High intensity training help.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by smaryka
In the study, PPO mean "peak power output"... but at what duration?

I believe it's measured via incremental load testing, i.e. not the typical testing one could do solo by a max effort or by reviewing ride data. This thread may contain some helpful starting info: http://www.cyclingforums.com/t/317885/peak-power-output-ppo-determination

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by danfoz

I believe it's measured via incremental load testing, i.e. not the typical testing one could do solo by a max effort or by reviewing ride data. This thread may contain some helpful starting info: http://www.cyclingforums.com/t/317885/peak-power-output-ppo-determination

Thanks for that. For clarity, here's the relevant bit from the other thread:

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by acoggan Here, BTW, is how Stepto et al. (one of the studies heavily referenced in the 30 s interval thread that I assume has you interested in this question) describe their protocol:

"...each cyclist returned to the laboratory and performed an incremental exercise test to exhaustion on the Lode cycle ergometer, as previously described (9). Briefly, this test commenced at a starting load of 3.3 W·kg-1. This load was maintained for 150 s, then increased first by 50 W, then 25 W every 150 s until the cyclist was exhausted. Exhaustion was defined as a drop in the pedaling rate of > 10 rev·min-1 and/or a rise in respiratory exchange ratio (RER) of >1.1. Peak sustained power output (PP) was defined as the last completed work rate in W plus the fraction of time spent in the final noncompleted work rate multiplied by 25 W."

Using that protocol, I would guesstimate my PPO power at ~290-300w which would make 80% PPO ~235w. I would be surprised if 5 min on and 1 min off at 235w did anything more for me than 2x20 at ~225w which is my SST level. So either that's not the PPO in the table posted above, or I'm way off my estimate, or a 5:1 work:rest at threshold does what any other work at/around threshold does (no surprise there!)

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by smaryka

Using that protocol, I would guesstimate my PPO power at ~290-300w which would make 80% PPO ~235w. I would be surprised if 5 min on and 1 min off at 235w did anything more for me than 2x20 at ~225w which is my SST level. So either that's not the PPO in the table posted above, or I'm way off my estimate, or a 5:1 work:rest at threshold does what any other work at/around threshold does (no surprise there!)

Not knowing your true PPO, and taking a super wild guess at your FTP being ~250 (if you are using 90%), I would tend to agree. Since the studies mention "trained" cyclists (>60mg/kgVO2) I'm guessing these riders already do (or did) some steady work around threshold.

I don't have a bonafide PM and doing a big time SWAG based on some power conversion #'s using speed/resistance on my rollers but do my own 20min SST intervals at ~230-235. Based on my SST intensity vs. what I do for VO2 work (5 minute intervals at ~270) there is a huge difference in what my body is being told to do for the work duration. In fact so much so I couldn't imagine a 5:1 work:rest ratio, where mine is a 1:1 and by the 4th interval I am TOAST! (it could also be possible I'm overestimating my FTP and going anaerobic too early). Maybe your PPO is slightly higher than estimated, if even by a dozen or so watts, which would jack up the intensity enough (i.e. 250+ vs. 235) for a fitness boost at the mentioned duration? Would work for that 5min duration at slightly over threshold with a 5:1work ratio do it (if even by a couple watts)? I dunno, I'm no expert and just guessing.

I do remember H. Allen writing somewhere (ROAD magazine?) that a short block of VO2 work (110-115%FTP) is a good way to attempt bumping past a sticking point or to get a short term boost to power.

Since I already do some form of VO2 work if in "training mode", my own assumptions for a quick boost tell me basically what I read on Dave Henderson's blog... ride as hard as you can for one minute and rest three minutes or until you subjectively feel recovered and do it again and again until exhaustion or you see Jesus. That seems somewhere between the last two studies mentioned on the table. But bringing up Needmoreair's point, it's certainly possible to overdo it using that strategy if done for too long, if not physically at least mentally.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by danfoz
Not knowing your true PPO, and taking a super wild guess at your FTP being ~250 (if you are using 90%), I would tend to agree. Since the studies mention "trained" cyclists (>60mg/kgVO2) I'm guessing these riders already do (or did) some steady work around threshold.

