Hill Climbing & Gear Shifting

[oldbobcat]

Originally Posted by alfeng
Have YOU used Shimano STI shifters on more than a parking lot ride?

• by my recollection, you had previously indicated that your previous bike(s) did not have ANY indexed shifting, so you would have had zero miles with Shimano's STI shifters and would therefore have no personal dissatisfaction.

Seven years, man. Three with 5600, with Gossamer cranks, no less. And four with 7800. No complaints. That came after 36 years of friction.

While I've worked on different versions of Ergo, I've never done a full ride with it. I'm sure that if I did it would be enjoyable.

My only position is that Campagnolo shifters aren't essential for good shifting and that hubbubing Campy shfters to Shimano derailleurs is only for home mechanics who take full responsibility for their work. Advocating swapping shifters as a first resort is a disservice.

 

[dhk2]

Originally Posted by AyeYo


Actually, I think it's a lot more like using the clutch or at least easing off the gas while slamming the next gear home without the clutch. Any mechanically driven vehicle with a transmission that cannot engage multiple gears at once is going to shift more smoothly if power is not being applied through the shift and that applies to bikes as well. Dwell or no dwell, preceived delay or not, putting down power while the chain is only partially engaged on the driving cog is putting unnecessary strain on the drivetrain. It takes literally a fraction of a second to ease up on the torque to the crank while the chain is between cogs - and, bam, you're in the new gear without any drama.

Yes, that's the correct analogy. A lot of us have learned that motorbikes and cars can be shifted without using the clutch, just by rolling off the throttle slightly to unload the gearbox. Done correctly, it probably doesn't cause damage, and can be a lot of fun. But it's very easy to get wrong. Since we don't have clutches on our bikes, the only way we have to reduce the load and shock is to back off the pedal pressure a bit.

Back in my days of wrenching at Honda shops, I saw several gearboxes on bikes still in warranty with burnt or bent shift forks. Of course, the customer never admitted to doing anything wrong.

Thanks to alfeng, I've learned that my old DA 7700 shifts much better than I thought under low cadence, high loads. This morning coming up my hill I shifted a few times up and down while standing, from 30/24 down to 30/19 and back, 10% grade, low cadence. It worked fine, but I certainly won't make a habit of it.

 

[dhk2]

OBC, you mentioned frayed cables in your post. On the 7700, my front (triple) shifter has frayed the cable twice now, right at the head. First time was at 18K miles, when it broke coming up my home hill. Second time, I actually checked the cable at 34K miles and found the replacement had one or two strands already broken. I congratulated myself on my preventive maintenance check and replaced the cable and housing.

Other that that, I find the durability of Dura Ace 9 sp has indeed been impressive. Everything just keeps working after 10 years and almost 38K miles. If I ever do get that new bike, have to say that Shimano has certainly earned my trust. I don't mind paying more up-front to get a quality, long-lasting product, but do wonder if the new 11 speed stuff holds up as well as my old 7700. Seems the main sales push has been to ever lighter weight and more speeds, as opposed to longer-lasting chains, cassettes and components.

 

[alfeng]

Quote:Originally Posted by oldbobcat .Seven years, man. Three with 5600, with Gossamer cranks, no less. And four with 7800. No complaints. That came after 36 years of friction.
While I've worked on different versions of Ergo, I've never done a full ride with it. I'm sure that if I did it would be enjoyable.



Okay! SEVEN years with Shimano ...

• However, I'm NOT quite sure why you moved away from the 105 components if you were truly content with how it functioned ... Ditto for the subsequent move from Dura Ace if you were so satisfied with Shimano's shifting/etc. ... Of course, if you need to convince yourself-or-us that you switched only because SRAM presented you with something that was shiney-and-new ... Well, there is nothing wrong with taking the shiney Penny over the tarnished Dime ... I can certainly embrace-and-endorse cosmetic changes

I just thought you were more practical. THAT begs the question ...

• Based on your recent tendency to change components after a relatively short period of time, do you anticipate your next shifters will be SRAM or Shimano?

Quote:Originally Posted by oldbobcat .My only position is that Campagnolo shifters aren't essential for good shifting and that hubbubing Campy shfters to Shimano derailleurs is only for home mechanics who take full responsibility for their work. Advocating swapping shifters as a first resort is a disservice.


