HGVs in city centres.

"Colin Blackburn" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The following is a news story about one man's campaign to have HGVs excluded from town centres
following the death of his daughter. She was killed by a HGV driver while cycling in London.

news.bbc.co.uk3219019.stmOpen ↗

Colin

Then how are shops in town centres to get their goods? Are hoardes of white vans better than
relatively few HGVs?

Reading the article I gather that the cyclist was in an area in which the HGV driver couldn't see at
all - perhaps it would be better if we educated all road users as to the blind-spots in HGVs so they
don't put themselves there?

Colin Blackburn said:

The following is a news story about one man's campaign to have HGVs excluded from town centres
following the death of his daughter. She was killed by a HGV driver while cycling in London.

... after having (reportedly) ridden up the left-hand side of it, which according to Cyclecraft is a
Very Bad Idea.

I make few excuses for motor vehicle drivers, but this is one. The drivers are not themselves
responsible for the limitations of their vehicles, and bendy drivers are as a group some of the most
skilled on our roads. It doesn't take much observation to realise that they swing round corners.

--
Guy
===
WARNING: may contain traces of irony. Contents may settle after posting.
chapmancentral.demon.co.ukchapmancentral.demon.co.ukOpen ↗

"Colin Blackburn" wrote ...

Quoted message said:

The following is a news story about one man's campaign to have HGVs excluded from town centres
following the death of his daughter. She was killed by a HGV driver while cycling in London.

news.bbc.co.uk3219019.stmOpen ↗

Colin

A few comments on this post and the replies:

1. CCTV's are extremely common on large vehicles in the US, mostly to assist the driver in reversing
safely. They are regarded as very successful in preventing accidents.

2. Every 18 wheeler (articulated lorry? HGV?) in the US has a large sign on the back warning
everyone in sight that the vehicle carrying the sign makes wide right turns (equivalent to a left
turn in the UK). This is usually accompanied by a large drawing showing just why it is a bad idea
to be on the right side of such a vehicle when it is making a right turn.

3. Trailers on artic lorries are fitted with very large turn indicators in the middle of the
trailer, designed to warn a motorist alongside of the truck of an intended turn.

Are HGV's in the UK equipped this way?
--
mark

Nathaniel Porter said:

"Colin Blackburn" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The following is a news story about one man's campaign to have HGVs excluded from town centres
following the death of his daughter. She was killed by a HGV driver while cycling in London.

news.bbc.co.uk3219019.stmOpen ↗

Colin

Then how are shops in town centres to get their goods? Are hoardes of white vans better than
relatively few HGVs?

It would seem this is the way a lot of other European cities are heading. If you watch the film it
is one suggestion. Vehicles with lower cabs do not suffer the same blind spots.

Quoted message said:

Reading the article I gather that the cyclist was in an area in which the HGV driver couldn't see
at all - perhaps it would be better if we educated all road users as to the blind-spots in HGVs so
they don't put themselves there?

Again, if you watch the film you will see that this is a suggestion. The film also illustrates the
blind spots between the three near side mirrors on a HGV. But, as is pointed out by a police officer
in the film, the driver is required to check the nearside when turning left. If the three mirrors do
not facilitate the necessary check then it suggests that the design of these mirrors needs to be
looked at.

Colin
--

Nathaniel Porter said:

Quoted message said:

"Colin Blackburn" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The following is a news story about one man's campaign to have HGVs excluded from town centres
following the death of his daughter. She was killed by a HGV driver while cycling in London.

news.bbc.co.uk3219019.stmOpen ↗

Colin

Then how are shops in town centres to get their goods? Are hoardes of white vans better than
relatively few HGVs?

Reading the article I gather that the cyclist was in an area in which the HGV driver couldn't see
at all - perhaps it would be better if we educated all road users as to the blind-spots in HGVs
so they don't put themselves there?

I tend to agree - the old addage is 'if you can't see it's mirrors, it can't see you'. I treat
all WVM and HGV's the same - I always assume they haven't seen me and react accordingly
(difficult, I know).

--
cupra (remove nospam please to mail)

Quoted message said:

Reading the article I gather that the cyclist was in an area in which the HGV driver couldn't see
at all - perhaps it would be better if we educated all road users as to the blind-spots in HGVs so
they don't put themselves there?

Maybe she was stationary and the truck driver put her there. CCTV is cheap these days and there's no
excuse for blind spots.

KC

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Reading the article I gather that the cyclist was in an area in which the HGV driver couldn't see
at all - perhaps it would be better if we educated all road users as to the blind-spots in HGVs so
they don't put themselves there?

He's using a dangerous piece of plant, with the potential to kill, one that has admitted blindspots
in it's safety equipment, and you want to educate the potential victims?

