High racers: why 650c?

Actually, Why not?

First of all these bikes are designed to go fast, climb well and attract the fast rider as well
as the wannabe. So in this venue there are plenty of pro level 571mm tires by Michelin,
Hutchenson, Schwabe, Panaracer and even Kenda. As well as sewups. 571's are lighter also. This
counts if you are a weight weenie. They will also allow, as you noted, the bike to sit lower
and for some it may be the difference of being able to have it or not.

Disk brakes? Great for tandems and touring recumbents but who wants to drag them up a hill on a
performance bike? I have no quarrel with disks and love em' on a mountain bike and also on my
EZ Tandem, it ain't no light weight and a tandem needs that kinda stopping power. Thinking of
my Aero with disks or a Corsa or Team Voare for that matter with disks makes me want to barf. I
have ridden up and down many a mountain and never needed disks. I rode in the Italian and
French Alps on a Nishiki with center pulls (Scott Mathauser Fluted Pads), front and rear
panniers etc. Additionally, today's dual-pivot calipers have plenty of stopping power. Now a
STRADA with disks racked for touring, now that might appeal to
me.

Why is it that some seem determined to make a Corvette carry furniture. Get a truck. Its quite
silly. Wanna tour, ride a touring bike! Wanna go fast get a fast bike and develop the engine to
ride it fast.

Jude

<[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I've been looking (OK, lusting) at the recent crop of high racers from the "major" manufacturers,
eg Vision Sabres, Barchettas, Volaes, etc.

Two aspects are similar in the models offered which perplex me (it doesn't take much).

A.) Why 650c tires/wheels? Is this choice to keep the seat a bit lower therefore extending their
market a bit (to slightly shorter or short-legged riders) versus using 700c tires/wheels?

With 700c's, you seem to multiply the available tire/tube/wheel choices by orders of magnitude.

B.) No hydraulic disc brakes? I've used hydraulic discs on my mountain bike for about three years
now and love 'em. Calipers are so last century...(pun intended).

Also, with disc brakes one could easily swap between 650c and 700c wheels (on a bike able to
accomodate 700c wheels). I'm sure the bike's handling characteristcs will change a bit with such a
wheel swap but I doubt by so much that your average Joe 'bent rider couldn't adjust...

OK, now tell why I'm waaaaaaaay off!

In the Yahoo Bacchetta group, someone HAS converted a strada to 700c wheels. The back wheel fit
with no mods (except brakes) and the front required a new fork. There is a picture of it. It looks
pretty good.

Quoted message said:

I've been looking (OK, lusting) at the recent crop of high racers from the "major" manufacturers,
eg Vision Sabres, Barchettas, Volaes, etc.

Two aspects are similar in the models offered which perplex me (it doesn't take much).

A.) Why 650c tires/wheels? Is this choice to keep the seat a bit lower therefore extending their
market a bit (to slightly shorter or short-legged riders) versus using 700c tires/wheels?

With 700c's, you seem to multiply the available tire/tube/wheel choices by orders of magnitude.

B.) No hydraulic disc brakes? I've used hydraulic discs on my mountain bike for about three years
now and love 'em. Calipers are so last century...(pun intended).

Also, with disc brakes one could easily swap between 650c and 700c wheels (on a bike able to
accomodate 700c wheels). I'm sure the bike's handling characteristcs will change a bit with such a
wheel swap but I doubt by so much that your average Joe 'bent rider couldn't adjust...

OK, now tell why I'm waaaaaaaay off!

[email hidden] wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>... [...]

Quoted message said:

With 700c's, you seem to multiply the available tire/tube/wheel choices by orders of magnitude.

[...]

As would 559's (26), which I believe are an option on the Bacchetta bikes.

John Riley

john riley said:

As would 559's (26), which I believe are an option on the Bacchetta bikes.

True enuff, but the number of high-performance tyres available in 559 is not large in comparison
with 571 or 622.

Dave Larrington - legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uklegslarry.beerdrinkers.co.ukOpen ↗
===========================================================
Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
bhpc.org.ukbhpc.org.ukOpen ↗
===========================================================

[email hidden] wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I've been looking (OK, lusting) at the recent crop of high racers from the "major" manufacturers,
eg Vision Sabres, Barchettas, Volaes, etc.

Two aspects are similar in the models offered which perplex me (it doesn't take much).

A.) Why 650c tires/wheels? Is this choice to keep the seat a bit lower therefore extending their
market a bit (to slightly shorter or short-legged riders) versus using 700c tires/wheels?

With 700c's, you seem to multiply the available tire/tube/wheel choices by orders of magnitude.

B.) No hydraulic disc brakes? I've used hydraulic discs on my mountain bike for about three years
now and love 'em. Calipers are so last century...(pun intended).