REALLY?!? Do you really think that it is so hard for someone to connect the rear derailleur cable in this manner?!?

REALLY? Well, I suppose that if a person has arthritis then s/he shouldn't do ANY work on his-or-her own bike ... Whereas I think that Chris Juden's Matrix is accessible AND I think that if someone can attach their derailleur cables correctly then they can also attach the rear derailleur cable as illustrated ...

• On the other hand, it appears that YOU are the elitist one who does not think very highly of the skills or intelligence of the people whose bikes you service. Well, you certainly see the supposedly botched outcome of bikes which others bring into your shop ... I guess that if it is as bad as can be inferred, then WE should blame our educational system. Regardless, if having "dwell"/whatever is such a good idea then WHY NOT replicate it in the Di2 shifters/derailleurs, too? Just how fragile is the Di2 drivetrain compared with a mechanical STI drivetrain as a consequence of its lack of dwell?

Alas, the bottom line is that according to the two/(three?) of you that I and a minority of others who have used Shimano shifters are hallucinating a problem which doesn't truly exist even though soft pedaling is the work-around for the supposedly non-existent problem to ensure clean shifts DESPITE the clean shifting Shimano Di2 drivetrains not replicating "dwell" even though it supposedly helps to put less stress on the drivetrain ... et cetera. BTW. I continue to contend that replacing a set of Shimano shifters with a pair of Campagnolo shifters is the LEAST EXPENSIVE and FASTEST way to overcome the problem which I perceive is engineered into Shimano's mechanical shifters which the three of you do not see as a problem ... If it makes YOU[COLOR=FF00AA]/[/COLOR](the three of you)[COLOR=FF00AA]/[/COLOR]whomever feel better, think of the Campagnolo shifter swap as being for those of us who are apparently challenged in our pedaling technique. IMO, it's a disservice to point the less informed cyclist toward more expensive group upgrades than simply replacing the shifters (whose cost will be offset with re-selling the removed Shimano shifters) OR to tell those who have experienced the negative aspects of "dwell" that the problem is with their pedaling technique when some it is, IMO, the consequence of a design feature which Shimano incorporated in their earliest-and-apparently-current mechanical STI shifters. [COLOR=FF00AA]... those who don't know, don't know ... OR, choose to not know. [/COLOR]

 

[alfeng]

Originally Posted by dhk2

Yes, that's the correct analogy. A lot of us have learned that motorbikes and cars can be shifted without using the clutch, just by rolling off the throttle slightly to unload the gearbox. Done correctly, it probably doesn't cause damage, and can be a lot of fun. But it's very easy to get wrong. Since we don't have clutches on our bikes, the only way we have to reduce the load and shock is to back off the pedal pressure a bit.

Back in my days of wrenching at Honda shops, I saw several gearboxes on bikes still in warranty with burnt or bent shift forks. Of course, the customer never admitted to doing anything wrong.

Thanks to alfeng, I've learned that my old DA 7700 shifts much better than I thought under low cadence, high loads. This morning coming up my hill I shifted a few times up and down while standing, from 30/24 down to 30/19 and back, 10% grade, low cadence. It worked fine, but I certainly won't make a habit of it.

I'm glad that I could help ...

I'm also glad that with your (apparently) Triple crankset that you are able to use a relatively close-ratio Cassette vs. the gappy-ratio Cassette that I-and-others are apparently using which tests the (possibly) more plebeian STI shifter beyond what they can accommodate efficiently ...
Of course, I'm glad that you have not & do not subsequently have to endure the phantom-for-you "dwell" which I think is the flaw of Shimano's mechanical shifters.

>>> ... those who don't know, don't know ... OR, choose to not know.

 

[dhk2]

Originally Posted by alfeng

I'm glad that I could help ...

I'm also glad that with your (apparently) Triple crankset that you are able to use a relatively close-ratio Cassette vs. the gappy-ratio Cassette that I-and-others are apparently using which tests the (possibly) more plebeian STI shifter beyond what they can accommodate efficiently ...
Of course, I'm glad that you have not & do not subsequently have to endure the phantom-for-you "dwell" which I think is the flaw of Shimano's mechanical shifters.