I don't have a bonafide PM and doing a big time SWAG based on some power conversion #'s using speed/resistance on my rollers but do my own 20min SST intervals at ~230-235. Based on my SST intensity vs. what I do for VO2 work (5 minute intervals at ~270) there is a huge difference in what my body is being told to do for the work duration. In fact so much so I couldn't imagine a 5:1 work:rest ratio, where mine is a 1:1 and by the 4th interval I am TOAST! (it could also be possible I'm overestimating my FTP and going anaerobic too early). Maybe your PPO is slightly higher than estimated, if even by a dozen or so watts, which would jack up the intensity enough (i.e. 250+ vs. 235) for a fitness boost at the mentioned duration? Would work for that 5min duration at slightly over threshold with a 5:1work ratio do it (if even by a couple watts)? I dunno, I'm no expert and just guessing.

I do remember H. Allen writing somewhere (ROAD magazine?) that a short block of VO2 work (110-115%FTP) is a good way to attempt bumping past a sticking point or to get a short term boost to power.

Since I already do some form of VO2 work if in "training mode", my own assumptions for a quick boost tell me basically what I read on Dave Henderson's blog... ride as hard as you can for one minute and rest three minutes or until you subjectively feel recovered and do it again and again until exhaustion or you see Jesus. That seems somewhere between the last two studies mentioned on the table. But bringing up Needmoreair's point, it's certainly possible to overdo it using that strategy if done for too long, if not physically at least mentally.

My FTP taken by the usual "AP for an hour" method is nowhere near 250w though to be fair I've never raced uphill for 60 min so wouldn't be far off that in my peak of the season. I've got it set at 240w right now through a combination of SST work, testing, IF values of hard rides, and the other usual stuff. I have logged about 60,000kms with power over 5 years so basically it's just experience that tells me my FTP more than anything else -- it is an arbitrary number after all and consistency in measuring is most important, rather than the actual real number.

But that said, I do think a Vo2 block will boost FTP and in fact my highest ever AP for 60 min was recorded in the middle of "hill climb season" last October which in the UK consists of 2-10 min climbs, so of course I had been doing loads of Vo2max work in training for that. So I will probably incorporate some more structured Vo2max work than I usually do in road race training this year to try and time my peak for the national champs.

Off-topic, but the other day I came across the following workout for someone with a 220w FTP: 4x (2min at 270w, 1min rest), then 6 min rest between sets and 4 more sets. For me that would be roughly 290w for the "on" interval and I'm fairly sure I would collapse in a heap after set #1. Total TSS for 106min was something like 103. I believe this athlete is coached, and she claims this workout was supposed to work on 1-2 min intervals for road racing. Thoughts? (my first thought was: fire that coach!)

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by danfoz
Since I already do some form of VO2 work if in "training mode", my own assumptions for a quick boost tell me basically what I read on Dave Henderson's blog... ride as hard as you can for one minute and rest three minutes or until you subjectively feel recovered and do it again and again until exhaustion or you see Jesus. That seems somewhere between the last two studies mentioned on the table. But bringing up Needmoreair's point, it's certainly possible to overdo it using that strategy if done for too long, if not physically at least mentally.

If I ride as hard as I can for a minute, I cannot ride again for a number of hours, I absolutely have to crawl home at no higher than 60-70% of threshold, so I don't get what the 3 minutes is really about. Presumably it really means you should do the first minute actually bearing in mind you're going to do more?

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by smaryka

Off-topic, but the other day I came across the following workout for someone with a 220w FTP: 4x (2min at 270w, 1min rest), then 6 min rest between sets and 4 more sets. For me that would be roughly 290w for the "on" interval and I'm fairly sure I would collapse in a heap after set #1. Total TSS for 106min was something like 103. I believe this athlete is coached, and she claims this workout was supposed to work on 1-2 min intervals for road racing. Thoughts? (my first thought was: fire that coach!)

16 intervals is a lot. Granted if I calculated correctly it's only at slightly over 120%FTP which is the intensity anaerobic intervals should start with (depending on which schema one is using <120% is still L5 and VO2 territory where intervals should run anywhere from 3-8mins). I did one of Chris Carmichael's interval heavy plans a few years ago and if I remember correctly he called for something like 3x(3x2min interval) for a total of nine intervals at anaerobic intensity with 5 or 6 minutes between sets. It gets a bit convoluted to nail down a precise intensity mapping against a %of FTP as while he uses a % based on a field test, the test is a much shorter duration, something like 10 minutes, so one is going a lot harder during the test than one would for go for an hour (or even the popular 20min field test), i.e. his 101%+ is very different than 101%+ of FTP.

