Hey it really WAS the beer!

in 524590 20060824 071615 (Thomas A. Fine) said:

A collection of interesting facts I've learned since we last talked:

Beer is produced exclusively from C3 plants, those which have less
carbon-13.

The fermentation process depletes carbon-13 in the resulting ethanol,
resulting in a d13C value around -29 (if derived from C3 plants),
very close to soy.

Ethanol is absorbed by the liver.

Cholesterol is produced by the liver.

Testosterone is produced from cholesterol.

Low doses of alchol will increase testosterone production.

So does the 13C-depleted carbon in the alcohol that is absorbed by
the liver end up in the testosterone which is subsequently produced
by the liver?

Hmmm...

tom

So FL was the only rider who drank beer during the TdF?

Bob Martin said:

So FL was the only rider who drank beer during the TdF?

No. FL was the only one subjected to the isotope test.

--
Tony Rall

(Thomas A. Fine) said:

A collection of interesting facts I've learned since we last talked:

Beer is produced exclusively from C3 plants, those which have less
carbon-13.

The fermentation process depletes carbon-13 in the resulting ethanol,
resulting in a d13C value around -29 (if derived from C3 plants),
very close to soy.

Ethanol is absorbed by the liver.

Cholesterol is produced by the liver.

Testosterone is produced from cholesterol.

Low doses of alchol will increase testosterone production.

So does the 13C-depleted carbon in the alcohol that is absorbed by
the liver end up in the testosterone which is subsequently produced
by the liver?

Hmmm...

Damn it DON'T LOOK BEHIND THE CURTAIN!!! Ignore the man there with the levers
waving his hands.

The test if foolproof, error is not possible with the isotope test.

Ron

One thing to consider is that the steady state pool of cholesterol in
the blood stream is hundreds of mg/dL. The steady state pool of
testosterone in blood is hundreds of ng/dL (a million times less). If
the turnover rate of cholesterol is slow (I think it is) a short pulse
of a different isotopic abundance may not make much of a difference.

Also I think the the isotope results are reported as a difference
between the d13C values observed for cholesterol (as an internal
control) and the d13C values obtained for testosterone.

The only way that this hypothesis would make sense is if the
testosterone in the testes is preferentially synthesized from the
freshly made cholesterol or other steroid precursors.

RonSonic said:

(Thomas A. Fine) said:

A collection of interesting facts I've learned since we last talked:

Beer is produced exclusively from C3 plants, those which have less
carbon-13.

The fermentation process depletes carbon-13 in the resulting ethanol,
resulting in a d13C value around -29 (if derived from C3 plants),
very close to soy.

Ethanol is absorbed by the liver.

Cholesterol is produced by the liver.

Testosterone is produced from cholesterol.

Low doses of alchol will increase testosterone production.

So does the 13C-depleted carbon in the alcohol that is absorbed by
the liver end up in the testosterone which is subsequently produced
by the liver?

Hmmm...

Damn it DON'T LOOK BEHIND THE CURTAIN!!! Ignore the man there with the levers
waving his hands.

The test if foolproof, error is not possible with the isotope test.

Ron

quote='RonSonic'On 24 Aug 2006 02:16:15 -0400 said:

A collection of interesting facts I've learned since we last talked:

Beer is produced exclusively from C3 plants, those which have less
carbon-13.

The fermentation process depletes carbon-13 in the resulting ethanol,
resulting in a d13C value around -29 (if derived from C3 plants),
very close to soy.

Ethanol is absorbed by the liver.

Cholesterol is produced by the liver.

Testosterone is produced from cholesterol.

Low doses of alchol will increase testosterone production.

So does the 13C-depleted carbon in the alcohol that is absorbed by
the liver end up in the testosterone which is subsequently produced
by the liver?

Hmmm...

Damn it DON'T LOOK BEHIND THE CURTAIN!!! Ignore the man there with the levers
waving his hands.

The test if foolproof, error is not possible with the isotope test.

Ron[/QUOTE]

Pound’s slam dunk of a foolproof isotope test is like the testimony before the UN that 7005 aluminum tubes are only suitable for high speed centrifuges for uranium enrichment-uncontrovertable evidence of a nuclear weapons program.

How many here riding around on a mobile uranium enrichment device?

I guess the UCI felt their test was so foolproof they needed leak info to the press to make sure he was punished like Richard Jewel in just case a doping conviction wasn't adjudicated victoriously.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Mike said:

One thing to consider is that the steady state pool of cholesterol in
the blood stream is hundreds of mg/dL. The steady state pool of
testosterone in blood is hundreds of ng/dL (a million times less). If
the turnover rate of cholesterol is slow (I think it is) a short pulse
of a different isotopic abundance may not make much of a difference.

What happens to the steady state pool of cholesterol when you bonk?

Quoted message said:

Also I think the the isotope results are reported as a difference
between the d13C values observed for cholesterol (as an internal
control) and the d13C values obtained for testosterone.

No one knows exactly what they use, because WADA doesn't disclose such
details. Many of the studies that the test is based on used
pregnanediol, which is also derived from cholesterol. I don't know how
production of pregnanediol compares with testosterone in the short
term. If it is replaced more slowly than testosterone, then the
bonk->beer->testosterone-surge would make a failed test very possible,
perhaps even likely.

