Heras story

Dan Connelly wrote:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/browse_frm/thread/c9831dfec8385100/62ea749dfd5f2bc1?hl=en#62ea749dfd5f2bc1

Euphemisms:

"wind tunnel testing"
"altitude training camp"
"super-motivated"
"matured as a rider"

gym.gravity said:

Dan Connelly wrote:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/browse_frm/thread/c9831dfec8385100/62ea749dfd5f2bc1?hl=en#62ea749dfd5f2bc1

Euphemisms:

"wind tunnel testing"
"altitude training camp"
"super-motivated"
"matured as a rider"

Do you think Heras only doped for the ITT? Was Heras clean in 2000? Did
his climbing improve since then?

Jenko, who is not aware of any doping technique that only improves
performance in TTs

"Jenko" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

gym.gravity said:

Dan Connelly wrote:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/browse_frm/thread/c9831dfec8385100/62ea749dfd5f2bc1?hl=en#62ea749dfd5f2bc1

Euphemisms:

"wind tunnel testing"
"altitude training camp"
"super-motivated"
"matured as a rider"

Do you think Heras only doped for the ITT? Was Heras clean in 2000? Did
his climbing improve since then?

Jenko, who is not aware of any doping technique that only improves
performance in TTs

It's also possible that Heras, without EPO, would have been climbing as well
during the vuelta as he had during the tour. In that case, both his TT and
climbing ability would have been increased by the doping. There is reason to
believe this is true because he performed better in both disciplines
compared to a few weeks earlier, although it is impossible to prove what
improvements were because of doping. But generally, Heras was doing far
better in all respects in Spain, and the fact that he is known as a climber
makes little difference for the fact that he rather suddenly did better in
that discipline, too. This also gave rise to some suspicions, I was suprised
at how frank Flemish commentator Michel Wuyts voiced his own (during the
vuelta).

Jonathan v.d. Sluis said:

Quoted message said:

Jenko, who is not aware of any doping technique that only improves
performance in TTs

It's also possible that Heras, without EPO, would have been climbing as well
during the vuelta as he had during the tour. In that case, both his TT and
climbing ability would have been increased by the doping. There is reason to
believe this is true because he performed better in both disciplines
compared to a few weeks earlier, although it is impossible to prove what
improvements were because of doping. But generally, Heras was doing far
better in all respects in Spain, and the fact that he is known as a climber
makes little difference for the fact that he rather suddenly did better in
that discipline, too. This also gave rise to some suspicions, I was suprised
at how frank Flemish commentator Michel Wuyts voiced his own (during the
vuelta).

Well stated. An ITT is just a more sensitive measure of individual "fitness"
than performance in mass-start races, especially comparing year-to-year.

Dan

Dan Connelly said:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/browse_frm/thread/c9831dfec8385100/62ea749dfd5f2bc1?hl=en#62ea749dfd5f2bc1

gym.gravity said:

Euphemisms:

"wind tunnel testing"
"altitude training camp"
"super-motivated"
"matured as a rider"

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/browse_frm/thread/8e51e9f705d24ef2/91e7fd3229d7b1f8?q=glossary&rnum=5#91e7fd3229d7b1f8

Jenko said:

Jenko, who is not aware of any doping technique that only improves
performance in TTs

TTs (especially with tailwinds) hang you out more than mass start racing,
so relative differences can be more noticeable.

Jonathan v.d. Sluis said:

It's also possible that Heras, without EPO, would have been climbing as well
during the vuelta as he had during the tour. In that case, both his TT and
climbing ability would have been increased by the doping.

That's precisely my point. Since Heras was not a better climber in 2005
than in 2000, then his ITT improvement cannot be attributed to doping.
Unless you think that:
- Heras doped for the mountains but not for the ITTs in 2000
- Heras doped for the the ITTs but not for the mountains in 2005
- Heras weighs more now than in 2000
- EPO only improves performance in ITTs

Jenko

Robert Chung said:

Jenko said:

Jenko, who is not aware of any doping technique that only improves
performance in TTs

TTs (especially with tailwinds) hang you out more than mass start racing,
so relative differences can be more noticeable.

Fair enough, but I still maintain that Heras has never been as dominant
in the climbs as in 2000. I believe he doped as much back then as in
the latest Vuelta. That's why I don't see how doping can explain his
ITT improvement. I'm not defending Heras here as much as any rider
which suddenly starts mastering time-trials (think Basso).

Jenko

"Jenko" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

That's precisely my point. Since Heras was not a better climber in 2005
than in 2000, then his ITT improvement cannot be attributed to doping.
Unless you think that:
- Heras doped for the mountains but not for the ITTs in 2000
- Heras doped for the the ITTs but not for the mountains in 2005
- Heras weighs more now than in 2000
- EPO only improves performance in ITTs

Jenko

Time trial performance does not diminish with age as rapidly as climbing
performance.

