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Highway Code Issues - Parliamentary Response

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UK and Europe
Published
9 May 2007
Last activity
24 May 2007
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Pyromancer
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  1. I've alerts set up for "railway" and "cycling" with
    TheyWorkForYou.com, and just got this:

    Written Answers - Transport: Highway Code: Cycling (8 May 2007)

    Stephen Ladyman (Minister of State, Department for Transport) |
    Hansard source

    Over 4,000 individuals responded to the consultation. About 70 per
    cent. of the responses were from cyclists. In view of the level of
    interest from cyclists I met with Emily Thornberry MP, chair of the
    All-Party Parliamentary Cycling Group on 7 September 2006.

    In response to the views raised by respondents to the consultation,
    the rules for cyclists were amended. Some 30 other rules throughout
    the "Highway Code" were revised to add emphasis to the need for
    consideration of cyclists by other road users.

    The view expressed by some that the "Highway Code" should omit the non-
    mandatory advice to cyclists about wearing helmets or high visibility
    clothing, was considered to be inappropriate on the grounds of the
    safety of cyclists. All road users have some responsibility for their
    own safety.

    Thoughts and comments?

  2. Pyromancer wrote on 09/05/2007 12:04 +0100:

    Quoted message said:

    I've alerts set up for "railway" and "cycling" with
    TheyWorkForYou.com, and just got this:

    Written Answers - Transport: Highway Code: Cycling (8 May 2007)

    Stephen Ladyman (Minister of State, Department for Transport) |
    Hansard source

    Over 4,000 individuals responded to the consultation. About 70 per
    cent. of the responses were from cyclists. In view of the level of
    interest from cyclists I met with Emily Thornberry MP, chair of the
    All-Party Parliamentary Cycling Group on 7 September 2006.

    In response to the views raised by respondents to the consultation,
    the rules for cyclists were amended. Some 30 other rules throughout
    the "Highway Code" were revised to add emphasis to the need for
    consideration of cyclists by other road users.

    The view expressed by some that the "Highway Code" should omit the non-
    mandatory advice to cyclists about wearing helmets or high visibility
    clothing, was considered to be inappropriate on the grounds of the
    safety of cyclists. All road users have some responsibility for their
    own safety.

    Thoughts and comments?

    When can we expect pedestrian helmets and hi-viz too?

    --
    Tony

    "The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there
    is no good evidence either way."
    - Bertrand Russell

  3. Pyromancer said:

    I've alerts set up for "railway" and "cycling" with
    TheyWorkForYou.com, and just got this:

    Written Answers - Transport: Highway Code: Cycling (8 May 2007)

    Stephen Ladyman (Minister of State, Department for Transport) |
    Hansard source

    Over 4,000 individuals responded to the consultation. About 70 per
    cent. of the responses were from cyclists. In view of the level of
    interest from cyclists I met with Emily Thornberry MP, chair of the
    All-Party Parliamentary Cycling Group on 7 September 2006.

    In response to the views raised by respondents to the consultation,
    the rules for cyclists were amended. Some 30 other rules throughout
    the "Highway Code" were revised to add emphasis to the need for
    consideration of cyclists by other road users.

    The view expressed by some that the "Highway Code" should omit the non-
    mandatory advice to cyclists about wearing helmets or high visibility
    clothing, was considered to be inappropriate on the grounds of the
    safety of cyclists. All road users have some responsibility for their
    own safety.

    Thoughts and comments?

    Sheer genius. He's managed to quieten down the murmurings of the MPs
    who are getting lots of letters from their constituents without
    actually addressing the most significant issue which is the change
    from "where practicable" to "whenever possible".

    Has anyone tried a FoI request yet to try and see where/how this
    change was lobbied for? I'm going to wait until after the 40 days
    before I try anything like that but maybe someone else has already
    tried?

    Tim.

  4. In article said:


    When can we expect pedestrian helmets and hi-viz too?

    We're part-way there. http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/01.htm#3
    "3: Help other road users to see you. Wear or carry something light coloured,
    bright or fluorescent in poor daylight conditions. When it is dark, use
    reflective materials"

  5. Quoted message said:

    Sheer genius. He's managed to quieten down the murmurings of the MPs
    who are getting lots of letters from their constituents without
    actually addressing the most significant issue which is the change
    from "where practicable" to "whenever possible".