Also, with disc brakes one could easily swap between 650c and 700c wheels (on a bike able to
accomodate 700c wheels). I'm sure the bike's handling characteristcs will change a bit with such a
wheel swap but I doubt by so much that your average Joe 'bent rider couldn't adjust...

OK, now tell why I'm waaaaaaaay off!

I own a Vision R64 Saber. I am 5'6" tall and yes, if it had the 700c wheels I would not be able to
own/ride it. I am on my tip toes as it
is. I think this is the main reason that these high racers have the 650c wheels. Regarding the disk
brake question: I personally don't understand their usefulness on any bike. I remember when
they first became popular and I was riding my mountain bike then. I didn't want them due to
their added weight. My XTR v-brakes work great. I definitely wouldn't want disc brakes on a
high performance recumbent such as my Saber. Marci

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Regarding the disk brake question: I personally don't understand their usefulness on any bike. I
remember when they first became popular and I was riding my mountain bike then. I didn't want them
due to their added weight. My XTR v-brakes work great. I definitely wouldn't want disc brakes on a
high performance recumbent such as my Saber.

You must not live or ride in areas with lots of down hills. In mountainous areas, I have given
serious thought to disk brakes. The last thing I want to happen is to have a tire blow out at 50 mph
from an overheated rim.

--

Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager clee.orgclee.orgOpen ↗
- Bellaire, TX USA -

I thought the same as you about disk brakes, until I had them. Now I love the controlled stopping
power available. On a bike like a lowracer they are really nice to slow down from those
extraordinary speeds coming down hills. Sure the're heavy compared to calipers but I miss them on my
current bike. Craig

[email hidden] (Marci Taylor) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I've been looking (OK, lusting) at the recent crop of high racers from the "major"
manufacturers, eg Vision Sabres, Barchettas, Volaes, etc.

Two aspects are similar in the models offered which perplex me (it doesn't take much).

A.) Why 650c tires/wheels? Is this choice to keep the seat a bit lower therefore extending their
market a bit (to slightly shorter or short-legged riders) versus using 700c tires/wheels?

With 700c's, you seem to multiply the available tire/tube/wheel choices by orders of magnitude.

B.) No hydraulic disc brakes? I've used hydraulic discs on my mountain bike for about three
years now and love 'em. Calipers are so last century...(pun intended).

Also, with disc brakes one could easily swap between 650c and 700c wheels (on a bike able to
accomodate 700c wheels). I'm sure the bike's handling characteristcs will change a bit with such
a wheel swap but I doubt by so much that your average Joe 'bent rider couldn't adjust...

OK, now tell why I'm waaaaaaaay off!

I own a Vision R64 Saber. I am 5'6" tall and yes, if it had the 700c wheels I would not be able to
own/ride it. I am on my tip toes as it
is. I think this is the main reason that these high racers have the 650c wheels. Regarding the
disk brake question: I personally don't understand their usefulness on any bike. I remember
when they first became popular and I was riding my mountain bike then. I didn't want them due
to their added weight. My XTR v-brakes work great. I definitely wouldn't want disc brakes on
a high performance recumbent such as my Saber. Marci

Personally I don't get the 650c over a standard 26" wheel, it's only
1/2" larger or so, so the speed improvement can't be huge, and 26" has tire choices galore.
Personally, I wouldn't want the specialized 650 size, in my opinion, it's like a 451 front wheel
compared to the standard 406, not worth it.

Marci Taylor said:

[email hidden] wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I've been looking (OK, lusting) at the recent crop of high racers from the "major" manufacturers,
eg Vision Sabres, Barchettas, Volaes, etc.

Two aspects are similar in the models offered which perplex me (it doesn't take much).

A.) Why 650c tires/wheels? Is this choice to keep the seat a bit lower therefore extending their
market a bit (to slightly shorter or short-legged riders) versus using 700c tires/wheels?

With 700c's, you seem to multiply the available tire/tube/wheel choices by orders of magnitude.

B.) No hydraulic disc brakes? I've used hydraulic discs on my mountain bike for about three years
now and love 'em. Calipers are so last century...(pun intended).

Also, with disc brakes one could easily swap between 650c and 700c wheels (on a bike able to
accomodate 700c wheels). I'm sure the bike's handling characteristcs will change a bit with such a
wheel swap but I doubt by so much that your average Joe 'bent rider couldn't adjust...

OK, now tell why I'm waaaaaaaay off!