I could see this strategy surfacing a peak a few weeks after beginning these workouts though, and I would personally only embark on that kind of intensity 4-6 weeks before a target of races, with the expectation that I could increase fitness for another couple weeks, and then hold it for a couple more after that before needing some serious rest.

The number of intervals and intensity shouldn't be dictated arbitrarily though, they should be governed by how consistently one is able to hold steady power through each rep over the course of all sets. That's a lot easier to do with a power meter than without as a 10% drop in output may not be all that noticeable when one is begging the inquisitor for mercy 😉 And while you believe you may collapse in a heap after one set of the above, and indeed it often feels like the grim reaper is knocking on the door when in the middle of one of these workouts, very often that rest between sets is enough to recoup for another go. A lot of that depends on the quality of the base before such a strategy is undertaken as when fitness is high and the athlete is relatively fresh, recovery should come quickly.

"Most riders train too hard on easy days, and too easy on hard days."... This comes from the guy who coached Hinault, Lemond, and Fignon.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by JibberJim

If I ride as hard as I can for a minute, I cannot ride again for a number of hours, I absolutely have to crawl home at no higher than 60-70% of threshold, so I don't get what the 3 minutes is really about. Presumably it really means you should do the first minute actually bearing in mind you're going to do more?

Did you see Jesus? 😉

I'm betting if it were at an intensity where output was constant for the minute, not quickly peaking and then fading in the last 30secs, and you had a decent base of fitness, you could manage it. Starting the effort as a sprint may cause problems. But of course any effective interval strategy should be done with the mindset more is to follow.

If one can't go as hard as one can for a full minute and then do it again a few minutes later they'd be off the back in a race of attacks, only in a race one usually doesn't get the chance to recover at a lower intensity, it often has to happen at just a few watts below threshold. It's one of the reasons in my own mind I hold racing a bike as just about one of the hardest things physically one can do on this planet.

I've often had

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by danfoz I'm betting if it were at an intensity where output was constant for the minute, not quickly peaking and then fading in the last 30secs, and you had a decent base of fitness, you could manage it. Starting the effort as a sprint may cause problems. But of course any effective interval strategy should be done with the mindset more is to follow.

If one can't go as hard as one can for a full minute and then do it again a few minutes later they'd be off the back in a race of attacks, only in a race one usually doesn't get the chance to recover at a lower intensity, it often has to happen at just a few watts below threshold. It's one of the reasons in my own mind I hold racing a bike as just about one of the hardest things physically one can do on this planet.

I generally have a good base of fitness - certainly if I ever consider doing a max 1 minute effort I would have, regularly having CTL's over 100 (Power profile is ~4.6w/kg FTP, 5w/kg 20 minute, 6w/kg 5 minute, 9w/kg 1 minute) mind you to get close to that 1 minute I have to start with a sprint, partly I'm sure to take advantage of my good neuromuscular power, but presumably also to help buffer the anaerobic energy that comes after. Over 620w requires me to go home, 550w without a sprint start is repeatable, for me I'd say anyone who could even begin to complete that workout is not anywhere near delivering on their 1 minute potential. But of course, not everyone is likely the same as me, and it's possible some people can isopower a max 1 minute effort, I can't after 45seconds I'm doing the same watts as if I started at 1000w or 500 for the first 10 seconds.

I've never had to do anywhere near my 1 minute power to not get dropped in a road race, I don't think I've ever done more than about 80% of it even when attacking - I don't keep logs distinct for race, but I can't see more than 530w 1 minute on the likely courses, vs 670 for a max effort in training, let alone when simply reacting, and I've certainly not then had to do it again shortly after. There simply aren't people who can hurt that much around here, or courses which don't guarantee an easier portion to draft in.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by JibberJim
I've often had

I generally have a good base of fitness - certainly if I ever consider doing a max 1 minute effort I would have, regularly having CTL's over 100 (Power profile is ~4.6w/kg FTP, 5w/kg 20 minute, 6w/kg 5 minute, 9w/kg 1 minute) mind you to get close to that 1 minute I have to start with a sprint, partly I'm sure to take advantage of my good neuromuscular power, but presumably also to help buffer the anaerobic energy that comes after. Over 620w requires me to go home, 550w without a sprint start is repeatable, for me I'd say anyone who could even begin to complete that workout is not anywhere near delivering on their 1 minute potential. But of course, not everyone is likely the same as me, and it's possible some people can isopower a max 1 minute effort, I can't after 45seconds I'm doing the same watts as if I started at 1000w or 500 for the first 10 seconds.