    What do you expect from a politician?
    --
    Chris Johns

  6. Quoted message said:


    Has anyone tried a FoI request yet to try and see where/how this
    change was lobbied for? I'm going to wait until after the 40 days
    before I try anything like that but maybe someone else has already
    tried?

    Tim.

    Dear Patrick Hall,

    In response to a question about the proposed new edition of the Highway
    Code, Stephen Ladyman MP gave the following written answer :

    "Over 4,000 individuals responded to the consultation. About 70 per
    cent. of the responses were from cyclists. In view of the level of
    interest from cyclists I met with Emily Thornberry MP, chair of the
    All-Party Parliamentary Cycling Group on 7 September 2006.

    In response to the views raised by respondents to the consultation, the
    rules for cyclists were amended. Some 30 other rules throughout the
    "Highway Code" were revised to add emphasis to the need for
    consideration of cyclists by other road users.

    (etc.)"

    Although I cannot know all the views expressed by the 3000 cyclists, I
    do know that many were concerned by the advice introduced into the Code
    that cyclists should, wherever practicable, use the cycling facilities
    provided. This advice may seem so obvious as to be unnecessary, but in
    fact many such facilities are of a very poor standard : the relevant
    highway authorities do have guidelines for their introduction but these
    are often disobeyed.

    Even when comparatively well-designed, cycle facilities can expose the
    cyclist to considerable extra danger due to creating additional road
    junctions and bringing the cyclist into conflict with pedestrians :
    there is much evidence to suggest that cycle paths and on-road lanes
    can be counterproductive to cyclist safety.

    It is therefore extremely important that cyclists are able to consider
    the facilities freely and use them only when, in their view, it would
    be safer and more convenient to do so than to use the alternatives.
    Enshrining pressure to use the facilities in the Code, although not
    changing the law, will influence the outcome of insurance claims and
    similar disagreements. The 'response to consultation' document written
    as a result of publishing the draft Code acknowledged this fact.

    However, the result of the consultation and of Mr. Ladyman's discussion
    with Ms. Thornberry was that the wording of the relevant section of the
    Code was changed from 'practicable' to 'possible'. This is completely
    wrong : 'Practicable' was already far too strong a recommendation and
    'Possible' surely implies that the facilities should be used unless
    that would be 'Impossible'.

    In the light of this I would like to know the substance of Mr.
    Ladyman's discussion with Ms Thornberry, and the reasons why this
    caused the wording to be changed to something even less satisfactory.

    Yours sincerely,

    Adrian Godwin

  7. Pyromancer said:

    In response to the views raised by respondents to the consultation,
    the rules for cyclists were amended.

    Meaningless twaddle. The rules for cyclists were amended, but in such
    a way as to increase the concerns of those who responded rather than
    allay them.

    Quoted message said:

    The view expressed by some that the "Highway Code" should omit the non-
    mandatory advice to cyclists about wearing helmets or high visibility
    clothing, was considered to be inappropriate on the grounds of the
    safety of cyclists. All road users have some responsibility for their
    own safety.

    This rather begs the question of whether those measures do actually
    increase the safety of cyclists. The whole consultation was obviously
    an elaborate sham and as has been pointed out before the wording they
    have now is obviously the one they intended to have all along.

    And /still/ nothing from CTC as far as I can see.

    --
    Dave...

  8. dkahn400 said the following on 09/05/2007 16:01:

    Quoted message said:

    And /still/ nothing from CTC as far as I can see.

    Right on the front page of the CTC website, top of the news headlines:
    "CTC Cycling Holidays offers a huge range of cycling holidays...."

    WTF are they playing at?

    --
    Paul Boyd
    http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

  9. On 9 May 2007 08:01:59 -0700 someone who may be dkahn400
    <[email hidden]> wrote this:-

    Quoted message said:

    And /still/ nothing from CTC as far as I can see.

    Indeed. They appear to be useless at the moment, despite having done
    a great deal on this last year.

    Perhaps there has been a change of personnel and the new ones are
    all in favour of bike bantustans.