I have in my factory a large expensive guillotine, with the potential to kill, it is fitted with
magic eyes and twin handle controls , which bit of plant sounds as it it's safer?

Nathaniel Porter said:

"Colin Blackburn" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The following is a news story about one man's campaign to have HGVs excluded from town centres
following the death of his daughter. She was killed by a HGV driver while cycling in London.

news.bbc.co.uk3219019.stmOpen ↗

I have to say I was interested in the fact that '44%' of ten deaths were caused by HGVs. I'm trying
to work out whether only 40% of one death was caused by an HGV, or whether one death was caused by a
vehicle which was 44% HGV... inquiring minds need to know.

Quoted message said:

Then how are shops in town centres to get their goods? Are hoardes of white vans better than
relatively few HGVs?

Reading the article I gather that the cyclist was in an area in which the HGV driver couldn't see
at all - perhaps it would be better if we educated all road users as to the blind-spots in HGVs so
they don't put themselves there?

Perhaps it would be better vehicles with blind-spots that bad weren't be allowed on the roads? For
heaven's sake, a little video camera and monitor wouldn't cost *that* mutch, against the total price
of an artic tractor unit!

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) jasmine.org.uk~simonOpen ↗

Hobbit ringleader gives Sauron One in the Eye.

On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 15:49:37 -0000 someone who may be "Nathaniel Porter"
<[email hidden]> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

Then how are shops in town centres to get their goods? Are hoardes of white vans better than
relatively few HGVs?

You are assuming hordes of white vans.

Often large lorries delivering to shops are quite empty. This is often because they dropped off
goods at one shop and then went on to another, emptying the lorry. A break bulk scheme does not mean
that the entire contents of a lorry need to be transported to the shop in a horde of white vans.

For some deliveries the canny transport operator will use something like brox.co.ukbrox.co.ukOpen ↗
rather than a white van.

Quoted message said:

Reading the article I gather that the cyclist was in an area in which the HGV driver couldn't see
at all - perhaps it would be better if we educated all road users as to the blind-spots in HGVs so
they don't put themselves there?

You are assuming that she put herself there. Perhaps she did not.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E I will always explain revoked
keys, unless the UK government prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.

Nathaniel Porter said:

"Colin Blackburn" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The following is a news story about one man's campaign to have HGVs excluded from town centres
following the death of his daughter. She was killed by a HGV driver while cycling in London.

news.bbc.co.uk3219019.stmOpen ↗

Colin

Then how are shops in town centres to get their goods? Are hoardes of white vans better than
relatively few HGVs?

It means that roads don't need to be designed for the huge radii of curvature required for 44
tonners. This means tighter corners, slower speeds and a far superior environment for pedestrians
(you know how it is, trying to cross at a junction and the curve means you can't see what's coming).

Quoted message said:

Reading the article I gather that the cyclist was in an area in which the HGV driver couldn't see
at all - perhaps it would be better if we educated all road users as to the blind-spots in HGVs so
they don't put themselves there?

I think the point is that in this day and age we shouldn't have such vehicles in cities that *have*
such blind spots. If a risk assessment was carried out for this sort of machine in any other
environment than the public highway it would be promptly covered in CCTVs, more mirrors and
surrounded by banksmen.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

The drivers are not themselves responsible for the limitations of their vehicles

Of course they are, they choose to take them out. That act is accepting responsibility for their
limitations.

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Are HGV's in the UK equipped this way?

No no and No

HGVs ( LGVs) are equipped with the bare legal minimum that an operator can get away with, and often
not that much

"mark" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

2. Every 18 wheeler (articulated lorry? HGV?) in the US has a large sign

on

Quoted message said:

the back warning everyone in sight that the vehicle carrying the sign

makes

Quoted message said:

wide right turns (equivalent to a left turn in the UK). This is usually accompanied by a large
drawing showing just why it is a bad idea to be on the right side of such a vehicle when it is
making a right turn.

Theres a little book that we are supposed to read that has all that in.

On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 20:05:04 +0000 someone who may be "Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email hidden]>
wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

She was killed by a HGV driver while cycling in London.

... after having (reportedly) ridden up the left-hand side of it,

Not according to the BBC report referred to.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E I will always explain revoked
keys, unless the UK government prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.

mark <[email hidden]> wrote >

Quoted message said:

A few comments on this post and the replies:

1. CCTV's are extremely common on large vehicles in the US, mostly to

assist

Quoted message said:

the driver in reversing safely. They are regarded as very successful in preventing accidents.

2. Every 18 wheeler (articulated lorry? HGV?) in the US has a large sign

on

Quoted message said:

the back warning everyone in sight that the vehicle carrying the sign

makes

Quoted message said:

wide right turns (equivalent to a left turn in the UK). This is usually accompanied by a large
drawing showing just why it is a bad idea to be on the right side of such a vehicle when it is
making a right turn.

