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Here's a puzzle

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UK and Europe
Published
19 March 2005
Last activity
20 March 2005
Original author
Tilly
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42
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  1. On 12 February 2004 I sold my car.

    On 19th February 2004 I was walking the Aonach Eagach Ridge in
    Glencoe. At 13:20pm I was captured on digital camera on the summit of
    Am Bodach by a friend.

    At precisely the same moment, 13:20:21pm my former car was captured by
    a Transport for London digital camera on Tower Bridge Road, entering
    the Congestion Charge Zone.

    When I sold the car, all documentation was filled in correctly,
    however, I gave the wrong portion to the new owner, and returned the
    wrong portion to DVLA. I was unaware of the mistake for several
    months.

    The car was still registered to me, so I was liable for the congestion
    charge.

    I wrote to TfL giving my representations, which they rejected, but
    gave me 28 days to give further representations, and an appeal form
    for the Parking and Traffic Appeals' Service (PATS).

    I sent off further representations and the appeal form. TfL wrote
    back saying that as the case was subject to appeal they would not
    listen to my representation. PATS wrote to say that all evidence must
    be sent to them by 28 June.

    In the meantime, I was writing to DVLA to find out what was going on.
    At that time I was unaware that I has sent to them the wrong portion
    of the registration document.

    I received notice of two further parking infringements, one in
    Canterbury and one in Bromley.

    DVLA sent me a copy of the registration document, the portion I should
    have returned. The date of sale had been tippexed out and the address
    of the new owner had been altered to that of Catford Bus Garage.

    I wrote again to DVLA explaining that the name and address had been
    altered, and they accepted this, and sent me a letter dated 30 June
    2004, saying that they had changed their records to show the change of
    ownership to 12 February 2004.

    Brilliant! I was able to deal with Bromley and Canterbury with little
    problem. However, PATS refused the evidence as it was beyond their
    time limit.

    On 19 January 2005 I heard from PATS. My appeal had been rejected,
    and I had no automatic right of appeal against the decision. I could
    request a review, or apply for a judicial review.

    I knew a judicial review would be out of the question, costing ££££s.
    But I applied for a review on the grounds of new evidence, not
    available on 28 June 2004. They accepted that I had grounds for a
    review.

    I also wrote to TfL explaining that they had given me 28 days to make
    final representations, and then suspended that while the case went to
    appeal, with 10 days remaining. Now that the appeal was over, and
    lost, I still had 10 days to make representations to them. This I
    did, with the single piece of evidence from DVLA showing that they had
    ammended their records to show that I disposed of the vehicle on 12
    February 2004.

    TfL wrote back promptly and on 28 January 2005 said that they accepted
    my representations, and that no further action would be taken against
    me.

    A sigh of relief.

    Imagine my surprise then, when I got home from work yesterday to find
    a letter on my doormat from PATS. It said that the review assessor
    found the new evidence irrelevant and that I owed TfL £80 and this
    would increase to £120 if not paid within 28 days.

    What a mess!

    TfL no longer want the money. PATS insist it must be paid.

    What could happen when I don't pay?

  2. "Tilly" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    This has happened in Norfolk, where various aged persons who never drive
    outside of their immediate locality have received notification that they
    didn't pay a Londson congestion charge due. Even thought they've been able
    to prove beyond reasonable doubt that they could not possibly have been in
    London etc., etc., etc., They were hassled & threatened that they were
    liable. Cue contacting media... Amazing how stuff got dropped quite quickly.

    Methinks you need to be incontact with your local press & TV..

    Cheers, helen s

  3. Tilly said:


    On 12 February 2004 I sold my car.

    Excellent. I hope you didn't replace it.

    Quoted message said:

    On 19th February 2004 I was walking the Aonach Eagach Ridge in
    Glencoe. At 13:20pm I was captured on digital camera on the summit of
    Am Bodach by a friend.

    At precisely the same moment, 13:20:21pm my former car was captured by
    a Transport for London digital camera on Tower Bridge Road, entering
    the Congestion Charge Zone.

    <snip tale of motoring problem>

    Quoted message said:

    What a mess!

    Quoted message said:

    TfL no longer want the money. PATS insist it must be paid.
    What could happen when I don't pay?

    You could try uk.tosspot ----> ----> ---->
    (seriously)

    They seem to thrive on discussing this kind of problem.

    John B

  4. Tilly said:

    On 12 February 2004 I sold my car.


    <tale of Kafkaesquian bureaucracy>

    You might want to post this to uk.legal.moderated instead of uk.legal.
    The signal to noise ratio on the former is much better.

    R.

