Hill climb strategy

davef said:

Scenario . . . a long hill climb fairly steady gradient. Three of us broke off from the rest of the group with me in front for about 5 minutes of a 30 minute climb. I figured that I shouldn't be pulling these two up the hill so eased up and fell to the back.

For the next 15-20 minutes one rider does all the work at the front by which time I couldn't hang on any longer. No wind and speed about 8-10MPH.

Should I have stayed in the front, effectively setting the pace, until the stronger rider decided that they wanted to push the pace up?

I think if I had got to the top in the group I could have recovered enough to be in for the sprint 5 miles later.

Comments other then "do more hill training" are appreciated 🙂

A lot can happen in a 30-minute climb. At 8mph the drafting advantage is minimal and staying together is a matter of psychological tactics. The fast guy saw your weakness and picked up his pace enough to drop you without digging so deep that the third guy would attack later.

I doubt you could have set the tempo for the whole 30 minutes anyway, but not showing weakness and hanging on during the accelerations hoping for a recovery is probably your best bet. I'd suck wheel as long as possible and hope the guy slows down.

A 30-min climb at 8-10mph is all about power management. There is no drafting advantage at those speeds. But, there is a major potential advantage to variable power pacing because no climb of such length is constant grade. If I were in your situation, I would have ignored the other riders and would have managed my sustainable power for maximum average speed. This could have resulted in huge power changes (e.g., >100w). If you don't have a PM, it's more difficult but the basic idea is to add power when the bike is slowest and ease off when the bike is fastest. You still might have been the last one to the top, but you would have gotten to the top as fast as your power allows. A long climb such as this is equivalent to a breakaway or bridging effort, which is all about power management for maximum speed. Of course, there is a way to make this unnecessary -- bring more sustainable power to the starting line => do more intervals. But, that's what you said you didn't want to hear.

Thanks guys for the suggestions.

I will do more hill intervals in preparation for the next hill climb 🙂

Your suggestion of varying the power output . . . I will pay more attention to what I do during the easier bits. I generally see it as a time to step up the pace rather than to recover, perhaps to my downfall! I do a long climb once week with varying grades, so I'll give your suggestion a try.

Cheers
davef

DiabloScott said:

I doubt you could have set the tempo for the whole 30 minutes anyway, but not showing weakness and hanging on during the accelerations hoping for a recovery is probably your best bet. I'd suck wheel as long as possible and hope the guy slows down.

Yeah that`s what i do mostly. Sometimes i try to provoke them with a small attack to look who can follow (but only if i have great legs)

davef said:

Thanks guys for the suggestions.

I will do more hill intervals in preparation for the next hill climb 🙂

Your suggestion of varying the power output . . . I will pay more attention to what I do during the easier bits. I generally see it as a time to step up the pace rather than to recover, perhaps to my downfall! I do a long climb once week with varying grades, so I'll give your suggestion a try.

Cheers
davef

The variable power (VP) pacing strategy is clearly the fastest way to ride a course of varying grade and/or conditions (wind). The problem is implementation of a VP pacing strategy, because even if one knows the course (grades) and conditions (wind) in real time (which most of us don't), the derivation of an optimal pacing strategy is a very complex set of computations. I'm working on simplifying this issue from the cyclist's perspective, but at the moment all I can tell you is to increase power when the bike is slow and decrease power when the bike is fast.

davef said:

Should I have stayed in the front, effectively setting the pace, until the stronger rider decided that they wanted to push the pace up?

As has been mentioned, since there's no drafting advantage, it really doesn't matter whether you're in front, back, or beside. You're best off riding your own pace and seeing if they're content to follow or if they want to push the pace for some reason (ie, to stay ahead of a chasing group). Attacks on a hill are more about breaking the other guy mentally rather than breaking the draft. If you're as strong as the other riders you'll pull them back by the top of the hill, if not you'll finish third.

frenchyge said:

If you're as strong as the other riders you'll pull them back by the top of the hill, if not you'll finish third.

Maybe not quite as strong as a climber but I seem to recover quickly and therefore can chase most level terrain breaks down. Also, I seem to descend quicker then most.

As there was another 5 miles to go after the climb I guess I was "hoping" that a stragety of "dragging the chain" hoping others wouldn't challenge my position would, just maybe, have given me a chance to stay in contact after the top.

However, from your comments it looks like people will just set up a pace they are comfortable with the strongest guy getting there first.

Thanks for the comments, now I'd better get out and work on this "pacing" issue.

Cheers,
davef

davef said:

now I'd better get out and work on this "pacing" issue.

Do you ride with a power meter?

davef said:

Maybe not quite as strong as a climber but I seem to recover quickly and therefore can chase most level terrain breaks down. Also, I seem to descend quicker then most.