>>> ... those who don't know, don't know ... OR, choose to not know.

alfeng, afraid you've made yet another bad assumption to support your narrative here. What makes you think I am able to use a close-ratio cassette? I like a big gear for the Weds sprints.....usually in 53/13 or 12 sometimes. But also need to climb grades of 15% or more seated, which with my ability means I need a 27 to go with my granny 30-ring.

In fact, I use a 12-27 with my triple (53/39/30), which is about the widest Shimano 9 speed cassette I can find compatible with my 7703 GS RD. It's got gaps of 3 teeth on the 21-24-27 cogs, which is where I tried the shifting under higher loads uphill.

 

[jpr95]

I'm running an Ultegra 6700 10-speed setup. Triple front (52-39-30) and an 11-28 rear. I've shifted the bigger cogs on the rear both under extreme load (40-50 RPM uphill, mashing) and not, and there's just no discernible difference in the speed of the shift. Yes, it makes a little bit of a "crunch" noise under the loaded shift versus the virtually silent shift when not, but it's still a quick shift, even the 24-28 shift. I don't care what brand you're riding, I'm certain that the wear would be less if the drivetrain is unloaded during shifting, but not absolutely necessary for any given shift. So I try to downshift before I absolutely need to, when I'm still at a decent RPM of 80+.

BTW, Alfeng, do you write the flyers for a junk-mail company? Your posts are really tough to read...

 

[alfeng]

Quote: Originally Posted by alfeng
I'm glad that I could help ...

I'm also glad that with your (apparently) Triple crankset that you are able to use a relatively close-ratio Cassette vs. the gappy-ratio Cassette that I-and-others are apparently using which tests the (possibly) more plebeian STI shifter beyond what they can accommodate efficiently ...
Of course, I'm glad that you have not & do not subsequently have to endure the phantom-for-you "dwell" which I think is the flaw of Shimano's mechanical shifters.

>>> ... those who don't know, don't know ... OR, choose to not know.

Originally Posted by dhk2 .

alfeng, afraid you've made yet another bad assumption to support your narrative here. What makes you think I am able to use a close-ratio cassette? I like a big gear for the Weds sprints.....usually in 53/13 or 12 sometimes. But also need to climb grades of 15% or more seated, which with my ability means I need a 27 to go with my granny 30-ring.

In fact, I use a 12-27 with my triple (53/39/30), which is about the widest Shimano 9 speed cassette I can find compatible with my 7703 GS RD. It's got gaps of 3 teeth on the 21-24-27 cogs, which is where I tried the shifting under higher loads uphill.



Have I?

Have I really?

So, you don't think that 12-27 with a 3 tooth gap isn't tighter than a 12-34 with a 4 tooth gap?

No matter ...

It really doesn't matter whether you have a 12-27 or a 12-23, does it?

It doesn't matter because YOU (and others) continue to seem to think that my experience is isolated despite others inquiring about resolving the rough shifting + the soft pedaling solution + the apparent lack of "dwell" (regardless of how it is defined) on Shimano's Di2 shifters ... our clumsy experience is no doubt merely anecdotal in your mind.

I can only say that your experience is equally anecdotal and then begs the question why the need to soft pedal, et cetera.

FYI. Others have managed a larger-than-28t Cog (of course, that would be at least a 30t, and I believe 32t is the size that was often mentioned) with a standard, post-2000/(really, post-1998) Shimano Road rear derailleur by adjusting the B-screw ...

Regardless, I have stated numerous times that you can bump that up to 34t by simply swapping the 11t upper pulley wheel with a 10t pulley wheel.

• AGAIN, I would probably recommend MicroShift shifters, too, as an alternative to Shimano's STI shifters if I had ever tried a pair of MicroShift shifters and had a sense of their durability ...

• Sadly, I would probably never recommend SRAM shifters despite their ability to downshift smoothly because I just cannot abide by their perceived business model ... and, their front shifter lacks TRIM (yes, the "Yaw" design belatedly remedied that flaw).

• So, THAT leaves Campagnolo's shifters as MY recommendation for resolving the downshifting problem which some of us who are not as deft at handling their equipment as you should look to BECAUSE despite oldbobcat's apparent trepidation to hubbub the rear derailleur cable, it isn't that difficult ...