  5. On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 11:32:22 -0000, "wafflycat"

    wafflesATv21netDOTcoDOTuk said:


    "Tilly" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    This has happened in Norfolk, where various aged persons who never drive
    outside of their immediate locality have received notification that they
    didn't pay a Londson congestion charge due. Even thought they've been able
    to prove beyond reasonable doubt that they could not possibly have been in
    London etc., etc., etc., They were hassled & threatened that they were
    liable. Cue contacting media... Amazing how stuff got dropped quite quickly.

    Methinks you need to be incontact with your local press & TV..

    It seems more complicated than that.

    TfL states: "No further action will be taken against you in respect of
    the above-mentioned Penalty Charge Notice(s)."

    The Law states: "The full penalty charge must be paid within 28 days."

    So, TfL accept that I should not pay the penalty, the Law says I
    should.

    It would seem that the Law is unjust.

    A theme of recent laws seems to be a move away from a presumption of
    innocence and a fundamental test of reasonableness. I don't believe
    that the adjudicator and review adjudicator have interpreted the law
    incorrectly.

  6. On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 11:32:22 -0000, "wafflycat"
    <wafflesATv21netDOTcoDOTuk> wrote in message
    <[email hidden]>:

    Quoted message said:

    This has happened in Norfolk, where various aged persons who never drive
    outside of their immediate locality have received notification that they
    didn't pay a Londson congestion charge due.

    Must be cyclists. No motorist would ever dream of breaking the law...

    Guy
    --
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

    "To every complex problem there is a solution which is
    simple, neat and wrong" - HL Mencken

  7. JohnB said:
    Tilly said:


    On 12 February 2004 I sold my car.

    Excellent. I hope you didn't replace it.

    It would have been even more excellent if I'd scrapped it.

    I now rely almost entirely on my bike, train/bike combo, friends, hire
    cars and taxis.

  8. Tilly said:


    TfL wrote back promptly and on 28 January 2005 said that they accepted
    my representations, and that no further action would be taken against
    me.

    A sigh of relief.

    Imagine my surprise then, when I got home from work yesterday to find
    a letter on my doormat from PATS. It said that the review assessor
    found the new evidence irrelevant and that I owed TfL £80 and this
    would increase to £120 if not paid within 28 days.

    What a mess!

    TfL no longer want the money. PATS insist it must be paid.

    What could happen when I don't pay?

    I would get your MP involved - that's what they are there for. Also
    since PATS are saying you owe the money to TfL, send the TfL letter to
    PATS saying that TfL have agreed that you owe them nothing and please
    cancel the demand for payment. You might also try sending TfL a copy of
    the their 28 Jan letter and the PATS letter and ask them to sort it out.

    This is apparently not an uncommon experience.

    Tony

  9. Tilly said:

    At precisely the same moment, 13:20:21pm my former car was
    captured by a Transport for London digital camera on Tower Bridge
    Road, entering the Congestion Charge Zone.

    Quoted message said:

    Imagine my surprise then, when I got home from work yesterday to
    find a letter on my doormat from PATS. It said that the review
    assessor found the new evidence irrelevant and that I owed TfL
    £80 and this would increase to £120 if not paid within 28 days.

    Contact the Conservative party - they're looking for examples of unfairness
    to batter the govt with, and this arbitrary process might catch their eye.

  10. Tilly said:

    On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 11:32:22 -0000, "wafflycat"

    wafflesATv21netDOTcoDOTuk said:

    "Tilly" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    This has happened in Norfolk, where various aged persons who never drive
    outside of their immediate locality have received notification that they
    didn't pay a Londson congestion charge due. Even thought they've been able
    to prove beyond reasonable doubt that they could not possibly have been in
    London etc., etc., etc., They were hassled & threatened that they were
    liable. Cue contacting media... Amazing how stuff got dropped quite quickly.

    Methinks you need to be incontact with your local press & TV..

    It seems more complicated than that.

    TfL states: "No further action will be taken against you in respect of
    the above-mentioned Penalty Charge Notice(s)."

    The Law states: "The full penalty charge must be paid within 28 days."

    So, TfL accept that I should not pay the penalty, the Law says I
    should.

    It would seem that the Law is unjust.

    A theme of recent laws seems to be a move away from a presumption of
    innocence and a fundamental test of reasonableness. I don't believe
    that the adjudicator and review adjudicator have interpreted the law
    incorrectly.

    Can you cite the exact Regulation, rather than the snippet above?

    --
    Joe * If I cannot be free I'll be cheap

  11. On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 13:37:39 +0000, JLB <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    Can you cite the exact Regulation, rather than the snippet above?

    The adjudicator's original decision is 3 pages.

    Here is a snippet.