I've never had to do anywhere near my 1 minute power to not get dropped in a road race, I don't think I've ever done more than about 80% of it even when attacking - I don't keep logs distinct for race, but I can't see more than 530w 1 minute on the likely courses, vs 670 for a max effort in training, let alone when simply reacting, and I've certainly not then had to do it again shortly after. There simply aren't people who can hurt that much around here, or courses which don't guarantee an easier portion to draft in.

Very nice numbers JibberJim. Maybe his suggestion to ride as hard as you can for a minute shouldn't be taken too literally, especially in your case 😉 I too may be guilty of over simplifying things when saying one should be able to carry out a repeatable attack at 100%. I think for fledgling racers without power meters his advice isn't bad. It's a tough thing to quantify a training effort in words. But when training without a power meter as many racers still do trial, error, and general perception is really all there is.

I see you are having fun at my expense. Enjoy.

Did I post in this thread that there is a genetic test to determine how a person is going to respond to HIT type of training? Well there is.

I don't do HITs. I do not respond well to them. If I want to get my power up, I just do 100%FTP for 30 minutes a day for a week. It seems to improve my interval performance.

You do realize interval performance depends on 2 factors: 1) leg strength, and 2) cardio/vascular condition.

I get a day off tomorrow. Rain. I will do some chores.

Have fun.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by JibberJim
If I ride as hard as I can for a minute, I cannot ride again for a number of hours, I absolutely have to crawl home at no higher than 60-70% of threshold, so I don't get what the 3 minutes is really about. Presumably it really means you should do the first minute actually bearing in mind you're going to do more?

I don't know if you have actually tested this type of workout, but I regularly do repeats of AWC efforts to exhaustion with 5min recovery durations. AWC has two parts, the larger of which recovers with a 30sec half-life, so that part is virtually fully recovered after 5mins. The smaller part of AWC has a much longer recovery half-life, hence the declining performance of track performances over the course of multiple heats. My protocol is to pick a constant power target that will give me an initial duration of ~3min, although one could choose a power target to target any duration from ~30sec to 3min. I ride the first one to exhaustion, ride at a recovery pace for 5min, then repeat for as many sets as I want (usually 10). Due to the fact that one of the two parts of AWC has a long recovery half-life, the durations will progressively decline. One of the reasons I do these sets is to measure the size of my AWC Part B. I use this data to supplement my MP/duration curve, for various purposes.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by RapDaddyo
I don't know if you have actually tested this type of workout, but I regularly do repeats of AWC efforts to exhaustion with 5min recovery durations. AWC has two parts, the larger of which recovers with a 30sec half-life, so that part is virtually fully recovered after 5mins. The smaller part of AWC has a much longer recovery half-life, hence the declining performance of track performances over the course of multiple heats. My protocol is to pick a constant power target that will give me an initial duration of ~3min, although one could choose a power target to target any duration from ~30sec to 3min. I ride the first one to exhaustion, ride at a recovery pace for 5min, then repeat for as many sets as I want (usually 10). Due to the fact that one of the two parts of AWC has a long recovery half-life, the durations will progressively decline. One of the reasons I do these sets is to measure the size of my AWC Part B. I use this data to supplement my MP/duration curve, for various purposes.

A ~2-3 minute interval rep is quite common for me, max efforts on the hills when the cars are not in the way in our local park leads to quite a bit of that, equally 30second reps I can repeat well, but 1 minute is flattening, knocks me out completely, I've done over 600 watts on quite a few occasions, and every time I've had to crawl home, so it's quite rare for me to attempt it. I will do lots shorter than 1 minute though, and loads of 4-8 minute max efforts (the duration of the hills near me). The only way I ever managed to do any sort of 1 minute intervals is to do them at much less than my max 1 minute power, I could do a lot better with 45second intervals, but the 50-60 second part is just debilitating.