    --
    David Hansen, Edinburgh
    I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
    http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

  10. Quoting dkahn400 <[email hidden]>:

    Quoted message said:

    And /still/ nothing from CTC as far as I can see.

    I posted an entry from their weekly email newsletter, actually.
    --
    David Damerell <[email hidden]> Kill the tomato!
    Today is Second Monday, May.

  11. Pyromancer asked:

    Quoted message said:

    Thoughts and comments?

    You missed the all important url:
    <http://www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?id=2007-05-08a.135682.h>

    Which invites comments and has a poll "Does this answer the above
    question?". Voting in which will probably make no difference
    whatsoever, but it will certainly do no harm.

    --
    Danny Colyer <URL:http://www.colyer.plus.com/danny/>
    Reply address is valid, but that on my website is checked more often
    "Daddy, put that down. Daddy, put that down. Daddy, put that down.
    Daddy, why did you put that down?" - Charlie Colyer, age 2

  12. in message <[email hidden]>,

    Pyromancer (') said:

    I've alerts set up for "railway" and "cycling" with
    TheyWorkForYou.com, and just got this:

    Written Answers - Transport: Highway Code: Cycling (8 May 2007)

    Stephen Ladyman (Minister of State, Department for Transport) |
    Hansard source

    Over 4,000 individuals responded to the consultation. About 70 per
    cent. of the responses were from cyclists. In view of the level of
    interest from cyclists I met with Emily Thornberry MP, chair of the
    All-Party Parliamentary Cycling Group on 7 September 2006.

    In response to the views raised by respondents to the consultation,
    the rules for cyclists were amended. Some 30 other rules throughout
    the "Highway Code" were revised to add emphasis to the need for
    consideration of cyclists by other road users.

    The view expressed by some that the "Highway Code" should omit the non-
    mandatory advice to cyclists about wearing helmets or high visibility
    clothing, was considered to be inappropriate on the grounds of the
    safety of cyclists. All road users have some responsibility for their
    own safety.

    Completely misses the serious and important point, which is cycle
    facilities. The helmet advice I can live with, because it is not
    critically wrong. Helmets may not make you safer, but they don't make you
    significantly less safe. Using facilities 'wherever possible' is both new
    and exceedingly dangerous.

    I remain convinced that it's worth exploring whether TfL, or some other
    highways authority, can be sued for maintaining an attractive nuisance.

    --
    [email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

    [ This mind intentionally left blank ]

  13. in message <[email hidden]>,

    (') said:

    Has anyone tried a FoI request yet to try and see where/how this
    change was lobbied for? I'm going to wait until after the 40 days
    before I try anything like that

    Why?

    Surely if we're to get this stopped it's easier to do so *before* HMSO has
    invested tens of thousands of pounds in a new print run?

    --
    [email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
    ;; Sending your money to someone just because they've erected
    ;; a barrier of obscurity and secrets around the tools you
    ;; need to use your data does not help the economy or spur
    ;; innovation. - Waffle Iron Slashdot, June 16th, 2002

  14. On Wed, 09 May 2007 19:56:57 +0100,

    Simon Brooke said:

    in message <[email hidden]>,

    (') said:

    Has anyone tried a FoI request yet to try and see where/how this
    change was lobbied for? I'm going to wait until after the 40 days
    before I try anything like that

    Why?

    Surely if we're to get this stopped it's easier to do so *before* HMSO has
    invested tens of thousands of pounds in a new print run?


    Because there is no way that any information from an FoI request is
    going to get this stopped. The best it is going to do is provide
    material for a very long, drawn out legal process.

    As I don't have a clue about doing a FoI request anyway, and quite
    possibly get the first few rejected because I've done something wrong,
    I'd rather spend my time now lobbying the people who can get it stopped
    before it's a problem.

    Tim

    --
    God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t,"
    and there was light.

    http://tjw.hn.org/ http://www.locofungus.btinternet.co.uk/

  15. Tim Woodall wrote on 09/05/2007 20:22 +0100:

    Quoted message said:


    As I don't have a clue about doing a FoI request anyway, and quite
    possibly get the first few rejected because I've done something wrong,
    I'd rather spend my time now lobbying the people who can get it stopped
    before it's a problem.