    "The Road User Charging (Charging and Penalty Charges)(London)
    Regulations 2001, Section 6(5) require that the registered keeper
    notify the Secretary of State in writing that there has been a change
    of ownership of the Vehicle."

    "The Appellant has confirmed that the vehicle was sold prior to the
    contravention occurring on 19 February 2004 but the copy Notification
    of Sale provided by the DVLA shows that the transfer occurred on 4
    April 2004. The appellant has also stated in his undated letter
    received by PATAS on 20 May 2004 that it was possible he had
    "retained, and then returned to DVLA, the wrong portion of the
    registration document". He asserts, however, that he had acted in
    good faith."

    "The Appellant contends that the Notification of Sale document has
    been tampered with and that the date of transfer is incorrect. He
    also notes that the address of the purchaser may be incorrect as it is
    a bus garage."

    "TfL's check with the DVLA revealed that the Appellant was the
    registered keeper of the vehicle on 19 February 2004, the date of the
    contravention."

    "The issue in this case is whether the Appellant complied with the
    legislation such as to enable the transfer of liability to the
    purchaser of the vehicle. I note the appellant's evidence that he was
    not in London on the relevant date and accept that he was not.
    However, it is the presence of the vehicle in the Congestion Zone
    which gives rise to liability, not the presence of the driver or
    registered keeper. I accept TfL's evidence, that the vehicle was in
    the Zone on 19th February 2004 and that a contravention occurred."

    "The issue is whether the Appellant is able to transfer liability for
    the contravention to the purchaser of the vehicle. I accept the
    Appellant's evidence that he posted a document to the DVLA on about
    14th February 2004. I note that the document disclosed by the DVLA
    states that the transfer occurred on 4 April 2004. I note also the
    Appellant's contention that this date has been altered; the appellant
    is unable to offer any evidence as to how this occurred. I find it
    unlikely that it was amended by the Appellant himself or DVLA staff
    and conclude that this document must have been amended by an unknown
    person and forwarded to the DVLA by someone other than the Appellant
    (who would have noticed the discrepancy), perhaps the purchaser of the
    vehicle. It follows, therefore, that the incorrect document was sent
    to the DVLA by the Appellant on about 14th February 2004 (as indeed
    has been suggested by the Appellant himself). I therefore find that
    the Appellant did not comply with the legislation for notification of
    sale to the DVLA and that, having failed to do so, he cannot transfer
    liability for the Penalty Charge to the purchaser of the vehicle."

    "In the circumstances, while sympathetic to the Appellant's position,
    I have no alternative but to refuse this appeal."

    ===========

    The review decision states that DVLA amending their records to show
    that I disposed of the vehicle on 12 February 2004 has no bearing on
    her earlier decision of my ability to transfer liability to the new
    owner of the vehicle.

    ===========

    It would seem that I am liable for any further contraventions.

  12. On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 13:31:54 -0000, "Steve Walker"
    <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    <[email hidden]>:

    Quoted message said:

    Contact the Conservative party - they're looking for examples of unfairness
    to batter the govt with, and this arbitrary process might catch their eye.

    Have they got round to apologising for Matrix Churchill, then? Trying
    to withhold evidence in criminal trials in order to cover up for
    ministers lying to parliament sounds about as unfair as it gets to me.

    Guy
    --
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

    "To every complex problem there is a solution which is
    simple, neat and wrong" - HL Mencken

  13. Sanni Abacha said:

    On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 11:27:21 +0000, Tilly <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    DVLA sent me a copy of the registration document, the portion I should
    have returned. The date of sale had been tippexed out and the address
    of the new owner had been altered to that of Catford Bus Garage.

    If the address is of Catford Bus Garage why did they contact you for
    the congestion charge/parking fee? Sounds like a troll to me.
    pete

    Call me a troll if you like.

    I sold the car on 12 February 2004.

    The purchaser altered the address and date of sale to: Oak Tree Car
    Sales, 208 Bromley Road, Catford and 4/4/04. Oak Tree Car Sales does
    not exist and 208 Bromley Rd. is Catford Bus Garage.

    The alleged contravention occurred between 12 February and 4 April
    2004.

  14. Sanni Abacha said:

    On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 14:53:00 +0000, Tilly <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:
    Sanni Abacha said:

    On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 11:27:21 +0000, Tilly <[email hidden]>
    wrote:

    >DVLA sent me a copy of the registration document, the portion I should
    >have returned. The date of sale had been tippexed out and the address
    >of the new owner had been altered to that of Catford Bus Garage.

    If the address is of Catford Bus Garage why did they contact you for
    the congestion charge/parking fee? Sounds like a troll to me.
    pete

    Call me a troll if you like.

