Hill Technique

Assuming that you are not already at 90% effort and you aren't looking
up the side of a mountain, then to maintain pace by starting to breath
more frequently & deeper before and as you go up the hill usually gives
better results. The quicker you get to "rest" on the way down the other
side. The longer you take to get to the top of a hill the more the debt
particularly if you simply maintain your existing breathing pattern.

DadatHome said:

Been running for a year or a bit more and have a question on different
ways to climb hills. I usually will attempt to keep the same pace as
when I'm on the flats but will change my breathing rhythm - for example,
I may be breathing 4/4 on the approach to a hill and then change to a
3/3 or 2/2 or some other combination that increases the inhale/exhale
cycles. The downside to this, as I see it, is that I may overtax the leg
muscles with the effect of wearing out later in the run.

The alternative would be to slow the pace and maintain the breathing
rhythm - which shouldn't affect the rest of the run.

Is there conventional wisdom on choosing one method over the other?
Does increasing the heart rate by maintaining pace have any positive
training benefits?

One last thing. Sometimes, as I am approaching a hill that I know to be
taxing, I'll increase my breathing cycles 30 seconds or so before I
start the climb. My idea is to load more oxygen into my bloodstream
prior to needing it rather than playing catchup by increasing the
breathing cycle after I'm into the climb.

Anyone else do this or have any comments on benefits to trying this?

(Miss Anne might very well say, "That's all the world needs, a
hyperventilating dizzy jogger."😉

on bike
if 2 much strain on bike parts. with learn and real road time in.it
better to break down and just walk up the hill. then 1.
snap a chain....and others.

some time's I can just take a hill.
some times if I need to for fear or a lost of self or property. I
well and can do a hill...... were I was joke at and rib by fellow bikers
on......
both dirt lose dirt and other and cement road hills......

sometimes in endurance I factor in as all ways factor variables and
goals as to a hill. if burn is invited and not wanted.....might break
on parts of bike or just go with it and stay on the burn for a
while.......until later....and ease back some and pace.......ether
way....I don't stop........and think on what I should do...........
unless.being track and monitor.........then well look how to escape such
devises or animals human too to variables goals or just 180° and see
the probe........and move on.....

i canna live with the truth.
and I learn how to live now from the Not truth......h......sure it is
not running.
butt then it is not the gov of texas doing 125 miles with a s security
guy coming in 12emplace after there administrator pass a $500,000.00
increases on there profit to ride now on there $35,000.00 bikes....all
100 of them and kick out a 125 mile ride.....and then smile at the
camera with white white teeth and not evan have a hurt...as walking away
from the t.v. news camera.....Now that is NoN truth........
it don't happen...butt then this isn't espn..........it is rec
running....I did no make millions doing 4 mile basketball game for 100
game in a year and call me a figged............wow..400 miles and 40
million richer.
player of the week. a 20 million year player gave 300 grand to
kids.....Now that was a first time event.......

Quoted message said:

Been running for a year or a bit more>

Amazing! Aren't your legs tired? How did you sleep?

Jog up hills backwards. It tricks the brain into thinking you're
jogging downhill.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Been running for a year or a bit more>

Amazing! Aren't your legs tired? How did you sleep?

Good one. Yaknow that one never gets old.

DadatHome said:

Been running for a year or a bit more and have a question on

different

Quoted message said:

ways to climb hills. I usually will attempt to keep the same pace as
when I'm on the flats but will change my breathing rhythm - for

example,

Quoted message said:

I may be breathing 4/4 on the approach to a hill and then change to a

Quoted message said:

3/3 or 2/2 or some other combination that increases the inhale/exhale

Quoted message said:

cycles. The downside to this, as I see it, is that I may overtax the

leg

Quoted message said:

muscles with the effect of wearing out later in the run.

The alternative would be to slow the pace and maintain the breathing
rhythm - which shouldn't affect the rest of the run.