    You don't need to know how to do it because any communication requesting
    information from a public body is an FoI request whether it identifies
    itself as such or not. I prefer to make it clear so just write "Under
    the Freedom of Information Act I would like to request the following
    information. <list of info required>"

    Nothing more to it but to sit back and wait 20 days for the information
    and if it doesn't arrive, remind them of their legal responsibility to
    reply in 20 days.

    --
    Tony

    "The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there
    is no good evidence either way."
    - Bertrand Russell

  16. In article <[email hidden]>,
    Tony Raven <[email hidden]> writes:
    |> Tim Woodall wrote on 09/05/2007 20:22 +0100:
    |> >
    |> > As I don't have a clue about doing a FoI request anyway, and quite
    |> > possibly get the first few rejected because I've done something wrong,
    |> > I'd rather spend my time now lobbying the people who can get it stopped
    |> > before it's a problem.
    |>
    |> You don't need to know how to do it because any communication requesting
    |> information from a public body is an FoI request whether it identifies
    |> itself as such or not. I prefer to make it clear so just write "Under
    |> the Freedom of Information Act I would like to request the following
    |> information. <list of info required>"
    |>
    |> Nothing more to it but to sit back and wait 20 days for the information
    |> and if it doesn't arrive, remind them of their legal responsibility to
    |> reply in 20 days.

    Been there - done that. Complained to the Commissioner for a refusal
    to provide. Been buggered around by the Commissioner, who merely got
    them to provide the (non-)information that they should have provided
    in the first place.

    Regards,
    Nick Maclaren.

  17. Tony Raven said:

    Tim Woodall wrote on 09/05/2007 20:22 +0100:

    Quoted message said:

    As I don't have a clue about doing a FoI request anyway, and quite
    possibly get the first few rejected because I've done something wrong,
    I'd rather spend my time now lobbying the people who can get it stopped
    before it's a problem.

    You don't need to know how to do it because any communication requesting
    information from a public body is an FoI request whether it identifies
    itself as such or not. I prefer to make it clear so just write "Under
    the Freedom of Information Act I would like to request the following
    information. <list of info required>"

    Nothing more to it but to sit back and wait 20 days for the information
    and if it doesn't arrive, remind them of their legal responsibility to
    reply in 20 days.

    Please identify how the new wording of rule 61 in the highway code
    "blah" was arrived at.

    "Dear Mr Woodall, we are unable to answer your FoI request as it would
    contain personally identifying information."

    It's going to take some careful thinking to phrase the request in such
    a way that I get as much information as possible without leaving an
    easy loophole.

    I also don't want to get deluged under copies of 7000 consultation
    responses.

    I'd rather make three or four requests, each one constructed from
    information gleaned from the previous request.

    Tim.

  18. [email hidden] wrote on 10/05/2007 09:02 +0100:

    Quoted message said:


    Please identify how the new wording of rule 61 in the highway code
    "blah" was arrived at.

    You want something like please supply copies of meeting minutes and
    internal communications of the DSA and between DSA and other Government
    Departments, MP and Ministers relating to the consultation exercise on
    and wording changes to Rules X, Y and Z in the draft Highway Code laid
    before Parliament in March 2007.

    The FoI covers requests for copies of recorded information not explanations

    --
    Tony

    "The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there
    is no good evidence either way."
    - Bertrand Russell

  19. On May 9, 6:04 pm, David Damerell <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    Quoting dkahn400 <[email hidden]>:

    Quoted message said:

    And /still/ nothing from CTC as far as I can see.

    I posted an entry from their weekly email newsletter, actually.

    Ah, so you did. Working on the Lords, and if that doesn't work
    judicial review. For some reason the CTC Newsnet you quote from hasn't
    reached me. The laatest one I have is dated 27/04/07.

    --
    Dave...

  20. Danny Colyer said:

    Pyromancer asked:

    Quoted message said:

    Thoughts and comments?

    You missed the all important url:
    <http://www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?id=2007-05-08a.135682.h>

    Which invites comments and has a poll "Does this answer the above
    question?". Voting in which will probably make no difference
    whatsoever, but it will certainly do no harm.

    30 votes against so far...

    Luke

    --
    Lincoln City 0-2 Southend United (AET)
    Swansea City 2-2 Southend United
    We went up twice with Tilly and Brush

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