AND, if you look at the drivetrain which people are inquiring about, they were often 8-speed drivetrains which would only require the rear derailleur cable be attached normally.

So, it really doesn't matter how great your DA 7703 shifters function for you because YOU are not the person who is experiencing a problem with your Shimano shifters ...

AND CONSEQUENTLY, your opposing remarks (and those of obc, et al) actually border on trolling, IMO.

 

[alfeng]

Originally Posted by dhk2
alfeng, afraid you've made yet another bad assumption to support your narrative here. What makes you think I am able to use a close-ratio cassette? I like a big gear for the Weds sprints.....usually in 53/13 or 12 sometimes. But also need to climb grades of 15% or more seated, which with my ability means I need a 27 to go with my granny 30-ring.

In fact, I use a 12-27 with my triple (53/39/30), which is about the widest Shimano 9 speed cassette I can find compatible with my 7703 GS RD. It's got gaps of 3 teeth on the 21-24-27 cogs, which is where I tried the shifting under higher loads uphill.

BTW. This is FYI for if you ever need a larger Cog than 27t in the coming years (it's what obc refers to as an outtake from my "family album") OR if you end up replacing your Triple with a Compact crankset (when that proprietary middle-granny chainring combo wears out) ...

​

​

That's a 12-34 XTR 9-speed Cassette ...

The original, 11t upper jockey pulley was replaced with a 10t pulley wheel to provide the necessary clearance.

Yes, as someone else noted in the past, the chain is theoretically too short ...

I obviously did not bother to change the chain before taking the picture ...

As pictured, the chain is set up for a 12-25 Cassette. Its length is "okay" if the chain is on the 39t inner chainring ...

It's almost not a concern because if the chain has made it to one of the larger Cogs, I am already using the inner chainring!!!

 

[dhk2]

alfeng, FYI, I did actually know that a road RD could be swapped with an MTB RD to run a -34 cassette. It's a fairly-standard mod around here in the land of steep hills, particularly since the switch from triples to compacts on new major-brand road bikes.

But why do you continue to embellish with incorrect assumptions, in this case, about my chainrings wearing out? I've replaced my 30 and 53 rings once and my middle ring twice already. It's not a problem, as FSA replacement rings are available separately.

Over 10 years and 37K miles, I'm surprised you didn't realize I must have replaced my chainrings at least once already. This reminds me of an old expression "CYA", which means ......"Check Your Assumptions".

 

[alfeng]

alfeng, FYI, I did actually know that a road RD could be swapped with an MTB RD to run a -34 cassette.  It's a fairly-standard mod around here in the land of steep hills, particularly since the switch from triples to compacts on new major-brand road bikes.    But why do you continue to embellish with incorrect assumptions, in this case, about my chainrings wearing out?   I've replaced my 30 and 53 rings once and my middle ring twice already.  It's not a problem, as FSA replacement rings are available separately.   Over 10 years and 37K miles, I'm surprised you didn't realize I must have replaced my chainrings at least once already.  This reminds me of an old expression "CYA", which means ......"Check Your Assumptions".       

Hey! You seemed to make such a big deal about your DA Triple that I did not think that I was being overly generous by allowing that you had also bought the 7703 crankset. So, it wasn't so much an assumption on my part as it was poor communication on your part.

• You may have posted a picture of your bike in one of these threads, but I've never seen it ...

My bad! And, whether or not you realize it, you seemed to be lamenting the limitation of your rear derailleur's capacity; so, I was just trying to help you out because MY suggestion was to help you out without your needing to pony up for a new rear derailleur .... BTW. I see YOU have demonstrated MORE selective reading on YOUR part because I have long advocated using Shimano MTB rear derailleurs as a substitute for Shimano Road rear derailleurs ...

• Again, not that you should have read everything that I've posted ...

A Shimano MTB rear derailleur would have been my original suggestion if you really wanted to use a Cassette with a larger-than-27t Cog BUT you and obc both seem to be recalcitrant toward non-standard applications of components.

 

[oldbobcat]

Originally Posted by alfeng


Okay!

SEVEN years with Shimano ...