I've always believed (and 20+ years experience bears it out) that the
important thing is to maintain the same effort. If you try to maintain
the pace, for a short hill you might get away with it, but for anything
bigger than a zit you'll likely suffer later.

Quoted message said:

Is there conventional wisdom on choosing one method over the other?
Does increasing the heart rate by maintaining pace have any positive
training benefits?

Is your training structured? Do you confine your efforts to one or two
sessions per week, or do you run everywhere eyeballs out?

Hill reps are my particular favourite session...at least, I prefer them
to intervals, fartlek etc. I use a long and quiet hill, and vary the
session between 24 x 30s, 12 x 1m or 8 x 1m 30s, with jog down
recoveries. The important thing is to be at maximum effort on the up,
and really slow on the down. I wouldn't race like this, needless to
say.

Quoted message said:

One last thing. Sometimes, as I am approaching a hill that I know to

be

Quoted message said:

taxing, I'll increase my breathing cycles 30 seconds or so before I
start the climb. My idea is to load more oxygen into my bloodstream
prior to needing it rather than playing catchup by increasing the
breathing cycle after I'm into the climb.

I do the same in races, but I try not to let those around me hear the
change in breathing. Overtaking on a hill, particularly if you time it
well, can give you good position in races and can be very demoralising
for the opposition.

Quoted message said:

(Miss Anne might very well say, "That's all the world needs, a
hyperventilating dizzy jogger."😉

I believe that the good lady has already vouchsafed her pearls of
wisdom on the matter.

Edward

DadatHome said:

Been running for a year or a bit more and have a question on

different

Quoted message said:

ways to climb hills. I usually will attempt to keep the same pace as
when I'm on the flats but will change my breathing rhythm - for

example,

Quoted message said:

I may be breathing 4/4 on the approach to a hill and then change to a

Quoted message said:

3/3 or 2/2 or some other combination that increases the inhale/exhale

Quoted message said:

cycles. The downside to this, as I see it, is that I may overtax the

leg

Quoted message said:

muscles with the effect of wearing out later in the run.

The alternative would be to slow the pace and maintain the breathing
rhythm - which shouldn't affect the rest of the run.

I've always believed (and 20+ years experience bears it out) that the
important thing is to maintain the same effort. If you try to maintain
the pace, for a short hill you might get away with it, but for anything
bigger than a zit you'll likely suffer later.

Quoted message said:

Is there conventional wisdom on choosing one method over the other?
Does increasing the heart rate by maintaining pace have any positive
training benefits?

Is your training structured? Do you confine your efforts to one or two
sessions per week, or do you run everywhere eyeballs out?

Hill reps are my particular favourite session...at least, I prefer them
to intervals, fartlek etc. I use a long and quiet hill, and vary the
session between 24 x 30s, 12 x 1m or 8 x 1m 30s, with jog down
recoveries. The important thing is to be at maximum effort on the up,
and really slow on the down. I wouldn't race like this, needless to
say.

Quoted message said:

One last thing. Sometimes, as I am approaching a hill that I know to

be

Quoted message said:

taxing, I'll increase my breathing cycles 30 seconds or so before I
start the climb. My idea is to load more oxygen into my bloodstream
prior to needing it rather than playing catchup by increasing the
breathing cycle after I'm into the climb.

I do the same in races, but I try not to let those around me hear the
change in breathing. Overtaking on a hill, particularly if you time it
well, can give you good position in races and can be very demoralising
for the opposition.

Quoted message said:

(Miss Anne might very well say, "That's all the world needs, a
hyperventilating dizzy jogger."😉

I believe that the good lady has already vouchsafed her pearls of
wisdom on the matter.

Edward

<[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Hill reps are my particular favourite session...at least, I prefer them
to intervals, fartlek etc. I use a long and quiet hill, and vary the
session between 24 x 30s, 12 x 1m or 8 x 1m 30s, with jog down
recoveries. The important thing is to be at maximum effort on the up,
and really slow on the down. I wouldn't race like this, needless to
say.