JibberJim said:

If I ride as hard as I can for a minute, I cannot ride again for a number of hours, I absolutely have to crawl home at no higher than 60-70% of threshold, so I don't get what the 3 minutes is really about.  Presumably it really means you should do the first minute actually bearing in mind you're going to do more?

You're not supposed to ride it like the first 2/3rds of a kilo. :p If you're coming to the sport fairly late on or you've not done any very high intensity efforts in a very long time, it does take a while to get fit enough to do it. Just because a L5 effort is supposed to be just that, if you can only do 1 effort in that range then a bit of experimentation will be required to see what you can manage for the number of intervals you need to do. You'll never be able to do a flat out 1 minute effort. Ever. Even the world champ at the Kilo TT can't do a full gas 58 second effort - pacing is required or you'll fall flat on your ass around 40 seconds and change. Give it a couple of months and you'll get there - like with all training it takes time, a ton of sweat and the feeling you're gonna puke a couple of times...

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by swampy1970

You're not supposed to ride it like the first 2/3rds of a kilo. :p

If you're coming to the sport fairly late on or you've not done any very high intensity efforts in a very long time, it does take a while to get fit enough to do it. Just because a L5 effort is supposed to be just that, if you can only do 1 effort in that range then a bit of experimentation will be required to see what you can manage for the number of intervals you need to do.

I know exactly what I can do repeatable 1 minute efforts at, and they are nowhere near my max 1 minute power. It's perfectly reasonable to say you should do them at a lower power so you can repeat them, but then the description of "ride as hard as you can for a minute" disappears, and it would be better to describe the workout how it is.

For the interval 1 minute on, and 3 minutes off, do the 1 minute at the maximum power sustainable such that you can repeat N reps, I've never understood this desire to describe efforts in terms of "maximum you can do" etc. Since any truly maximal effort should not be recoverable from.

I also do an awful lot of high intensity work, and when fit carry a very high CTL, even unfit I still only do high intensity work, so it's not a lack of CTL or high intensity experience, it's just a simple fact, maximal 1 minute efforts are self limiting to 1 for me.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by JibberJim

I know exactly what I can do repeatable 1 minute efforts at, and they are nowhere near my max 1 minute power. It's perfectly reasonable to say you should do them at a lower power so you can repeat them, but then the description of "ride as hard as you can for a minute" disappears, and it would be better to describe the workout how it is.

If you haven't trained for it (i.e. you're a L2, 3 and 4 guy) the don't expect L6 to be something you can achieve within the first couple of months of trying. It takes time. If you need to lower the power down to do the number of repeats or find a compromise, then do so. L6 ventures into the territory of "the f**king grim." It's a horrible place where you need to relax yet put out ungodly watts. It takes time to learn how to turn everything on, especially if you're trying to do this at an rpm that you don't normally ride at.

If you've never done much in L6 and above before, then with like everything else - be patient and give it time. Figure out what you can do now and set a realistic goal and ALWAYS train in your race position when doing L4 and above. ALWAYS.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by swampy1970

If you haven't trained for it (i.e. you're a L2, 3 and 4 guy) the don't expect L6 to be something you can achieve within the first couple of months of trying. It takes time. If you need to lower the power down to do the number of repeats or find a compromise, then do so. L6 ventures into the territory of "the f**king grim." It's a horrible place where you need to relax yet put out ungodly watts. It takes time to learn how to turn everything on, especially if you're trying to do this at an rpm that you don't normally ride at.

If you've never done much in L6 and above before, then with like everything else - be patient and give it time. Figure out what you can do now and set a realistic goal and ALWAYS train in your race position when doing L4 and above. ALWAYS.

Are you talking L6 as a zone calculated from your FTP, or one-minute efforts based on a percentage of your known peak 1min power?

Two different things there, which may explain why you are missing Jibberjim's point. 😉

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by JibberJim
I've often had

I generally have a good base of fitness - certainly if I ever consider doing a max 1 minute effort I would have, mind you to get close to that 1 minute I have to start with a sprint, partly I'm sure to take advantage of my good neuromuscular power, but presumably also to help buffer the anaerobic energy that comes after.

it's possible some people can isopower a max 1 minute effort, I can't after 45seconds

I agree with you.