• However, I'm NOT quite sure why you moved away from the 105 components if you were truly content with how it functioned ...
  
  Ditto for the subsequent move from Dura Ace if you were so satisfied with Shimano's shifting/etc. ...
  
  Of course, if you need to convince yourself-or-us that you switched only because SRAM presented you with something that was shiney-and-new ...
  Well, there is nothing wrong with taking the shiney Penny over the tarnished Dime ...
  I can certainly embrace-and-endorse cosmetic changes

I just thought you were more practical.




[*]
[*]
[*]

THAT begs the question ...

• Based on your recent tendency to change components after a relatively short period of time, do you anticipate your next shifters will be SRAM or Shimano?
  
  
  
  
  

The Dura-Ace bike sort of fell into my lap. I was poking around on eBay one evening, saw a Dura-Ace bike that fit me perfectly, the high bid was pretty low, so I placed a bid and forgot about it. When I got home from work the next day the bike was mine.

Around the middle of the third season, the frame on this bike started breaking down. I later learned that Giant was warrantying these frames like crazy. After a harrowing ride down Middle St. Vrain Canyon on a breezy day I finally concluded I wasn't making excuses for getting old, the frame really was a problem. When I decided to pull the trigger on a Madone, it was the end of the season, the new ones weren't available yet, and there were no more bare frames. So I said SRAM Force, what the hell, I'll try it. I like that the shift cables are under the tape. I like the shape of the hoods and the reach adjustments on the levers. I don't miss low trim. I like one lever for up or down. I like the cable routing on the rear derailleur. I like Shimano chains better, but I'm giving up on their cassettes because the offset is a little different and I have to adjust the cable whenever I switch.

Last month I tried a bike, a Scott Foil, with Red-22. It was pretty awesome, but I saw no need to whip out my credit card.

This is most likely my last road bike. There won't be upgrades unless I break something. I really don't take splitting hairs over equipment too seriously. I just ride it and take care of it.

And please stop shouting at us with the 72 pt print. We can read 12 just fine.

 

[oldbobcat]

Originally Posted by dhk2
OBC, you mentioned frayed cables in your post. On the 7700, my front (triple) shifter has frayed the cable twice now, right at the head. First time was at 18K miles, when it broke coming up my home hill. Second time, I actually checked the cable at 34K miles and found the replacement had one or two strands already broken. I congratulated myself on my preventive maintenance check and replaced the cable and housing.

Other that that, I find the durability of Dura Ace 9 sp has indeed been impressive. Everything just keeps working after 10 years and almost 38K miles. If I ever do get that new bike, have to say that Shimano has certainly earned my trust. I don't mind paying more up-front to get a quality, long-lasting product, but do wonder if the new 11 speed stuff holds up as well as my old 7700. Seems the main sales push has been to ever lighter weight and more speeds, as opposed to longer-lasting chains, cassettes and components.

That old 7700 stuff is reliable if you keep it clean, don't crash on it, and replace the cables when they start to unravel and the housings before they look like exploding cigars.

I broke a couple strands on my 7800 after about 10k miles. I've done tune-ups on bikes with only two or three strands that were still intact, or no strands intact and the head jammed into the barrel. Time for a new cable, I'm afraid. After I fish out the shards.

Regarding 11-speed, time will tell. Light doesn't necessary mean delicate, and Shimano learns from their mistakes. I'm impressed by the ergonomics and the smoothness. I'm not too crazy about the installation--home mechanics who don't do their homework, and those who use shop mechanics who don't do theirs, will be disappointed. But I worked on my first copy of 105 5800 today, and for a $2k bike it's all pretty impressive. Especially the brakes. 105 brakes have always been good, but 5800 sets a new paradigm. Nobody who buys a $2K bike will ever again settle for downgraded brake calipers.

 

[alfeng]

Originally Posted by oldbobcat
The Dura-Ace bike sort of fell into my lap. I was poking around on eBay one evening, saw a Dura-Ace bike that fit me perfectly, the high bid was pretty low, so I placed a bid and forgot about it. When I got home from work the next day the bike was mine.