......

Quoted message said:

I do the same in races, but I try not to let those around me hear the
change in breathing. Overtaking on a hill, particularly if you time it
well, can give you good position in races and can be very demoralising
for the opposition.

I recommend spending as much time on fast downhills as fast uphills. It
takes much less energy (for me at least) to gain an equal amount of time on
a downhill. Although I train hard on uphills, I don't race the uphills
offensively. It's so easy go go anerobic up hills -- they are glycogen
sinks. I focus on downhills. I will usually trip and fall before I can get
anerobic on a downhill.

I view the uphill training as putting me in position to keep up with the
competition on the way up (working easier than they are), then surge just
prior to the crest, and open it up on the way down.

Nothing heartens me more than running up a hill with someone who's breathing
harder than me, going through his glycogen stores, and knowing that I'm
going to pour it on at the crest...

I got away from fast downhill training in the buildup to my last race (a 50
miler), due to a sprained ankle and sickness, and paid for it dearly!

-- Dan

Dan Stumpus said:

I recommend spending as much time on fast downhills as fast uphills. It
takes much less energy (for me at least) to gain an equal amount of time on
a downhill.

I think I may have mentioned this before on downhill discussions, but
when I watched the World Mtn Running Trophy race in 2003, the top
runners were together at the top - a cluster of 3-6 within seconds of
each other - and the winner was alone in the finish line picture (think
he was 3rd at the top). Hang with the top ones on the up, then let it go
on the down - if you're trained on downhill - which I know you are, but
many aren't.

As you mention, the energy costs of running uphill are phenomenal, and
they're glycogen sinks. On short mtn races up here, a couple of the top
runners, can actually run 40% slopes - or at least alternate run and
walk whereas most people can only walk. And *that* is devastating - even
to just read the guy's 1st hand report of watching his competitor jog by
- esp. when you've seen pictures of that slope. But that only happens in
a short 5k (about 45 min course record), not in our local 14 miler (3+
hr) where everyone walks the uphill.

Dot

--
"Dream Big, and dare to fail." --- Norman Vaughn
who was with Byrd in Antarctica and whose 99th birthday was Dec 19, 2004

Of course going up a hill can deplete your energy quicker than going
down, but that's not necessarily the point. In terms of training,
there's little to be gained in running hard downhill but injuries. Of
course, it takes a different technique (and not one that most people
concentrate on) to run well downhill, as I know to my cost. I remember
the last time I ran the Dursley Dozen, a very hilly MT race with some
ferocious climbs, where I was constantly overtaken on the downhills by
people I'd just overtaken on the way up. Not because I was burned out
from the effort, but because I don't feel comfortable running eyeballs
out downhill.

But in training, you're going to get the most benefit from efforts up
hill with recoveries down.

Edward

<[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Of course going up a hill can deplete your energy quicker than going
down, but that's not necessarily the point. In terms of training,
there's little to be gained in running hard downhill but injuries.

A little goes a long way, just like any speedwork. Like anything in
running, you start gradually. You don't go b*lls out on day one. If you
have problems, try to solve them, and/or back off to the point where they
don't arise.

Also, despite what Donovan and other formalists say about surface hardness
being irrelevant, don't do fast downhilling on pavement -- find a smooth
dirt trail.

I used to do a 4 x (2:30 hard up, jog 2 min, 2:30 hard down, jog back to
start) workout, as suggested by Lydiard, and it was very effective. I would
also do downhill fartleks in my long runs.

As a result, I could nearly maintain my flat speedwork 440 pace for several
miles on downhills in races (about 4:45-4:50 pace). No one who was with me
at the top of a hill could stay with me. Do this workout once a week, and
you'll be racing faster on both ups and downs.

I know it worked for me courtesy of a friend had been a bit faster than me
on downhills (but didn't practice them). He was an uphill-only training
purist. After I incorporated this workout, he couldn't stay with me
anymore.

