Help with rear wheel pulling out?

Chuck said:

Hi folks:

I've been struggling with my road bike. It's a two year old

Tommasini, with

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full ultegra gruppo. Wheels are ultegra hubs with Mavic open 4's,

nothing

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fancy.
I've been having trouble with the rear wheel pulling out of the

dropout on

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the drive side. Almost any amount of pressure on the pedals causes

the

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wheel to shift to the left to the point where the tire rubs on the
chainstay. In it's current condition, it is unrideable.

I've tried tightening the quick release, almost to the point where I

almost

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can't close it. That helps a little, but not much. I've also tried

a new

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rear quick release, a good quality one. Same results. I've cleaned

and

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degreased all the teeth on the hubs, the quick release, and the

(chromed)

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dropouts to make sure they weren't greasy. Same result. I made

double sure

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that ends of the axle aren't protruding past the dropout as many of

you

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suggested. They are not, they only go about 1/2 way through the

dropout on

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each side, and they're evenly spaced. I made sure both quick

releases are

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closing fully, and they are.

Does the hub/frame fit seem pretty normal (ie, are the rear spacing of
the frame and the "over-locknut-dimension" of the hub almost
identical?) How's the dropout alignment on the frame (need a shop tool
to check this unless it's overtly terrible, in which case that'd
probably be your problem).

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So, on a whim I tried putting on my girlfriend's rear wheel (a Rolf

Vector),

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which has a shimano 105 quick release (so it fits on her trainer).

Now,

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with her wheel in, the bike works perfectly, and the wheel doesn't

slip at

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all with the quick release adjusted normally.

What about your wheel on a different bike? What about your girlfriend's
QR on your wheel?

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So, I think I've got it narrowed down to the problem being the

original rear

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hub. Maybe the teeth are worn down too much where it contacts the

inside of

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the dropout? Can that little part be replaced?

Yup, any LBS should have suitable replacement locknuts. However, even
if the locknut surface is really messed up, I sort of doubt that's
what's causing the problem - there are cheap QR hubs without teeth on
their locknuts. My impression is that the teeth are there to assist,
whereas if your wheel is slipping with minimal peddling force than it's
probably just not being clamped much at all. If the locknut teeth look
worn down though, I suppose you might as well try that. I do agree with
you that the problem is somewhere with the hub. I would check the hub
for signs of loose locknuts or cones, a bent/broken axle, or anything
else amiss with the axle. If any part of the axleset (or dropout or QR)
is managing to be a lot less rigid than it's supposed to be, that could
cause this problem - it's just about the only thing, I think.

Or, am I stuck buying a new

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wheel or wheelset? I'm kinda nervous about dropping the cash on a

new rear

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wheel or wheelset without some feedback. But I will. I'm so

frustrated,

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I'm about ready to toss this bike off a bridge and go buy a new one.

I just

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can't stand losing any more road riding time now that the weather is
starting to get nice.

What do you all think about this? Have I made any sense? Have I

missed

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something??

Thanks for listening,
Chuck

Chuck said:

I've been struggling with my road bike. It's a two year old Tommasini, with
full ultegra gruppo. Wheels are ultegra hubs with Mavic open 4's, nothing
fancy.
I've been having trouble with the rear wheel pulling out of the dropout on
the drive side. Almost any amount of pressure on the pedals causes the
wheel to shift to the left to the point where the tire rubs on the
chainstay. In it's current condition, it is unrideable.

I've tried tightening the quick release, almost to the point where I almost
can't close it. That helps a little, but not much. I've also tried a new
rear quick release, a good quality one. Same results. I've cleaned and
degreased all the teeth on the hubs, the quick release, and the (chromed)
dropouts to make sure they weren't greasy. Same result. I made double sure
that ends of the axle aren't protruding past the dropout as many of you
suggested. They are not, they only go about 1/2 way through the dropout on
each side, and they're evenly spaced. I made sure both quick releases are
closing fully, and they are.