Around the middle of the third season, the frame on this bike started breaking down. I later learned that Giant was warrantying these frames like crazy. After a harrowing ride down Middle St. Vrain Canyon on a breezy day I finally concluded I wasn't making excuses for getting old, the frame really was a problem. When I decided to pull the trigger on a Madone, it was the end of the season, the new ones weren't available yet, and there were no more bare frames. So I said SRAM Force, what the hell, I'll try it. I like that the shift cables are under the tape. I like the shape of the hoods and the reach adjustments on the levers. I don't miss low trim. I like one lever for up or down. I like the cable routing on the rear derailleur. I like Shimano chains better, but I'm giving up on their cassettes because the offset is a little different and I have to adjust the cable whenever I switch.

Last month I tried a bike, a Scott Foil, with Red-22. It was pretty awesome, but I saw no need to whip out my credit card.

This is most likely my last road bike. There won't be upgrades unless I break something. I really don't take splitting hairs over equipment too seriously. I just ride it and take care of it.

Thanks for taking the time to elaborate ...

BTW. Just for your consideration ...

• GUNNAR makes some pretty nice frames which you may actually find to be perfect for you if you ever opt for a new group (or, which you can put your old DA components on if you still have them)

Originally Posted by oldbobcat
And please stop shouting at us with the 72 pt print. We can read 12 just fine.

I'll think about it ...

BUT, which do you think will occur first?

1. MY abandoning larger fonts
2. YOUR next bike having Campagnolo shifters
3. dhk2's next bike having Campagnolo shifters
4. peace in the Middle East
5. the Apocalypse
6. ___ other ___

 

[oldbobcat]

Alf, the Gunnars are cool. So is Greg LeMond's new Washoe, or a custom steel Pellizoli.

I'm glad we're both laughing about this, friend.

 

[alfeng]

Quote:
Originally Posted by dhk2
alfeng, you previously instruct me to read a Park Tool quote, which you said supports your position. After OBC helpfully posted the quote, I read and agreed with it. I acknowledged that my Shimano shifters have "dwell" designed into the function of the small lever, but none associated with the long brake lever action. I also stated that the last time I used a Campy shifter years ago, I recall it had a definite dwell in the action of the thumb button. So yes, I agree with the Park Tool citation.

But now, you are backing away from the quote that you recommended I read: "Now, if the TWO OF YOU were on your game, then one of you would have noted that the person who wrote the Park Tool website copy indicated that "modern indexing shift levers use dwell" with the inference which you could have drawn-and-stated that if Campagnolo (and Sram & MicroShift) shifters lack "dwell" then they may NOT qualify as being modern!?! "

Apparently now you're willing to admit that the quote is only partially true, that it applies to Shimano, but not Campy.....because, well, Campy just may not qualify as "modern". That's one far-out leap of logic....congrats on inventing that one!

Not sure if you're using intentional misdirection, or just love to make up convoluted arguments, but either way, claiming that Campy must not a be a modern shifter fails the smell test. You fail to understand that it's necessary to have some "dwell" designed into the shifter. Funny thing is that it doesn't matter because in the real-world both of them function without any meaningful delay.


FWIW. This is a follow up because I found a "screen save" of how the PARK TOOL site used to describe "dwell" (March 2014 & before until date unknown when it was what we saw that it was changed when this thread was more active (last month -- August 2014)) ...

​

​

• Modern index shift levers use dwell, which is a hesitation between movements in the lever. These hesitations are timed to match the movements of the derailleur and the spacing in the rear sprockets. The design of some derailleur and shift lever brands requires more of a push (or twist) of the lever to complete the the shift. The amount of extra push or twist is not consistent between manufacturers and each rider must learn the particular attributes of his or her system.

The reference is only to the rear derailleur because the statement is in the section dealing with rear derailleurs. "Dwell" is also a component in the front shifter.

Obviously, I do not know why they re-wrote the definition that the were using ...

If you are interested, then YOU will have to inquire as to why they changed their description.

BTW. The "dwell" is in the large lever's shifting action & not a byproduct or consequence of the input from the small, inner paddle (or, thumb lever in the Campagnolo shifters as you suggested) which releases the derailleur's action to the spring action of the derailleur connected to its respective shifter.

 

[swampy1970]

Originally Posted by alfeng

Well, YOU obviously have Shimano shifters ...

