High intensity training help.

og->My birthday is today so I feel too good to try and decipher your posts. Your posts seem like writings I would read in my literature classes when I was in college. Just a bunch of descriptive excerpts from the day.

And today by the side of the road I saw a deer drinking water out of the lake, past the deer I saw a Cat 1 pro riding up a hill at 30mph and decided that it was to slow so I caught him by doing 500 watts for 30secs and than slowed down to his slower pace. As we past the crest of the hill I saw the rode divide and decided to take the rode less travelled and that made all the difference...

-js

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by jsirabella [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

og->My birthday is today so I feel too good to try and decipher your posts. Your posts seem like writings I would read in my literature classes when I was in college. Just a bunch of descriptive excerpts from the day.

And today by the side of the road I saw a deer drinking water out of the lake, past the deer I saw a Cat 1 pro riding up a hill at 30mph and decided that it was to slow so I caught him by doing 500 watts for 30secs and than slowed down to his slower pace. As we past the crest of the hill I saw the rode divide and decided to take the rode less travelled and that made all the difference...

-js

The essence of a good story is that the numbers have some roots in reality.

Let's look at my silly story. No need to look at yours.

25mph is about 340w on a road bike. The flat to the hill at 25mph is Cat3 5 minute power. Maintaining 25mph on a 3-4% hill requires about 500w. That is Cat3 1 minute power. 1/2 mile hill is about 1 minute, so the hill is doable.

Why was a big gap opened up over the racers? The racers expected the power would remain the same and shifted down for the hill - rookie mistake. We kept the speed the same and did not shift.

Did the racers catch us? The story ended before that part of the race.

Quote:
Originally Posted by quenya [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

According to the study I mentioned above, Effects of Moderate-Intensity Endurance and High-Intensity Intermittent Training on Anaerobic Capacity and VO2 Max, commonly referred as 'Tabata' subject's VO2max showed an increase of 5+- 3 ml/kg/min over 3 weeks and 7 ml/kg/min over the full 6 weeks. They also showed a 28% increase in anaerobic capacity (over 6 weeks)

Regardless of the physiologic benefits of training supra-maximally to sharpen for the event, practicing position and pacing (which would qualify as supra-maximal training specific to the event) would provide a huge benefit even in a short time. As aerodynamics and pacing are two aspects of the pursuit that can affect overall time a great deal (see The individual pursuit: demands and preparation, by Dr. Coggan).

As far as how many seconds and places can be gained by preparing specifically for the event... It seems that if the fields are competitive a 5 second total improvement could be the difference between standing on the podium or not, that could be gained, or at least not lost from pacing alone.

If you are talking about the 2K time trial. To save 5 seconds at 30mph requires 60 more watts - 590w v. 530w. That is a huge improvement. (About 380v 340 at 25mph.)

In the road races 5 seconds is noise. He either makes the moves or he gets dropped. If he needs to worry about his ability to follow the moves, he will not be on the podium.

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I don't believe in the short term gains because if they worked one would simply stack short term gains on top of each other and move from untrained to pro level within a year. I don't see that happening.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by An old Guy [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

Quote:

If you are talking about the 2K time trial. To save 5 seconds at 30mph requires 60 more watts - 590w v. 530w. That is a huge improvement. (About 380v 340 at 25mph.)

In the road races 5 seconds is noise. He either makes the moves or he gets dropped. If he needs to worry about his ability to follow the moves, he will not be on the podium.

---

I don't believe in the short term gains because if they worked one would simply stack short term gains on top of each other and move from untrained to pro level within a year. I don't see that happening.

First, I've said twice now that pacing and position are critical. Any physiologic gains made in such a short period are just gravy but blowing up in the middle of a very short TT and limping home could add a lot of time. 5 seconds is noise in a road race, maybe but what if he blows it in the tt and finishes the RR and crit with the same time as the guys on the podium?

Short term gains generally have short life spans and diminishing returns, a good example of diminishing returns could be the study I've mentioned twice now, what you choose believe and reality do not coincide.

I rode a stage race in March with a crit and 10 mile TT on saturday and a RR sunday. I finished with the pack in the crit a few seconds behind the leaders I finished 5th in the TT (the worst TT I've ever ridden despite passing 3 riders on the course) and I was 7th in GC going in to a RR with big rollers leading to the feed zone and finish line and a section of really rough road that tends to thin the field. That should have been a perfect race for me, instead I had a terrible race finishing way off the back and dropping in the GC to 30th. My experience was atypical virtually everyone finishes that race with their GC position determined by their TT.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by quenya [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

First, I've said twice now that pacing and position are critical. Any physiologic gains made in such a short period are just gravy but blowing up in the middle of a very short TT and limping home could add a lot of time. 5 seconds is noise in a road race, maybe but what if he blows it in the tt and finishes the RR and crit with the same time as the guys on the podium?