So, on a whim I tried putting on my girlfriend's rear wheel (a Rolf Vector),
which has a shimano 105 quick release (so it fits on her trainer). Now,
with her wheel in, the bike works perfectly, and the wheel doesn't slip at
all with the quick release adjusted normally.

So, I think I've got it narrowed down to the problem being the original rear
hub. Maybe the teeth are worn down too much where it contacts the inside of
the dropout? Can that little part be replaced? Or, am I stuck buying a new
wheel or wheelset? I'm kinda nervous about dropping the cash on a new rear
wheel or wheelset without some feedback. But I will. I'm so frustrated,
I'm about ready to toss this bike off a bridge and go buy a new one. I just
can't stand losing any more road riding time now that the weather is
starting to get nice.

What do you all think about this? Have I made any sense? Have I missed
something??

You're on the right track - it's the clamping force of the
skewer usually.

(That can sometimes be traced to a smooth-faced hub locknut.
Your Shimano's are serrated, and you didn't wear them down
in 2 seasons.)

Did you oil the cam inside your skewer? Try that first. It
usually cures the problem. That cam is trying to translate
your pressure on the handle to a lateral pull through the
hub. Dry cam faces have more drag than you'd at first imagine.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Chuck said:

My next move will definitely be to put her quick release on my wheel and see
what happens. It hadn't occured to me to try that.

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Please note that *none* of the newer-style external cam quick releases

work

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as well as the traditional old-style versions. They may work well enough
with a vertical dropout and lubrication applied to their pivoting

surfaces,

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but I have yet to find one that provides anywhere near the clamping force

of

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the traditional style (without having to apply more force to the lever

than

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would seem reasonable).

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"Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

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The obvious isn't clear to me- did you try the '105 rear quick release

with

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your Ultegra wheel? If that works, a new quick release is a heck of a lot
less-expensive than a new rear wheel!

Chuck said:

Well, the new quick release I bought was indeed one of those newer external
cam types. (velomax) It was relatively cheap, and I figured it was worth a
shot.

In my earlier reply I assumed that "full Ultegra" meant "all
Shimano Ultegra equipment".

Yes, by all means get a traditional style steel skewer. And
lubricate the cam, too!

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 00:53:09 GMT, "Chuck" <[email hidden]>

may have said:

...on a whim I tried putting on my girlfriend's rear wheel (a Rolf Vector),
which has a shimano 105 quick release (so it fits on her trainer). Now,
with her wheel in, the bike works perfectly, and the wheel doesn't slip at
all with the quick release adjusted normally.

So, I think I've got it narrowed down to the problem being the original rear
hub. Maybe the teeth are worn down too much where it contacts the inside of
the dropout? Can that little part be replaced? Or, am I stuck buying a new
wheel or wheelset?

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What do you all think about this? Have I made any sense? Have I missed
something??

If the other wheel clamps OK, then there has to be a problem with the
skewer, the surface that it clamps to, or the position of the axle.
First things first, then. Look at the skewer springs. Large End Out?
Just *one* at each end? (This is *so* basic that I've seen it missed
a few times.) Then, I would try adjusting the cones to where there
are just two threads (at most) of the axle protruding past the locknut
on the right end. I would also check the inside surface of the right
dropout for scarring that may have taken place due to the original
wheel's slippage.

My suspicion is that there's something revoltingly simple wrong here
which might be spotted in short order by having a different eye
looking at the bike. I say this because of the number of times over
the years that *I* have had something vexing turn out to be an
infuriatingly obvious simple thing that I wasn't looking at because I
was sure the problem was a few millimeters to one side of it.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

"Werehatrack" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

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On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 00:53:09 GMT, "Chuck" <[email hidden]>
may have said:

If the other wheel clamps OK, then there has to be a problem with the
skewer, the surface that it clamps to, or the position of the axle.
First things first, then. Look at the skewer springs. Large End Out?

Yes, on both sets of skewers.

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Just *one* at each end? (This is *so* basic that I've seen it missed
a few times.)

Yes. One spring, each side.