Quoted message said:

Of course, it takes a different technique (and not one that most people
concentrate on) to run well downhill, as I know to my cost. I remember
the last time I ran the Dursley Dozen, a very hilly MT race with some
ferocious climbs, where I was constantly overtaken on the downhills by
people I'd just overtaken on the way up. Not because I was burned out
from the effort, but because I don't feel comfortable running eyeballs
out downhill.

Surface is a factor. I've found that as I've gotten older that I can't fly
down rocky trails and steps with confidence, so I let the youngsters pass.
But I can still boogie down non-technical stuff.

Quoted message said:

But in training, you're going to get the most benefit from efforts up
hill with recoveries down.

Per my experience, that is not true. Or to put it another way, fast uphill
training makes you a better uphill/flat runner, and fast downhill training
makes you a better downhill/flat runner. Do both, and you'll have to rent
space to store your awards ;-)

-- Dan

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Of course going up a hill can deplete your energy quicker than going
down, but that's not necessarily the point. In terms of training,
there's little to be gained in running hard downhill but injuries.

If you are injury prone on downs thenby all means, avoid hitting them
hard. What people like Dan and myself do is to incorporate significant
downhill training. Over time you inch up and over take slow down hill
running and make them a strength.

Quoted message said:

Of
course, it takes a different technique (and not one that most people
concentrate on) to run well downhill, as I know to my cost. I
remember
the last time I ran the Dursley Dozen, a very hilly MT race with some
ferocious climbs, where I was constantly overtaken on the downhills by
people I'd just overtaken on the way up. Not because I was burned out
from the effort, but because I don't feel comfortable running eyeballs
out downhill.

But in training, you're going to get the most benefit from efforts up
hill with recoveries down.

And we are suggesting you have half the game under control. With some
downhill workouts and staying below the injury radar, you will not get
passed except for those better trained. There is two ways to slice this
onion and most people only do half. Sure, we all know that uphill
workouts are very important and rightfully correct. This includes short
hill repeats to long(1-5 mile) grinds. Dan and I both get our share of
long ups but the downs are equally important especially in long races
where quads can turn to mush.

I don't know how Dan does his downhill training, meaning all in the same
workout or separate. I like to keep them apart. One week I will run the
long pulls and jog the down. The next week I will power hike the ups and
work the downs(this is a considerably easier workout so alternating
keeps within the hard/easy philosophy) . By the time I show up race day,
I have the uphill strength and a little downhill speed. I'm not
suggesting suicide downs but a reasonable but quicker pace.

This whole discussion reminds me of when I first started running - I
hated hills. Since I live in mountainous terrain I had to either try to
find all flat races or come to grips with hills in general.

-DougF

This is not an absolute. The quads in particular are hit hard by the
down hill part, because they are being made to do two things at once,
move the leg forward and keep the body from falling over. This eccentric
motion has been found to be very benefical for training as it appears to
strengthen and "stress-proof" the legs for competition.

This is one of the reasons you hear all the negative comments about how
hard the first part of Boston and other basically down hill courses like
St George, the muscles are being asked to do what they haven't trained.

Quoted message said:

Of course going up a hill can deplete your energy quicker than going
down, but that's not necessarily the point. In terms of training,
there's little to be gained in running hard downhill but injuries. Of
course, it takes a different technique (and not one that most people
concentrate on) to run well downhill, as I know to my cost. I remember
the last time I ran the Dursley Dozen, a very hilly MT race with some
ferocious climbs, where I was constantly overtaken on the downhills by
people I'd just overtaken on the way up. Not because I was burned out
from the effort, but because I don't feel comfortable running eyeballs
out downhill.

But in training, you're going to get the most benefit from efforts up
hill with recoveries down.