Short term gains generally have short life spans and diminishing returns, a good example of diminishing returns could be the study I've mentioned twice now, what you choose believe and reality do not coincide.

I rode a stage race in March with a crit and 10 mile TT on saturday and a RR sunday. I finished with the pack in the crit a few seconds behind the leaders I finished 5th in the TT (the worst TT I've ever ridden despite passing 3 riders on the course) and I was 7th in GC going in to a RR with big rollers leading to the feed zone and finish line and a section of really rough road that tends to thin the field. That should have been a perfect race for me, instead I had a terrible race finishing way off the back and dropping in the GC to 30th. My experience was atypical virtually everyone finishes that race with their GC position determined by their TT.

(I will try not to laugh at your silly racing story. Others here will berate your advice because of your performance.)

You might notice that I suggested that the OP target one of the races in the stage race. (Better to take it easy where your skill set does not match the race and you will finish near the back and save something for when your skill set matches the race and you might finish toward the front.)

I ignored your comments about the study because it is not clear that the results apply to everyone or even the OP - whose abilities and training are unknown. It is also not clear what the risk of physical damage are to a person doing high intensity training for the first time without supervision are. It is not even clear what high intensity training for the OP would be.

You seem to have some belief that the results of the race will be determined by the TT race results. That may be true. But as I said 5 seconds is too much of an improvement to be believable. The OP is better served by refining his form and buying speed if he targets the TT.

I will agree that pace is important. In the past I have suggested to people that they pre-ride the course. Several times near race pace would be nice. But that was not the OPs question.

If your intent here is to actually help the OP, then perhaps you could elaborate a bit more on your advice (and I think he asked about help with training and not with race tactics or strategy).

Your advice is overly vague and appears to be superficial at best. You might as well have told him to "plan on going as fast as you can" or "identify your strengths and take advantage of them".

At 15 y/o he might need some help identifying his strengths. He may or may not have access to know what the race courses are like and therefore might not be able to make a plan and execute it.

Unfortunately, you come across as obtuse so all of your "advice" sounds like a clanging gong.

Quenya posted something he felt related to the OP's stage race situation, specifically in how a TT can relate to the overall. Your childish response is curious...... I know the race he is talking about (and did it myself). I know the field he was in and there were some big hitters in that (despite the fact you think cat 4 racing is for jeans and boots).

I guess you meet all kinds......

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by teebone [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

If your intent here is to actually help the OP, then perhaps you could elaborate a bit more on your advice (and I think he asked about help with training and not with race tactics or strategy).

Your advice is overly vague and appears to be superficial at best. You might as well have told him to "plan on going as fast as you can" or "identify your strengths and take advantage of them".

At 15 y/o he might need some help identifying his strengths. He may or may not have access to know what the race courses are like and therefore might not be able to make a plan and execute it.

Unfortunately, you come across as obtuse so all of your "advice" sounds like a clanging gong.

Quenya posted something he felt related to the OP's stage race situation, specifically in how a TT can relate to the overall. Your childish response is curious...... I know the race he is talking about (and did it myself). I know the field he was in and there were some big hitters in that (despite the fact you think cat 4 racing is for jeans and boots).

I guess you meet all kinds......

You might read my first post. It was the first response to the OP. I think I said all that needed to be said. (It seems that there are those who disagree.)

You might notice that the OP has raced in "nationals." I will give him credit for knowing how he rates among those he raced with. It appears he thinks he needs more intensity in his race efforts. If he can identify his weakness, I will give him credit in identifying his strengths.

I am even sure that he is smart enough to know how to get a map of the stage routes. Even I could do that.

----

I am very sorry for suggesting that Quenya and/or you are anything but the greatest racers in the world and best sources of training advice. Anyone who can race at Cat4 level deserves to be revered.

Just so you know what a heavy hitter is: There are stories about some 15 year old who raced the Spenco 500. He was part of a relay team but ... He, alone and without drafting, rode the last 30 miles in an hour. That's right: he rode 30mph for an hour after doing major riding in the previous 20+ hours. At least that is the story. His relay team placed 10th or 11th. Do an internet search. "Spenco 500" might be a suitable search phrase.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by An old Guy [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

You might read my first post. It was the first response to the OP. I think I said all that needed to be said. (It seems that there are those who disagree.)