Didn't you think Jenko made a pertinent point?

Do we need to remind people that Lance finished quite a way back in the
field in TT - supposedly one of his strong suits in the '93, '94 and
'95 Tours?

Then we see him getting wind tunnel training, position changes, aero
bike changes etc. and he starts setting best times. Not the
overwhelming victories of Indurain but better than most.

After similar reports of Heras taking exactly the same steps we see a
significant improvement in Heras ITT performances until his times seem
to rank similar to the rated output which his climbing has shown him to
have.

Now we see him accused of doping and more peculiar the statement that
ALTHOUGH the B Sample has been noted to be "questionable" the UCI
proclaims a "non-negative" to be effectively a positive. This despite
findings from other controlling bodies that natural EPO can test as
rhEPO under NORMAL conditions of extreme athletic stress. And despite
the fact that Heras had the race tied up at that point and tested
negative previously.

But it is interesting to see those who are really quick to spring to
"judgement".

Carl Sundquist said:

Time trial performance does not diminish with age as rapidly as climbing
performance.

You mean W / CdA does not diminish with age as rapidly as W / Kg. Is
that true? Any references? Is it because riders do wind-tunnel testing
and mature as a cyclist? If so, that would be consistent with Heras
Vuelta results this year.

Jenko

Tom Kunich said:

Do we need to remind people that Lance finished quite a way back in the
field in TT - supposedly one of his strong suits in the '93, '94 and
'95 Tours?

Then we see him getting wind tunnel training, position changes, aero
bike changes etc. and he starts setting best times. Not the
overwhelming victories of Indurain but better than most.

Lance wasn't trying to win the Tour time trials back in the early 90s.
Time trials were only touted as his strength because he hadn't shaken
off the triathlete image and because he was strong enough in general to
trounce the competition in something like the Tour of Trump.

Changes in his "preparation" and "focus" are why he started winning
Tour time trials.

Re: "Now we see him accused of doping and more peculiar the statement
that
ALTHOUGH the B Sample has been noted to be "questionable" the UCI
proclaims a "non-negative" to be effectively a positive. This despite
findings from other controlling bodies that natural EPO can test as
rhEPO under NORMAL conditions of extreme athletic stress. And despite
the fact that Heras had the race tied up at that point and tested
negative previously."

B sample was positive. Earlier samples were very close to the cutoff
for positive but did not quite make it so get called negative. In all
likelihood, the earlier samples were positive too but the team doctors
know how to milk the system for all they can.

For natural Epo to test positive as rhEpo, other factors are needed as
per Beke - ie specific A1ACT proteinuria (which is different to generic
"proteinuria"😉, & bacterial contamination. It would be very easy for
Heras & his team to prove that either or both of these were present.

What about:

"Got testicular cancer and now I can produce almost 7Watt/kg instead of
5.5?"

"gym.gravity" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dan Connelly wrote:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/browse_frm/thread/c9831dfec8385100/62ea749dfd5f2bc1?hl=en#62ea749dfd5f2bc1

Euphemisms:

"wind tunnel testing"
"altitude training camp"
"super-motivated"
"matured as a rider"

Patricio Carlos said:

Earlier samples were very close to the cutoff
for positive but did not quite make it so get called negative.

You are making that up, aren't you?

(or maybe you are referring to the first B sample test, which wasn't
positive or negative, just unconclusive because the image lacked focus,
not because of any cutoff)

Jenko

"Jenko" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Carl Sundquist said:

Time trial performance does not diminish with age as rapidly as climbing
performance.

You mean W / CdA does not diminish with age as rapidly as W / Kg. Is
that true? Any references? Is it because riders do wind-tunnel testing
and mature as a cyclist? If so, that would be consistent with Heras
Vuelta results this year.

Jenko

"Jenko" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Carl Sundquist said:

Time trial performance does not diminish with age as rapidly as climbing
performance.

You mean W / CdA does not diminish with age as rapidly as W / Kg. Is
that true? Any references? Is it because riders do wind-tunnel testing
and mature as a cyclist? If so, that would be consistent with Heras
Vuelta results this year.

Jenko

Define "mature"

"Carl Sundquist" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:TTljf.11050$QW2.8537@dukeread08...

Quoted message said:

"Jenko" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

That's precisely my point. Since Heras was not a better climber in 2005
than in 2000, then his ITT improvement cannot be attributed to doping.
Unless you think that:
- Heras doped for the mountains but not for the ITTs in 2000
- Heras doped for the the ITTs but not for the mountains in 2005
- Heras weighs more now than in 2000
- EPO only improves performance in ITTs

Jenko

Time trial performance does not diminish with age as rapidly as climbing
performance.

It depends. It doesn't hold for "natural" climbers like Bartali, Bahamontes,
Poulidor, Van Impe, etc.

Benjo