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Then, I would try adjusting the cones to where there
are just two threads (at most) of the axle protruding past the locknut
on the right end.

Are you saying I should shift the axle to the left? It's almost perfectly
evenly spaced as it is.

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I would also check the inside surface of the right
dropout for scarring that may have taken place due to the original
wheel's slippage.

There isn't any, just some slight indentations in the chrome that match the
locknut.

Which begs the question, why would they use such a slippery surface for a
dropout? Wouldn't it be safer/better to use some sort of rough or matte
texture as opposed to chroming? I mean, the chrome looks good, and lasts
better than painted dropouts, but it seems to me the painted ones on my gf's
bike grip the serrations better.

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My suspicion is that there's something revoltingly simple wrong here
which might be spotted in short order by having a different eye
looking at the bike.

Exactly why I posted. Trying to save a trip to the bike shop. The only
decent one is miles away in horrible traffic.

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I say this because of the number of times over
the years that *I* have had something vexing turn out to be an
infuriatingly obvious simple thing that I wasn't looking at because I
was sure the problem was a few millimeters to one side of it.

I know the feeling.

Thanks for the feedback!
C.

A couple of things to check. The locknut on your wheel should have knurling
on the side that would be against the dropout. Make sure the locknut was
installed properly. If not, you may want to replace it with one that does
have knurling on it. The knurling helps it bite into the dropout and keep
it in place. The other thing to check is your QR. You want to get one where
that faces that bit into the dropouts are made out of steel, not aluminum.
Hope that helps.
----------
Alex

On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 19:15:14 GMT, "Chuck" <[email hidden]>

may have said:

Are you saying I should shift the axle to the left? It's almost perfectly
evenly spaced as it is.

Then leave it alone, and concentrate on getting the clamping force up
where it's effective.

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I would also check the inside surface of the right
dropout for scarring that may have taken place due to the original
wheel's slippage.

There isn't any, just some slight indentations in the chrome that match the
locknut.

Chrome. Ugh. Well, there's part of the problem; you need a higher
clamping force than usual.

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Which begs the question, why would they use such a slippery surface for a
dropout? Wouldn't it be safer/better to use some sort of rough or matte
texture as opposed to chroming?

Painted steel works well. Chroming is a practice that has its roots
in tradition and fashion, not necessity, when it comes to bike frames.

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I mean, the chrome looks good, and lasts
better than painted dropouts, but it seems to me the painted ones on my gf's
bike grip the serrations better.

Yup.

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My suspicion is that there's something revoltingly simple wrong here
which might be spotted in short order by having a different eye
looking at the bike.

Exactly why I posted. Trying to save a trip to the bike shop. The only
decent one is miles away in horrible traffic.

Quoted message said:

I say this because of the number of times over
the years that *I* have had something vexing turn out to be an
infuriatingly obvious simple thing that I wasn't looking at because I
was sure the problem was a few millimeters to one side of it.

I know the feeling.

Yeah, it's real familiar here too. I think I'd take some of the
advice already advanced by other posters, and make a run at oiling the
clamping end of the original skewer, working it back and forth a bunch
to get it nice and free, and then giving that another shot. Run the
non-clamp nut to the point of contact when the lever is straight out,
and then mash hard. That procedure has never left one loose for me
yet.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

"Chuck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:VDSPd.29325$uc.25636@trnddc03...

I got a new Ultegra skewer, and it seems to solve the problem, at least on
flat ground. I'll have to get out tomorrow (yay!) and try it out on a
couple of steep hills to make sure.

I still have two questions. #1, why do they sell expensive alloy skewers
that don't clamp worth a darn? The expensive QR's I bought don't hold worth
a darn compared to a regular steel Shimano 105 or Ultegra skewer.

And, #2, why don't they make dropouts with a 'grippier' surface? Seems to
me chroming a dropout isn't the best for holding the clamping force of a QR.
It might look nice, but functionally doesn't seem to be the best
arrangement.

Thanks to you all for the help and suggestions.

C.