With Shimano shifters (as indicated by AyeYo), you have to overcome the in-built "dwell" in the manner suggested where you momentarily un-weight the drivetrain JUST BEFORE you shift ...

OR (the EASIEST technique involves opening your wallet!!!), you can simply retro-fit your bike with Campagnolo shifters and shift when you want to shift without worrying about the chain skating on the Cog's teeth ...

OR, you can follow oldbobcat's periodic suggestion & buy SOME REALLY AGGRESSIVE MARKETING shifters & derailleurs to replace your current shifters & derailleurs if you are willing to live with an occasional mis-shift which will may-or-may-not occur during the first few weeks of using the Double-Tap shifters ...

OR, if you insist on continuing to use Shimano's shifters, then you can install a Shimano RAPID RISE rear derailleur which will partially correct the downshifting problem with the possibility of encountering an occasional problem when upshifting (there's no free lunch -- don't opt for this alternative if you like to upshift when you are sprinting as you have reversed the problem) ...

• if you don't change the rear derailleur's cage (kid's don't try THIS at home!), then you will eventually want a (new) longer chain (not really necessary, initially).

Dwell? What is this dwell you speaketh of? Once you realize how the inner lever works you realize there is no dwell. Chimps and monkeys can figure that one out. The change to a lower gear (15 to 14 for example) happens not when you push the lever in but when you let the lever go after it's been pushed in... Once you get your pea sized brain around this amazingly effing simple concept you'll realize that all the stuff you've been babbling about since 1992 is complete and utter twaddle.

 

[alfeng]

Quote:Originally Posted by swampy1970 .Dwell? What is this dwell you speaketh of? Once you realize how the inner lever works you realize there is no dwell. Chimps and monkeys can figure that one out. The change to a lower gear (15 to 14 for example) happens not when you push the lever in but when you let the lever go after it's been pushed in... Once you get your pea sized brain around this amazingly effing simple concept you'll realize that all the stuff you've been babbling about since 1992 is complete and utter twaddle.


[color=ff0000]WHAT?!? [/color] Of course, I think it's great that monkeys are so easily trained ([color=808080]don't tell PETA!!![/color]) ... AND, I think it's great that many riders feel that they have zero problems with their Shimano shifters ...

• I'm NOT one of them ... I have seen the emporer's new clothes, and found it wanting!

Regardless, both you and dhk2 have apparently inverted the use the term as Park Took used to use it & as I still use it by associating "dwell" to the inner paddle which simply allows the derailleur to move back toward its null position -- typically, toward the smaller Cogs or inner chainring(s) ... And, you have apparently failed to read the older PARK TOOL description (above) of "dwell" which I re-posted (it was also in the thread http://www.cyclingforums.com/t/500189/boardman-slr-9-2s-di2-or-custom-build from last Spring) . As I've stated before, [color=008000]life is too short to have to deal with "dwell" [/color] ... AND/OR a stylish but narrow-and-uncomfortable saddle if there are other options ... AND/OR poor customer service!

 

[swampy1970]

I don't care what Park Tool has to say, all I care about is that when I hear that click and then let go, my gear changes cleanly and near instantaneously. Maybe one day when I'm riding I'll try and figure out what this dwell is...

 

[alfeng]

Originally Posted by swampy1970

I don't care what Park Tool has to say, all I care about is that when I hear that click and then let go, my gear changes cleanly and near instantaneously.

Maybe one day when I'm riding I'll try and figure out what this dwell is...

NO WORRIES ...

• The Park Tool "quotation" was merely to once again demonstrate to the non-believers amongst you that if anyone really believed that I made up the term "dwell" to define the consequence of Shimano's eccentric take up spool then you should marvel at how its adoption had somehow become so widespread ... but, I was not the first to apply the term to the consequential phenomenon ...

• I continue to find it interesting that despite the phenomenon that some of you "doth protest too much" in defense of your choice/purchase and, I suspect that the experience of many individuals is often tailored to see the emperor's new clothes ...

Regardless, I suppose that I can't say it often enough ...

Clearly, a few of us are lame and cannot cope with the Shimano STI shifters as they were designed ...

• If you-and-others feel that "dwell" is merely a phantom menace then so much the better for you!!!