You might notice that the OP has raced in "nationals." I will give him credit for knowing how he rates among those he raced with. It appears he thinks he needs more intensity in his race efforts. If he can identify his weakness, I will give him credit in identifying his strengths.

I am even sure that he is smart enough to know how to get a map of the stage routes. Even I could do that.

----

I am very sorry for suggesting that Quenya and/or you are anything but the greatest racers in the world and best sources of training advice. Anyone who can race at Cat4 level deserves to be revered.

Just so you know what a heavy hitter is: There are stories about some 15 year old who raced the Spenco 500. He was part of a relay team but ... He, alone and without drafting, rode the last 30 miles in an hour. That's right: he rode 30mph for an hour after doing major riding in the previous 20+ hours. At least that is the story. His relay team placed 10th or 11th. Do an internet search. "Spenco 500" might be a suitable search phrase.

The point isn't what you said in your first post, even if the above criticism is true, it's what you added afterward, contradicting others rather good advice. I think there are many sources of wisdom and good advice on this forum, I for one am a sponge and do actually know a little something.

As far as the greatest racers in the world, c'mon nobody is claiming anything of the sort. Your the guy who goes out and hurts pros in races and leads club rides that blow teams of racers out of the back of the group on some regular basis. But, if you look at my profile pic you'll see a picture of me during the aforementioned stage race's TT, because I do race, kind of.

Yawn....sigh. Knowing all there is to know about racing, you must obviously know that the best of pros were cat 4 racers at one point. And by heavy hitter I meant guys that have moved from cat 5 to cat 1 in a half season.

A - I never claimed to be a good racer.
B - I never claimed Quenya to be a good racer.
C - Regarding your first post, please point to the specific advice you gave to the OP that actually answered his question (versus what you felt like spouting to show off your vast library of cycling knowlege).
D - You do provide ample amounts of amusement as you regularly put on your "bitter beer face".

Have a nice day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by quenya [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]
As far as the greatest racers in the world, c'mon nobody is claiming anything of the sort. Your the guy who goes out and hurts pros in races and leads club rides that blow teams of racers out of the back of the group on some regular basis. But, if you look at my profile pic you'll see a picture of me during the aforementioned stage race's TT, because I do race, kind of.

+1. I race, kind of, as well. I've never been in a race with the "big hitters" (well, Tom Danielson once) but honestly it just doesn't matter. This kid isn't asking us for advice about training for the Tour. He's entering the same races we enter and work our asses off to do well in.

tb/qy->He knows the way he writes is annoying with his air of superiority and is getting a kick out if it.

"(I will try not to laugh at your silly racing story. Others here will berate your advice because of your performance.)"

Laugh at silly racing story? Who the fark are you? Now I know why he does not want to be known.

Most of his posts are to contradict and than belittle the person with his vague personal stories or racing results knowledge. When he does offer advice it is vague at best which he than tries to back up with his vast racing stories experience.

Basically, do not waste your time. He will eventually move along once he realizes no one is paying attention to him.

At this point the OP who is 15 has probably figured find a new place to go which is the funniest part of it all.

-js

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by quenya [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

The point isn't what you said in your first post, even if the above criticism is true, it's what you added afterward, contradicting others rather good advice. I think there are many sources of wisdom and good advice on this forum, I for one am a sponge and do actually know a little something.

As far as the greatest racers in the world, c'mon nobody is claiming anything of the sort. Your the guy who goes out and hurts pros in races and leads club rides that blow teams of racers out of the back of the group on some regular basis. But, if you look at my profile pic you'll see a picture of me during the aforementioned stage race's TT, because I do race, kind of.

I like the picture of you on the bike. I guess that is as much a silly bike racing story as any other bicycle racing story.

You have me all wrong. I just write the racing stories because people claim I don't tell them enough about my racing. (While you might consider the story you refer to as "club ride that blows teams of racers out the back" as something I do. You might notice that the story makes it clear: The team of racers wanted to race not train. And that our ride leader got credit for doing the work not me. What was not made clear was that our ride leader did not want to have to prove ourselves again so he settled it that day by giving them a beating that they would remember.)

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You mention that my advise contradicted others "rather good advice." No offense but what makes you the judge of the quality of advice? Look at a professional in the field of training: Chris Carmichael. I can do his power based intervals. I cannot tell if they help or not. But I cannot even do his heart rate based intervals. (I did his tests to set my power and heart rate bases.) I could have picked on any training professional and made the same type of statement.

But here you are are a guy with no professional reputation saying you can judge the quality of advice. Perhaps you should try to do the intervals that Carmichael suggests - both power and heart rate based. See if you can do both types. The results might surprise you.