3. Trailers on artic lorries are fitted with very large turn indicators in the middle of the
trailer, designed to warn a motorist alongside of the truck of an intended turn.

Are HGV's in the UK equipped this way?

Mr Webb may be better advised to redirect his campaign along these lines - he'd stand much mure
chance of making a difference.

On the subject of CCTV & mirrors, whan an artic is making a turn, these would be pointing at the
side of the trailer if mounted on the tractor unit. In order to allow the driver to see his back
wheels, it would be necessary either have mirrors/tractor-mounted mirrors moving according to the
angle between trailer & tractor, or to mount CCTV on the trailer itself. This last would require
some sort of standardised mounting & cabl e connections to be fitted to ALL traliers.

Andrew

"Getronic Engineer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Reading the article I gather that the cyclist was in an area in which

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

HGV driver couldn't see at all - perhaps it would be better if we

educated

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

all road users as to the blind-spots in HGVs so they don't put

themselves

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

there?

Maybe she was stationary and the truck driver put her there. CCTV is cheap these days and there's
no excuse for blind spots.

Now *that's* a good idea.

"Colin Blackburn" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Nathaniel Porter said:

"Colin Blackburn" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The following is a news story about one man's campaign to have HGVs excluded from town centres
following the death of his daughter. She was killed by a HGV driver while cycling in London.

news.bbc.co.uk3219019.stmOpen ↗

Colin

Then how are shops in town centres to get their goods? Are hoardes of white vans better than
relatively few HGVs?

It would seem this is the way a lot of other European cities are heading. If you watch the film it
is one suggestion. Vehicles with lower cabs do not suffer the same blind spots.

But it would cause more congestion, more emmissions, more noise and so on.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Reading the article I gather that the cyclist was in an area in which

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

HGV driver couldn't see at all - perhaps it would be better if we educated all road users as to
the blind-spots in HGVs so they don't put

themselves

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

there?

Again, if you watch the film you will see that this is a suggestion. The film also illustrates the
blind spots between the three near side mirrors on a HGV. But, as is pointed out by a police
officer in the film, the driver is required to check the nearside when turning left. If the three
mirrors do not facilitate the necessary check then it suggests that the design of these mirrors
needs to be looked at.

Someone else suggested in this thread CCTV as a possible solution - that seems a good idea to me.

"marc" <marccdimspamremovedimspamto [email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Reading the article I gather that the cyclist was in an area in which

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

HGV driver couldn't see at all - perhaps it would be better if we

educated

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

all road users as to the blind-spots in HGVs so they don't put

themselves

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

there?

He's using a dangerous piece of plant, with the potential to kill, one that has admitted
blindspots in it's safety equipment, and you want to educate the potential victims?

Yes, most emphatically.

<conspiracy mode>

Now that there's nobody listening from government or lorry drivers, here's a plan. Let's campaign
for lorries to be banned and/or made perfectly safe. Marc already does this - although not
necessarily in a manner that is going to yield any useful results.

However I think we can agree that it is unrealistic to expect this to happen overnight, or even
overyear. Governments move quite slowly, which is going to put a bit of a damper on the whole
banning thing, and we still don't know how to make lorries perfectly safe and it would still take a
while for the entire collection of them to be upgraded/replaced even if we had worked it out.

So while we are waiting for utopia to arrive, can I suggest that we try to minimise the risks to
ourselves in the meantime. We could have secret 'learn how to avoid lorry blind spots' lessons. We'd
have to be a bit careful not to let on that we do know how to avoid the problem, otherwise that
might remove the impetus for the changes we want other people to make.

So keep it quiet, but pass the message on!

</consiracy mode>

clive

"marc" <marccdimspamremovedimspamto [email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Reading the article I gather that the cyclist was in an area in which

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

HGV driver couldn't see at all - perhaps it would be better if we

educated

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

all road users as to the blind-spots in HGVs so they don't put

themselves

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

there?

He's using a dangerous piece of plant, with the potential to kill, one that has admitted
blindspots in it's safety equipment, and you want to educate the potential victims?

Ultimately *everything* is a dangerous piece of plant, with the potential to kill; and which has
limitations which make it more dangerous, and may only be practically worked around by warning
others - for example, we educate pedestrians to stop, look and listen at pedestrian railway
crossings, because a train would have no chance of stopping (because of the mammoth stopping
distances they have).

That is life. Potential victims have to take at least some responsiblity for themselves.

Of course, I'm all for any reasonable measures to reduce such problems, such as fitting CCTV and
providing a monitor to help eliminate the blind spot as has been suggested by someone else.