Quoted message said:

The only way that this hypothesis would make sense is if the
testosterone in the testes is preferentially synthesized from the
freshly made cholesterol or other steroid precursors.

Or if cholesterol is naturally depleted by the metabolism of an
elite athlete bonking. Or perhaps a dozen other scenarios that
neither one of us is smart enough to think of. You know, it's
interesting to listen to an engineer swear up and down that something
is impossible, and assure you that they've thought about it every
which way and there's no way for some scenario to happen. And then
when presented with the impossible scenario, the same engineer will
come up with two or three solid working theories to explain why,
within just a few minutes. I've see people do this many times, and
I've seen myself do it too.

At any rate, a study has shown that alterations in diet CAN be
immediately seen in testosterone metabolites. Whatever the underlying
theory, there is definitely a mechanism by which the newest cholesterol
is picked up.

tom

I think you're on to something (or INTO something, like halfway into a kilo
bag of marijuana). Even if this is not the case, the way Pink Floyd blamed
the beer is worth a laugh and therefore some serious consideration. Thanks
for doing the homework.

"Thomas A. Fine" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

A collection of interesting facts I've learned since we last talked:

Beer is produced exclusively from C3 plants, those which have less
carbon-13.

The fermentation process depletes carbon-13 in the resulting ethanol,
resulting in a d13C value around -29 (if derived from C3 plants),
very close to soy.

Ethanol is absorbed by the liver.

Cholesterol is produced by the liver.

Testosterone is produced from cholesterol.

Low doses of alchol will increase testosterone production.

So does the 13C-depleted carbon in the alcohol that is absorbed by
the liver end up in the testosterone which is subsequently produced
by the liver?

Hmmm...

tom

In article <[email hidden]>,

coldbeer! said:

I think you're on to something (or INTO something, like halfway into a kilo
bag of marijuana). Even if this is not the case, the way Pink Floyd blamed
the beer is worth a laugh and therefore some serious consideration. Thanks
for doing the homework.

I really wish Mr. Landis had lead and won the Giro so the name "Pink Floyd" had
some real meaning.

--
tanx,
Howard

Never take a tenant with a monkey.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

Howard Kveck said:

I really wish Mr. Landis had lead and won the Giro so the name "Pink Floyd" had
some real meaning.

And if he bonked you could say he hit The Wall.

[email hidden] (Thomas A. Fine) wrote in news:44ed442f$1
@cfanews.cfa.harvard.edu:

Quoted message said:

Testosterone is produced from cholesterol.

....

Quoted message said:

So does the 13C-depleted carbon in the alcohol that is absorbed by
the liver end up in the testosterone which is subsequently produced
by the liver?

Hmmm...

tom

Well, there's the problem: the relative enrichment or depletion depends on
where the testosterone is produced. If Landis' testosterone had been
produced in his body, he would not have failed the isotope test.

"Howard Kveck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

coldbeer! said:

I think you're on to something (or INTO something, like halfway into a

kilo

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

bag of marijuana). Even if this is not the case, the way Pink Floyd

blamed

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the beer is worth a laugh and therefore some serious consideration.

Thanks

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

for doing the homework.

I really wish Mr. Landis had lead and won the Giro so the name "Pink

Floyd" had

Quoted message said:

some real meaning.

That would have been sweet. Floyd would only have had wear pink for one
day. If Pink had started the Giro, there would've been one problem - you
can't compare Basso's molasses blood to Floyd's beer. Too bad they hadn't
caught Basso before the Giro. And I say this for reasons other than Pink.

OK, I'll stop calling him Pink now. It's out of my system.

Thomas A. Fine said:

You know, it's
interesting to listen to an engineer swear up and down that something
is impossible, and assure you that they've thought about it every
which way and there's no way for some scenario to happen. And then
when presented with the impossible scenario, the same engineer will
come up with two or three solid working theories to explain why,
within just a few minutes. I've see people do this many times, and
I've seen myself do it too.
tom

Dumbass,

If you have truly witnessed engineers do this, then we need to have
their names so that we can revoke their membership cards.

That, or they're not real engineers to begin with.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Jonathan v.d. Sluis said:

[email hidden] (Thomas A. Fine) wrote in news:44ed442f$1
@cfanews.cfa.harvard.edu:

Quoted message said:

Testosterone is produced from cholesterol.

...

Quoted message said:

So does the 13C-depleted carbon in the alcohol that is absorbed by
the liver end up in the testosterone which is subsequently produced
by the liver?

Hmmm...

tom

Well, there's the problem: the relative enrichment or depletion depends on
where the testosterone is produced. If Landis' testosterone had been
produced in his body, he would not have failed the isotope test.

You're not followin' me son. I'm telling you that his body, potentially
anyones body, can produce divergent isotope ratios in two different
steroids, sufficient to fail the isotope test.

tom

"Nice boy, but he doesn't pay attention to a word you say."

"That boy's so dumb, he things a Mexican border pays rent!"