As you say it can get hard at the end of a 1 minute interval. If your heart rate gets away from you, it is an indication that your recovery is going to be longer rather than shorter. You might just have to go home. I find that cutting back until my heart rate stays where I want it helps. I can toss in some harder efforts and follow them with easier efforts as the need arises.

But the goal of intervals should not be to do what someone else can do. It should be to do what you can do. If you can only do 90% of your 1 minute power for 1 minute repeats, that is what you should do. If it is easier to watch your heart rate, do that.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by JibberJim

I know exactly what I can do repeatable 1 minute efforts at, and they are nowhere near my max 1 minute power. It's perfectly reasonable to say you should do them at a lower power so you can repeat them, but then the description of "ride as hard as you can for a minute" disappears, and it would be better to describe the workout how it is.

You have deep experience with a power meter, tons of data to review, and are applying these "scientific" observations/parameters to the nuances of the English language as being applied to descriptive terms a coach may use to define intensity zones to a rider training without a power meter.

Allen Hunter describes L6 work as "Go as hard as you can for the 1 minute on as these are maximal intervals."
Chris Carmichael describes this work from an RPE standpoint (on a scale of 1-10) as "10".
I'm sure other coaches have their own colorful language.

Maybe these coaches should add to their relative descriptions but even then the language could still be open to interpretation. Most new racers (training without power), and even some folks who have raced a bit but maybe not done any L6 work aren't familiar with the level of exertion that's required to bring about the physiological changes the zone provides. Some amateurs get all the intensity after their base from nothing more than early season races, and may not even really know why they go so fast (or slow) as the season progresses.

For riders training without power, training at intensity takes a much deeper level of experience and familiarity with their own bodies where an appropriate pace for whatever duration of a "short" interval (L6+, or anything up to 7-8 mins of VO2/L5) has to be learned. It can't just be prescribed by a coach as x intensity for x time. There are still a significant number of racers who train without power, and from the 60's all the way through the 90's (once modern training principles had come into play, but not the modern devices to measure them), even pro's had to learn this training skill.

And since HR is pretty much useless at runtime for any of the durations being discussed, we'll be left with the vagaries and subtleties of the language. If you could only do a couple you may have gone too hard, if you can do more than several you probably went too easy. Better?

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by JibberJim
For the interval 1 minute on, and 3 minutes off, do the 1 minute at the maximum power sustainable such that you can repeat N reps, I've never understood this desire to describe efforts in terms of "maximum you can do" etc. Since any truly maximal effort should not be recoverable from.

I see what you're saying, but I don't understand it. Anaerobic work capacity is made up of two parts, the larger of which recovers with a 30sec half-life, so that part of your AWC is virtually fully recovered very quickly (e.g., 5mins). The other, smaller part, does have a long recovery half-life, so it's probably not fully recovered until the next day. So, yes, an AWC effort that exhausts your AWC (whatever the duration) is not 100% repeatable in the short-term due to the smaller part of AWC that has a long recovery half-life, but one can do near-repeats based on the larger part of AWC that has a 30sec recovery half-life. Unfortunately, little research has been done in this area, to isolate the relative sizes of Part A and Part B and the recovery half-life of Part B, although one can draw some general conclusions from studying track cyclists' performances over the course of multiple heats in the same day. I have done my own research on myself, to understand these relationships in order to develop optimal power management models, but I have no idea if my metrics are representative of a larger population. FWIW, my tests suggest that my Part A is ~90% of total AWC.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by danfoz
For riders training without power, training at intensity takes a much deeper level of experience and familiarity with their own bodies where an appropriate pace for whatever duration of a "short" interval (L6+, or anything up to 7-8 mins of VO2/L5) has to be learned. It can't just be prescribed by a coach as x intensity for x time.

Everything you say is true about training with power. One size has never fit all.

Quote: And since HR is pretty much useless at runtime for any of the durations being discussed, we'll be left with the vagaries and subtleties of the language.

Heart rate works well for intervals as short as 45 seconds. But you need to be concerned with where you keep the peak rate realtive to LT and max.