitations in general. And it may depend on people's goals what
weaknesses they work on as well as topography for hills.

Quoted message said:

you're already spending most of your energy on elevation gain as it
is, you're not going to "drop" much on a per-step basis. By the time you're at
20% or more, you're pretty conscious of the fact that you're "climbing" as
opposed to merely "running uphill".

Right. About 10%-15% is where I start feeling a shift from something
resembling normal running to lifting body up hill. And it's very
noticeable at 30%. The 30% downhills are also very noticeable 😉

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

but definitely not less than 10% or you lose the value of the hill),

I've run hill reps up shallower hills than this, but the gentler hills do not
force you to run up on the balls of your foot the way a steeper grade does.
It's still pretty similar, because to run the rep quickly, you really need a
light footstrike.

Right. At least based on my reading, it didn't sound like this was to be
a hill rep. He talks about lifting the body with slow forward progress.
In Martin and Coe they talk about 17% uphill for "exaggerated running
style". "The real reason for this kind of training is to build powerful
and contraollable (and therefore wondrous to behold!) hill-running
ability. Excellent form should always be the watchword; achievement of
specific paces is secondary." Of course, Coe drove his son Seb back down
to start of hill since I guess downhill training wasn't needed 😉 Or it
might have had something to do with minimizing recovery time. On my
hills that tend to be in the 20-30% range, I jogged the downhill in
about 60% of the uphill time.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and might shorten it to something I could do without killing myself if
needed.

I'd recommend going with the shorter reps. It's supposed to be a strength
workout, so keep them short and light. It's easy to get injured on this sort
of workout if the workout is too hard.

Right. The first time I try something new, I generally have an idea of
what my objective is, then test a few hills for steepness or duration
and combination thereof until I find what works for me - current
condition as well as objectives. Then I make that my protocol, at least
for a while.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

1. Does the hill springing provide substantial benefits over just
running up similar sized hills? (I'm thinking it does, but what do I
know)

I know P Diddy's coach had him do that. Additional benefits included aching
shins.

Did he do any prep before that or did he just launch into the routine?
In our xt class, some of our weekly drills include heel (ankle
extension) and toe raises done explosively (90 reps - 30 straight and to
each side) as well as some springing in some drills. Occasionally,
we'll do jumping on runway trampoline - emphasizing height with ankle
extension, rather than forward motion. In other words, I wouldn't be
doing the drill without having done ankle extension exercises
previously. I think these drills as well as the hills I normally run
have helped with a number of things. While we had the treadmill up to
15%, I tried a couple extensions and it wasn't too bad, but I should've
slowed the tm down if I wanted to test more than one of two. I can feel
a definite difference now in my hill running and the jumping compared
with 2 yr ago, but whether that's from hilll running or the xt, I don't
know - probably a mix.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

3. How would this compare with horizontal resistance? In class, we've

Think about the physics of it. Big differences, and lots of them.

Right. That's why I was wondering if I was missing anything since I'm
aware of similar drills being used in team training. Horizontal and
vertical resistance are different. We do have strong winds sometimes, so
it does prepare for that, but I don't see it helping me much with hills.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm primarily just looking for another training tool for tool chest,
esp. one that might improve hill running and could be done in a
shorter trail segment than what I usually run (to conditions when
some trails might be in good condition and others in poor).

Sounds like a perfectly good one. Obviously, refining it to make it less
extreme is wise. The suggestions you (talking to Dot) are good, I'd go further
and go for a gentler gradient -- 10-15%. Or use a lot of restraint if running
up hills in the 15-20% range.

I've got a route in mind (the steep hill is the one at start of recent
race), but I may also try some of the other hills on for size, and
probably progress from one to another. I've found that sometimes, short,
steep is easier than long, gentle, depending on what you're trying to do.

Thanks.

Dot

--
The goal is training and adaptation, not destruction and injury.
- John Hardy
http://www.mountainrunning.coolrunning.com.au/misc/training.shtml

John B. said:

I never have, but I kind of doubt that adhering to this scientifically
precise formula for hill work is going to be any more benficial than
simply running up and down some hills.

My main question was the benefits of springing, not the precise
dimensions of the route, although the slope of the hills is important.

Dot

--
The goal is training and adaptation, not destruction and injury.
- John Hardy
http://www.mountainrunning.coolrunning.com.au/misc/training.shtml

Dot dot.h@#duh?att.net said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>It's basically using body weight up the hill for resistance training
>by springing up 30% hills (emphasis on ankle extension to raise
>center of gravity, rather than forward motion).

Springing would get me into the Achilles ward, for sure, I never did it!

Bounding is unnecessary anyway,

I'm curious as to what you base this on. Based on my minimal experience,
I can see a lot of benefits from ankle extension - or perhaps that's
relative to the amount I'm doing now (or lack of explosiveness most of
the time).

The reason is that a steep hill forces you to get good at ankle extension
anyway. You already need to extend your ankle in an exaggerated way when you
climb a steep hill, because the limiting factors become turnover and altitude
gain each step -- so more powerful ankle extension means better climbing. What
bounding does is increase the amount of downward vertical motion (eccentric
ankle flexion), which adds to injury risk without (IMO) adding much else.

Quoted message said:

Or perhaps on longer runs (multi-hour) that form wouldn't be
used.

I'd think one would get tired after a few minutes of bounding anyway.

Seriously, anything where you consciously alter form should be treated the
way one treats a form drill -- keep it short and sweet to minimise risk and
maximise quality.

[snip]

Quoted message said:

Right. At least based on my reading, it didn't sound like this was to be
a hill rep. He talks about lifting the body with slow forward progress.

That's how I think of hill reps (-;

Quoted message said:

In Martin and Coe they talk about 17% uphill for "exaggerated running
style". "The real reason for this kind of training is to build powerful
and contraollable (and therefore wondrous to behold!) hill-running
ability. Excellent form should always be the watchword; achievement of
specific paces is secondary."

A noble sentiment but hard to follow strictly when training with a group of
competitive runners. Fortunately, excellent form and fast pace are not
conflicting goals.

[snip]

Quoted message said:

Did he do any prep before that or did he just launch into the routine?

Don't know. The latter is certainly plausible.

Quoted message said:

In our xt class, some of our weekly drills include heel (ankle
extension) and toe raises done explosively (90 reps - 30 straight and to
each side) as well as some springing in some drills. Occasionally,

The toe raises are a good idea. I think for very short controlled drills,
bounding is probably at least reasonably harmless. The danger that gets added
when doing "hill training" is that you're more likely to be somewhat exhausted
during a rep, whereas when you're doing form drills, you generally are not.

Quoted message said:

I've got a route in mind (the steep hill is the one at start of recent
race), but I may also try some of the other hills on for size, and
probably progress from one to another. I've found that sometimes, short,
steep is easier than long, gentle, depending on what you're trying to do.

Also probably better suited to hill workouts. If the hill is too long, the
workout turns into an interval workout and not a hill workout -- you start
battling fatigue and it's harder to concentrate on form. Of course one can
always "shorten" a hill by just running part of it.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/