"That's a joke, son. A flag waver. You're built too low. The fast ones
go over your head. Ya got a hole in your glove. I keep pitchin' 'em and
you keep missin' 'em. Ya gotta keep your eye on the ball. Eye. Ball. I
almost had a gag, son. Joke, that is."

-- Foghorn Leghorn

[email hidden] (Thomas A. Fine) wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Jonathan v.d. Sluis said:

[email hidden] (Thomas A. Fine) wrote in news:44ed442f$1
@cfanews.cfa.harvard.edu:

Quoted message said:

Testosterone is produced from cholesterol.

...

Quoted message said:

So does the 13C-depleted carbon in the alcohol that is absorbed by
the liver end up in the testosterone which is subsequently produced
by the liver?

Hmmm...

tom

Well, there's the problem: the relative enrichment or depletion
depends on where the testosterone is produced. If Landis' testosterone
had been produced in his body, he would not have failed the isotope
test.

You're not followin' me son.

Bye.

I'd forgotten about this.

During the tour, CycleOps (the power tap people behind Allen Lim) did a
whole series of podcasts on http://simplystu.com, a website they run
for Triathletes. One of the running topics (and jokes) was diet and the
amount of meusli the riders are fed, and how the recipe was a secret of
one of the Seignouirs, revealed in one of the later episodes. The main
ingredient of meusli is rolled oats, which is not far off from Free
Floyd's "diet can elevate test results", and Tom Fine's, "Hey maybe it
was the beer."

Now, some obvious questions are:

* Everybody eats meusli, how come it was only Floyd?

* Didn't the study for the CIR take this into account?

I think a difference might be that Floyd moved from training in the US,
near home, to Europe in the run up. Doing so changed his dietary
consumption sources completely. Maybe this resulted in some C12/C13
balance alterations. If such a change did occur, I kind of doubt that
the studies done in validating the CIR for doping tests took it into
account. More likely, it was run on a bunch of athletes in their home
environment eating a stable diet.

I'm a little joking, and a little serious. What do you think?

-dB
--
Floyd news and comment roundup at http://trustbut.blogspot.com

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I really wish Mr. Landis had lead and won the Giro so the name "Pink

Floyd" had

Quoted message said:

some real meaning.

maybe that's WHY he didn't do the Giro...

-dB
--
Landis News/Comment roundup at http://trustbut.blogspot.com

Thomas A. Fine said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Jonathan v.d. Sluis said:

[email hidden] (Thomas A. Fine) wrote in news:44ed442f$1
@cfanews.cfa.harvard.edu:

Quoted message said:

Testosterone is produced from cholesterol.

...

Quoted message said:

So does the 13C-depleted carbon in the alcohol that is absorbed by
the liver end up in the testosterone which is subsequently produced
by the liver?

Hmmm...

tom

Well, there's the problem: the relative enrichment or depletion depends on
where the testosterone is produced. If Landis' testosterone had been
produced in his body, he would not have failed the isotope test.

You're not followin' me son. I'm telling you that his body, potentially
anyones body, can produce divergent isotope ratios in two different
steroids, sufficient to fail the isotope test.

tom

"Nice boy, but he doesn't pay attention to a word you say."

"That boy's so dumb, he things a Mexican border pays rent!"

"That's a joke, son. A flag waver. You're built too low. The fast ones
go over your head. Ya got a hole in your glove. I keep pitchin' 'em and
you keep missin' 'em. Ya gotta keep your eye on the ball. Eye. Ball. I
almost had a gag, son. Joke, that is."

-- Foghorn Leghorn

Since endogenous testosterone and epitestoerone are produce concurrently, the logical choice would be to compare the istopic ratio on the epitestosterone as the standard. At any rate, since it's going to be an open hearing and Floyd's legal team will need see what was used as the standard, we should see if the standard selected was reasonable.

Were several standards selected? If so, might be interested in seeing if the C13/C12 isotopic ratio varies with differing standards.

dbrower said:

I'd forgotten about this.

During the tour, CycleOps (the power tap people behind Allen Lim) did a
whole series of podcasts on http://simplystu.com, a website they run
for Triathletes. One of the running topics (and jokes) was diet and the
amount of meusli the riders are fed, and how the recipe was a secret of
one of the Seignouirs, revealed in one of the later episodes. The main
ingredient of meusli is rolled oats, which is not far off from Free
Floyd's "diet can elevate test results", and Tom Fine's, "Hey maybe it
was the beer."

Now, some obvious questions are:

* Everybody eats meusli, how come it was only Floyd?

He was the only one to get an isotope test.

Quoted message said:

* Didn't the study for the CIR take this into account?

Who knows.

Quoted message said:

I think a difference might be that Floyd moved from training in the US,
near home, to Europe in the run up. Doing so changed his dietary
consumption sources completely. Maybe this resulted in some C12/C13
balance alterations. If such a change did occur, I kind of doubt that
the studies done in validating the CIR for doping tests took it into
account. More likely, it was run on a bunch of athletes in their home
environment eating a stable diet.

I'm a little joking, and a little serious. What do you think?

The only reason I'm joking is my chemistry sucks too badly for me to be solidly
outraged.

Ron