    I sold the car on 12 February 2004.

    The purchaser altered the address and date of sale to: Oak Tree Car
    Sales, 208 Bromley Road, Catford and 4/4/04. Oak Tree Car Sales does
    not exist and 208 Bromley Rd. is Catford Bus Garage.

    The alleged contravention occurred between 12 February and 4 April
    2004.

    In that case DVLA have been notified that you are/were not the owner.
    Why should they come to you and even more interesting why did you even
    bother with the demand. Do they suspect that you altered the documents
    before 'you' sent them to DVLA and after the charging issue? If not
    why contact you?
    pete

    DVLA did not come to me, I wrote to them so that I could prove that I
    was not the owner of the car. Unfortunately I had sent the wrong
    portion of the registration document.

    Initially I pooh-poohed the demand. It was later that I realised DVLA
    had not received the Notification of Sale or Transfer (NOST) document,
    and the matter became more urgent for me to resolve.

    It wasn't until DVLA sent me a copy of the NOST document that I
    realised my mistake and that the new owner had changed the details.

    I suggest you read the partial adjudicator's decision posted to get a
    clearer picture.

    I couldn't make this up if I tried.

  15. in message <[email hidden]>, "wafflycat"

    wafflesATv21netDOTcoDOTuk ('') said:


    "Tilly" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    This has happened in Norfolk, where various aged persons who never
    drive outside of their immediate locality have received notification
    that they didn't pay a Londson congestion charge due. Even thought
    they've been able to prove beyond reasonable doubt that they could not
    possibly have been in London etc., etc., etc., They were hassled &
    threatened that they were liable. Cue contacting media... Amazing how
    stuff got dropped quite quickly.

    Methinks you need to be incontact with your local press & TV..

    I think one of the horrible tory rags - the Daily Wail or that dreadful
    London evening paper - would absolutely love the photograph of you on
    top of a hill in the Highlands whilst driving in London. Just the sort
    of story they like, and with a pretty picture to boot.

    Give it a try - it can't hurt.

    --
    [email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

    ;; I'll have a proper rant later, when I get the time.

  16. Just zis Guy said:


    Have they got round to apologising for Matrix Churchill, then? Trying
    to withhold evidence in criminal trials in order to cover up for
    ministers lying to parliament sounds about as unfair as it gets to me.

    But at least we didn't go to war on those lies.

    Tony

  17. x-no-archive: yes

    i would let them take you to court, then let everyone in the court see how
    futile this charge (and followup) system is.

  18. Sanni Abacha said:

    On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 15:32:53 +0000, Tilly <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    DVLA did not come to me, I wrote to them so that I could prove that I
    was not the owner of the car. Unfortunately I had sent the wrong
    portion of the registration document.

    I meant why did those wanting your money come after you when the car
    was 'officially' owned by Catford Bus Garage? I can only assume they
    believe you altered the document or something similar. There was no
    reason for them to come after you in the first place.
    pete

    The alleged infringement took place on 19 February 2004. The transfer
    document was altered to date 4 April 2004. DVLA had me as the
    registered keeper, and passed my details to TfL.

  19. Tilly wrote:

    Just a thought - I don't think you have a problem after all. TfL are
    the people who levy the charge. They have said they are not going to
    pursue it. PATS are the independent appeals body who arbitrate between
    the TfL and owner in a dispute (and have ruled against TfL in 90% of
    appeals).

    Therefore I think you should be all clear. PATS have said they do not
    support your appeal and TfL can charge you but TfL have already agreed
    in the meantime that you do not have to pay. So all OK....I think.

    Tony

  20. On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 14:53:00 +0000, Tilly <[email hidden]>

    wrote in message : said:

    The purchaser altered the address and date of sale to: Oak Tree Car
    Sales, 208 Bromley Road, Catford and 4/4/04. Oak Tree Car Sales does
    not exist and 208 Bromley Rd. is Catford Bus Garage.

    I'm guessing that the purchaser either is or sold it on to a dodgy
    trader. I sold one car to a trader who tried to take the both bits of
    the registration document and asked me not to put the mileage in
    (needless to say I did). I checked the address he'd written and it
    turned out not to exist. A couple of years later I had a query from
    VMC asking me for the last recorded mileage. I told them it was
    (IIRC) 140k and every inch of it showed, and they came back asking me
    to confirm because the last recorded mileage did not tally. It had
    been reduced to under 70. Since the car was absolutely knackered when
    I sold it I'm guessing it was rung, but you never know, someone might
    not have spotted the worn-smooth interior.

    Guy
    --
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

    "To every complex problem there is a solution which is
    simple, neat and wrong" - HL Mencken

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