I own a Vision R64 Saber. I am 5'6" tall and yes, if it had the 700c wheels I would not be able to
own/ride it. I am on my tip toes as it
is. I think this is the main reason that these high racers have the 650c wheels. Regarding the
disk brake question: I personally don't understand their usefulness on any bike. I remember
when they first became popular and I was riding my mountain bike then. I didn't want them due
to their added weight. My XTR v-brakes work great. I definitely wouldn't want disc brakes on
a high performance recumbent such as my Saber. Marci

Nospam, First, precious few could ride a 700c high racer due to its size. As I see it, high racers
come in two sizes 559 and 650. The 559 is a great choice for commuting, touring, heavier riders, and
those living in areas where roads are rough. As the choice of triatheletes, the 650 size has
numerous great wheel and tire choices for the go fast crowd. I do not follow that size, so I would
hope there are also some more durable tires available for road riding and training for the tri crowd
(and now, the bent crowd).

This is just a casual observation from someone who thinks a Giro is a high racer. The 406 is the
biggest front wheel I could ever ride.

Don said:

Nospam, First, precious few could ride a 700c high racer due to its size. As I see it, high racers
come in two sizes 559 and 650. The 559 is a great choice for commuting, touring, heavier riders,
and those living in areas where roads are rough. As the choice of triatheletes, the 650 size has
numerous great wheel and tire choices for the go fast crowd. I do not follow that size, so I would
hope there are also some more durable tires available for road riding and training for the tri
crowd (and now, the bent crowd).

On most bikes that are designed for either the ISO 559-mm [1] and ISO 571-mm [2], the other size can
be used with a change in wheels and a brake pad adjustment. For example, Zach Kaplan uses ISO 559-mm
wheels on his Bacchetta Aero with the stock brakes.

[1] 26" MTB size
[2] 650C in the obsolete French sizing system

Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)

Marci Taylor said:

... Regarding the disk brake question: I personally don't understand their usefulness on any bike.
I remember when they first became popular and I was riding my mountain bike then. I didn't want
them due to their added weight. My XTR v-brakes work great. I definitely wouldn't want disc brakes
on a high performance recumbent such as my Saber.

I would not want to ride a fully faired bicycle on the streets unless it had disc brakes.
Streamliners can routinely achieve downhill speeds in excess of 60 mph on moderate hills, and even
more on long descents.

Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)

I agree with "bentbiker" (who?), my Aero has 559mm wheels. BTW, the lightest disc brakes are
about as light as road bike caliper brakes and have better modulation, more power, won't wear the
rims, don't have rim heating issues, are insensitive to rims going out of true or dents in the
rims and allow quickly switching to rims of different widths or diameters. The problem is no one
makes a lightweight carbon fibre 559/571mm road bike type fork that takes a disc brake caliper.
Also the disc brake rotor and caliper induce more air drag than a caliper brake and are in a
completely unshielded location on a high racer so have more of an aero penalty on a high racer
than on a low racer.

I'm tall enough to ride an Aero with 622mm wheels and would like to try one of those to see if the
reduced rolling resistance makes up for the increased fork and wheel frontal area.

Zach Kaplan

bentbiker <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Personally I don't get the 650c over a standard 26" wheel, it's only
1/2" larger or so, so the speed improvement can't be huge, and 26" has tire choices galore.
Personally, I wouldn't want the specialized 650 size, in my opinion, it's like a 451 front wheel
compared to the standard 406, not worth it.

Marci Taylor said:

[email hidden] wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I've been looking (OK, lusting) at the recent crop of high racers from the "major"
manufacturers, eg Vision Sabres, Barchettas, Volaes, etc.

Two aspects are similar in the models offered which perplex me (it doesn't take much).

A.) Why 650c tires/wheels? Is this choice to keep the seat a bit lower therefore extending their
market a bit (to slightly shorter or short-legged riders) versus using 700c tires/wheels?

With 700c's, you seem to multiply the available tire/tube/wheel choices by orders of magnitude.

B.) No hydraulic disc brakes? I've used hydraulic discs on my mountain bike for about three
years now and love 'em. Calipers are so last century...(pun intended).

Also, with disc brakes one could easily swap between 650c and 700c wheels (on a bike able to
accomodate 700c wheels). I'm sure the bike's handling characteristcs will change a bit with such
a wheel swap but I doubt by so much that your average Joe 'bent rider couldn't adjust...

OK, now tell why I'm waaaaaaaay off!

I own a Vision R64 Saber. I am 5'6" tall and yes, if it had the 700c wheels I would not be able
to own/ride it. I am on my tip toes as it
is. I think this is the main reason that these high racers have the 650c wheels. Regarding the
disk brake question: I personally don't understand their usefulness on any bike. I remember
when they first became popular and I was riding my mountain bike then. I didn't want them
due to their added weight. My XTR v-brakes work great. I definitely wouldn't want disc
brakes on a high performance recumbent such as my Saber. Marci

bentbiker <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Personally I don't get the 650c over a standard 26" wheel, it's only
1/2" larger or so, so the speed improvement can't be huge, and 26" has tire choices galore.
Personally, I wouldn't want the specialized 650 size, in my opinion, it's like a 451 front wheel
compared to the standard 406, not worth it.