Edward

DadatHome wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

Been running for a year or a bit more and have a question on different
ways to climb hills. I usually will attempt to keep the same pace as
when I'm on the flats but will change my breathing rhythm - for example,
I may be breathing 4/4 on the approach to a hill and then change to a
3/3 or 2/2 or some other combination that increases the inhale/exhale
cycles. The downside to this, as I see it, is that I may overtax the leg
muscles with the effect of wearing out later in the run.

The alternative would be to slow the pace and maintain the breathing
rhythm - which shouldn't affect the rest of the run.

For me it often depends on the length of the run and the length of the
hills. On shorter runs (<50mins), I sometimes like to power over shorter
hills. On longer runs I shorten my stride and try to maintain the same
effort (heart rate), even for relatively short hills. If my heart rate
climbs too high on a hill slow down more or walk briefly until it comes back
down. In a race your effort is misplaced powering up hills - steady effort
rules. In trail races this often means power-walking up hills.

I note the great advice elsewhere in this thread -- from Dan: attention to
downhill training; and from Doug: specific focus on long uphill training one
week, and long downhill training the next week with power hikes up.

-Tony

Quoted message said:

Of course going up a hill can deplete your energy quicker than going
down, but that's not necessarily the point. In terms of training,
there's little to be gained in running hard downhill but injuries.

Downhills, when run in training in moderation, as the others have
already mentioned, is a great injury preventer.

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0009.htm

I took advantage of this type training last year when I had reduced
summer field work. Aerobic conditioning would be somewhat lost during
field trips, but they were the appropriate recovery time between
downhill bouts. My biggest concern with not being able to do hills this
winter like I had in the past because of the lumpy, icy snow, was the
inability do get decent downhill workouts in. (although the snowshoe
race I ran in Anchorage made up for that a little)

While I still have a long way to go, my body thanks me for those
workouts building up the downhill work. There were, and still will be,
painful days as I build.

Quoted message said:

But in training, you're going to get the most benefit from efforts up
hill with recoveries down.

It depends on your running goals. Uphill training works certain muscles
and aerobic conditioning; downhill training works others - and builds
confidence. Downhill seems to work core more, but that be me and my
terrain.

I'm finding the downhill is at least as valuable as uphill training -
esp. for eccentric training. Most of my races have equal amounts of down
and up. But even aside from that, I tend to pound harder if running
faster (relative use of term, I'm not dainty) on flats - and don't
usually have firm ground to do speed work on before the spring races
(tiny bit of snow still on low-elevation trails on Sunday, and maybe 20%
was still breakup mud). The downhill training that I do - not fast - has
been really helpful to me in strengthening legs and providing
confidence. I don't barrel downhill, but in my last non-flat race, I
picked up 2 positions on the downhill (about 10% of field). I doubt that
that will happen in my next hilly race because of the duration and I
haven't had the hill work this winter like I had last.

I'm not far enough along or run enough times per week to run up and down
like some or separate my uphill and downhill like Doug, but even just
hiking up and down like TrailRunner suggested really helps. (about 15%+,
almost 2000ft, with some sharp dropoffs, snow, ice, so wasn't
appropriate for downhill running for me) I tend to run when I can, walk
when I must (like Tony describes) either because of becoming anaerobic
(uphill) or terrain (up, down). But someday I will be a little more
structured when I have the endurance and strength.

The signficance of downhill training was something I figured out pretty
quickly over the last couple of years thanks to comments here.

I didn't respond to the original thread since it was obvious he was
talking about relatively short hills in short races - ones that are
runnable, but training on big hills can be helpful also. I try to keep
constant hr effort - or close. It's not really possible on big hills
because it's hard to get hr up on the steep downs. The size of hill,
duration of run, and my conditioning affect how I approach
running/walking them during races.

Dot

--
"Dream Big, and dare to fail." --- Norman Vaughn
who was with Byrd in Antarctica and whose 99th birthday was Dec 19, 2004

I would be careful going hard downhills if you have an IT band injury.
I find that my knee tends to get very cranky with me if I try to go too
hard down hills now.