Ok, you mean you're bigger than they are, right? 😉

davef said:

As there was another 5 miles to go after the climb I guess I was "hoping" that a stragety of "dragging the chain" hoping others wouldn't challenge my position would, just maybe, have given me a chance to stay in contact after the top.

However, from your comments it looks like people will just set up a pace they are comfortable with the strongest guy getting there first.

Actually, I think you misinterpreted my intent. People will still follow a wheel during a climb because it gives them a bit of comfort and focus mentally. If you're a weaker climber, then I think it was a good strategy to try to set the pace on the hill because I think people are more comfortable following someone than pushing the pace higher themselves. At a slow speed, you're not really at a big disadvantage aero-wise, so why not stay on the front and try to control the pace? I liked your idea to lead, but pulling off probably made it obvious to the other guys that you weren't as confident in your climbing and just put some blood in the water for them to feed on.

What I meant about pacing was to just lead at your own pace, rather than trying to "pull" them faster than you felt you could maintain. If they attack, then stick to your pace and see if they fade later in the climb or if you can catch them on the descent. Once they've gone off, there's little benefit to chasing back up to their wheels (other than psychological, since the aero benefit is nil) -- focus on your pace and try to reel them back slowly.

frenchyge said:

Ok, you mean you're bigger than they are, right? 😉

Actually, I think you misinterpreted my intent. People will still follow a wheel during a climb because it gives them a bit of comfort and focus mentally. If you're a weaker climber, then I think it was a good strategy to try to set the pace on the hill because I think people are more comfortable following someone than pushing the pace higher themselves. At a slow speed, you're not really at a big disadvantage aero-wise, so why not stay on the front and try to control the pace? I liked your idea to lead, but pulling off probably made it obvious to the other guys that you weren't as confident in your climbing and just put some blood in the water for them to feed on.

What I meant about pacing was to just lead at your own pace, rather than trying to "pull" them faster than you felt you could maintain. If they attack, then stick to your pace and see if they fade later in the climb or if you can catch them on the descent. Once they've gone off, there's little benefit to chasing back up to their wheels (other than psychological, since the aero benefit is nil) -- focus on your pace and try to reel them back slowly.

Two things, I dont care what the physics says, I think sucking wheels helps on hills but of course not if real steep and really only 8 mph. 10-12 mph I think I can tell.

But more important is the effect mentally. Why could Basso always follow Lance's wheel inthe 2004 TdF but lose by minutes on the ITT on Alpe d'Huez? I think for me holding someone's wheel who I know is faster is a big positive. But if you let fear or pain creep in then its over before its begun.

RapDaddyo said:

The variable power (VP) pacing strategy is clearly the fastest way to ride a course of varying grade and/or conditions (wind). The problem is implementation of a VP pacing strategy, because even if one knows the course (grades) and conditions (wind) in real time (which most of us don't), the derivation of an optimal pacing strategy is a very complex set of computations. I'm working on simplifying this issue from the cyclist's perspective, but at the moment all I can tell you is to increase power when the bike is slow and decrease power when the bike is fast.

I admire your punctilious adherence to scientific exactitude.

Unfortunately for you, human beings are irrational creatures. And while it might do well in a time trial to follow your pacing strategy, in a group race, you have to think tactically.

But that would be dull to talk about, in comparison with watts and heart-rates and cadences.

bobke said:

But more important is the effect mentally.

Agree. Hopefully my post reflected that.

bobke said:

Why could Basso always follow Lance's wheel inthe 2004 TdF but lose by minutes on the ITT on Alpe d'Huez? I think for me holding someone's wheel who I know is faster is a big positive.

True, but so is seeing that guy slow up or lose ground in front of me. I think sometimes people will ride slower than they would by themselves if there's a wheel in front of them, too. It's mental comfort in that case where they'll just sit in and letting the leader "do the work." I know I've slowed down on a climb when the leader in front of me slowed (much to my later regret). In hindsight, that's the OP's only play because he couldn't hold their wheel anyway, and if staying on the front delays the inevitable attack and holds them closer at the top of the hill, then maybe he can re-join on the descent. It's a gamble either way, and it's all hindsight now.

frenchyge said:

Ok, you mean you're bigger than they are, right? 😉

Actually, I think you misinterpreted my intent. People will still follow a wheel during a climb because it gives them a bit of comfort and focus mentally. If you're a weaker climber, then I think it was a good strategy to try to set the pace on the hill because I think people are more comfortable following someone than pushing the pace higher themselves.

I absolutely agree with this. I am not the strongest of climbers but make a habit of going to the front on the longer climbs and sitting at my own pace. this generally has the effect of the group riding at that pace and I can stay with the group. The only time the pace changes is if someone attacks and then I have some reserve to try and follow as the pace will lift but only as long as the attacker can hold the pace at which time the pace reverts to something a little more manageable.