I just gave you a method to evaluate training advice. If you ever do a comparison, I hope you report back.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by An old Guy [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

You mention that my advise contradicted others "rather good advice." No offense but what makes you the judge of the quality of advice? Look at a professional in the field of training: Chris Carmichael. I can do his power based intervals. I cannot tell if they help or not. But I cannot even do his heart rate based intervals. (I did his tests to set my power and heart rate bases.) I could have picked on any training professional and made the same type of statement.

But here you are are a guy with no professional reputation saying you can judge the quality of advice. Perhaps you should try to do the intervals that Carmichael suggests - both power and heart rate based. See if you can do both types. The results might surprise you.

I just gave you a method to evaluate training advice. If you ever do a comparison, I hope you report back.

What does Chris Carmichael have to do with this? What are you talking about? I was referring to the advice that bgoetz gave which you claimed was a bad idea... Having trained to race and raced a little as well as reading many books regarding athletics and cycling specifically; and taking physics, physiology, anatomy, chemistry, statistics, calculus among many other classes in college, I have as much right, if not more, to offer advice as you. The idea of taking the OP's training load and increasing overall percentage of high intensity work with drills specific the the 2km TT as described by bgoetz, seems to adhere to specificity, progression and overload principles.

You are the one who first judged someone's advice as wrong, you claimed that no benefits could come from a block of training within 4 weeks. Popular opinion and published science say otherwise but in your own words "But here you are are a guy with no professional reputation saying you can judge the quality of advice"

I am pretty sure that anyone, including the OP can filter through the trash in this thread and figure out the people that he should listen to and the PERSON that he should not, no worries on my part.

An old thread resurrected, but the advice may be helpful to newer readers.

Good reading for sharpening the knife 4-6 weeks out from a target:

[IMG]cyclingforums.com1000Open ↗[/IMG]

Very interesting that the gains in the table above were achieved over such a short duration by already fit cyclists. The shortest study on the table at 2 weeks long achieved a 25 watt increase over 40k duration.

I grabbed the table from an interesting blog on high intensity training: http://myworldfromabicycle.blogspot.com/2012/04/high-intensity-interval-training.html

The blog's author, Dave Henderson, simplified things for those training without a power meter...

"Without a power meter you could just simply follow my simple "no tool" method (other than a watch). I can not unequivocally state that this protocol is as good as the proven studies below, but based on the principles of HIT it should produce comparably similar results. All you have to do is ride as hard as you can for one minute and rest three minutes or until you subjectively feel recovered and do it again and again until exhaustion or you see Jesus. When you see Jesus, that's when you know it's time to stop."

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by An old Guy

Ok. 2K is 2 minutes. Give us a number. What is a significant result? 5 seconds? 3 places? Does it get him from the back of the pack to the top 3?

On what planet is 2K, 2 minutes for a 15 year old? Planet Old Man?

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by bgoetz

4 weeks is more than enough time to see significant results from high intensity training, in fact I would say as little as a week would be sufficient, although you need time for recovery. I am sure someone who knows even more than I will chime in, but two of the 4 events are going to require a unique type of pacing, so not only are you going to benefit from getting an idea of how to pace yourself you are getting valuable training.

I'd just ignore old guy. Apparently he has nothing better to do than troll people.

You're spot on. I can see big gains with high intensity in as short as 10 days. 4 weeks is a ton of time. 4 weeks is long enough to even overdo it.

OP, with four weeks you need to get specific. Replicate the demands of the event. Replicate the intensities and volume. Not all the way mind you, because you're training and training is a cumulative thing, but bits here and there so that you're slowly increasing your training load. Then rest up a few days before and go for broke.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by danfoz
An old thread resurrected, but the advice may be helpful to newer readers.

Great. Old guy will be trolling from his grave if people resurrect completely random, dead threads.

Why not just start a new one for your new info?

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by needmoreair

Why not just start a new one for your new info?

Because I was throwing about random search terms and came across this one. The studies I highlighted are relevant to the posted topic of getting the biggest bang for the buck in the shortest time possible. If I found it based on the search terms I entered, someone else is likely to as well.

Tangentially, I remember reading someone's phenomenal prose around clowns in VW's and didn't know the players at the time as I was new to the forum back in 2011, but I do remember laughing my ass off the first time I read it and glad I was finally reminded it was a forum member who I have come to respect. That post in itself is worth a rehash. But bona fide trolls seem to be best dealt with by actual data, so I'm not sure what the problem is?

In the study, PPO mean "peak power output"... but at what duration?