You're right, it is a matter of personal opinion. However, the 451 is faster and lighter than the
406 at NO additional monetary expense. It is free speed. If you're seriously interesed in
performance the additional 406 tire choices don't mean much away, because you're going to chose the
fastest tire anyway. A 1 1/8-451 slices through tar and chip. On a 406 every damn pebble is like a
minature speed bump. Just my 2 cents.

Lots of interesting responses!

I should have been more clear about my penchant for disc brakes--I'm an anomolous datapoint in the
cycling community in that I'm 6'4", 260 lbs (of manmeat thank you very much--I'm an ex-football jock
and current cyclist and powerlifter) and have found that there ain't no stopping like disc
brake-age!

For you "weight weenies" ;-) who have spent serious $$$ on titanium steeds, etc. and are of
"slighter build" than I--I can see why you shun disc brakes--makes perfect sense. If I was in your
cleats I'd see it the same way (sorry for almost causing you to hurl, Jude!).

For me, hell another bit of metal on my bike is lost in the noise--especially if it adds
functionality like disc brakes do. I couldn't ride a titanium frame anyway--that thing'd goose
around like a wet noodle under my considerable ass cheeks.

I did a cursory look for 650c tires at the Hostel Shoppe (listed 3) and Nashbar (listed 1). There
are probably better places to shop for them. Maybe triathlete-oriented sites would yield more
results. God help you if you need a tire on the spot in the middle of BumF*ck, Kansas or somewhere
though. Me like 700c's.

I emailed Vision out of curiosity--they have no plans for discs as of their 2004 line of Sabres.

Instead of "BigHa," I need someone to start "BigAss 'Bents--'Bents for the Big of Ass."

-----------------------------------------------------------------
You don't have to be a genius to ride a recumbent--but it helps.

You are right about not much size difference. Difference is about 39 or 40 mm in circumference.
Unless you are running out of gears at the high end that's not the reason to change anyway. But how
many 559 X 23 tires do you find that will run 145 psi? Not many I think. Finding narrower than 559 X
25 is pretty tough. I'm not sure there are any. I just switched from dual 559's (559 X 25, 115 psi)
to dual 650C's (571 (I think) X 23, 145 psi). More aerodynamic rims, higher pressure and thinner
tires and I think they are a tad faster. Not much difference in the ride as far as I can tell. Oops
almost forgot, I also went from a 12/27 cassette to a 11/23 so I did get a few more gear inches at
the high end to boot. Too many variables! But I'm happy with the bike and that's all that matters.

bentbiker <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Personally I don't get the 650c over a standard 26" wheel, it's only
1/2" larger or so, so the speed improvement can't be huge, and 26" has tire choices galore.
Personally, I wouldn't want the specialized 650 size, in my opinion, it's like a 451 front wheel
compared to the standard 406, not worth it.

Don said:

First, precious few could ride a 700c high racer due to its size.

While the first dual-622 "high racers" were, 'tis true, mostly ridden by Dutchmen whose main
qualification seemed to be the attainment of a height of around seven feet, m'learned friend Mr.
gNick Green built one which was perfectly rideable with "short Brit-type legs". Of course you can't
have a straight monotube frame and hope to do this, but then no-one has said a "high racer" has to
have one. Have they?

Dave Larrington - legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uklegslarry.beerdrinkers.co.ukOpen ↗
===========================================================
Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
bhpc.org.ukbhpc.org.ukOpen ↗
===========================================================

Cletus Lee said:

You must not live or ride in areas with lots of down hills.

Or in the rain. Disc brakes continue to work properly in the rain. Rim brakes don't.

Dave Larrington - legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uklegslarry.beerdrinkers.co.ukOpen ↗
===========================================================
Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
bhpc.org.ukbhpc.org.ukOpen ↗
===========================================================

"Dave Larrington" skrev...

Quoted message said:

Cletus Lee said:

You must not live or ride in areas with lots of down hills.

Or in the rain. Disc brakes continue to work properly in the rain. Rim brakes don't.

And don't forget the squeal that saves you the need to have a bell and to move your hand to operate
said bell. Mine were a match for any bus, train or stable of pigs (not the cop variety) around in
terms of the horrible squealing noise they made when applied. :-)

Cheers Mikael

Mikael Seierup said:

Quoted message said:

Or in the rain. Disc brakes continue to work properly in the rain. Rim brakes don't.

And don't forget the squeal that saves you the need to have a bell and to move your hand to operate
said bell. Mine were a match for any bus, train or stable of pigs (not the cop variety) around in
terms of the horrible squealing noise they made when applied. :-)

I've had squeal problems on both types of brakes.

Ken Kobayashi [email hidden] solarwww.mtk.nao.ac.jppersonalOpen ↗