Chuck said:

"Chuck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:VDSPd.29325$uc.25636@trnddc03...

I got a new Ultegra skewer, and it seems to solve the problem, at
least on flat ground. I'll have to get out tomorrow (yay!) and try
it out on a couple of steep hills to make sure.

I still have two questions. #1, why do they sell expensive alloy
skewers that don't clamp worth a darn? The expensive QR's I bought
don't hold worth a darn compared to a regular steel Shimano 105 or
Ultegra skewer.

And, #2, why don't they make dropouts with a 'grippier' surface?
Seems to me chroming a dropout isn't the best for holding the
clamping force of a QR. It might look nice, but functionally doesn't
seem to be the best arrangement.

Thanks to you all for the help and suggestions.

C.

To answer your questions: #1, because they can, and because 'you' will buy
them. #2, a 'grippier' surface isn't needed if you use a good QR. The
Italians have been chroming their chainstays for decades and until the
advent of the 'expensive alloy skewers' no one seemed to have a problem.

On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 00:37:18 GMT, "Chuck" <[email hidden]>

may have said:

I still have two questions. #1, why do they sell expensive alloy skewers
that don't clamp worth a darn?

Because people will buy them.

Quoted message said:

And, #2, why don't they make dropouts with a 'grippier' surface?

A few bikes have been built with something like that from time to
time, but most manufacturers rely on the serrated locknut on the axle
instead. I have never seen any surface grip patterning on the outside
of the dropout, and even on the inside it's very rare.

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Seems to
me chroming a dropout isn't the best for holding the clamping force of a QR.
It might look nice, but functionally doesn't seem to be the best
arrangement.

Yup, but sometimes Tradition and fashion override good engineering
practice...and every once in a while, bad old ideas get tried out
again because enough time has elapsed to allow enough people to forget
that they were mistakes last time as well.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Chuck said:

"Chuck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:VDSPd.29325$uc.25636@trnddc03...

I got a new Ultegra skewer, and it seems to solve the problem, at least on
flat ground. I'll have to get out tomorrow (yay!) and try it out on a
couple of steep hills to make sure.

I still have two questions. #1, why do they sell expensive alloy skewers
that don't clamp worth a darn? The expensive QR's I bought don't hold worth
a darn compared to a regular steel Shimano 105 or Ultegra skewer.

And, #2, why don't they make dropouts with a 'grippier' surface? Seems to
me chroming a dropout isn't the best for holding the clamping force of a QR.
It might look nice, but functionally doesn't seem to be the best
arrangement.

Yes, a normal skewer works just fine (even better with some
lube in the cam) even on shiny chromed steel

That's exactly why 'they' sell dysfunctional ones for 4x the
price.

Nice to meet you, Chuck. Stick around awhile. Yours was a
typical 'emperor without clothes' moment. Our industry is
great at 'improving' things until they no longer work!

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

In article <2vbQd.27292$uc.21606@trnddc09>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

"Chuck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:VDSPd.29325$uc.25636@trnddc03...
I got a new Ultegra skewer, and it seems to solve the problem, at least on
flat ground. I'll have to get out tomorrow (yay!) and try it out on a
couple of steep hills to make sure.

I still have two questions. #1, why do they sell expensive alloy skewers
that don't clamp worth a darn?

Because someone is buying them.

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The expensive QR's I bought don't hold worth
a darn compared to a regular steel Shimano 105 or Ultegra skewer.

Just because it is expensive does not mean it is better than the cheaper
stuff.

Quoted message said:

And, #2, why don't they make dropouts with a 'grippier' surface? Seems to
me chroming a dropout isn't the best for holding the clamping force of a QR.
It might look nice, but functionally doesn't seem to be the best
arrangement.

A steel serrated nut will bite quite nicely into your chrome dropout.

What is happening is that most bikes not have vertical dropouts, so that
even a weak skewer will keep the wheel in place. When you try to use these
crappy skewers on a bike with horizontal dropouts, you run into problems.
What is even worse is that some bike shops will play ignorant when you ask
them about this.
-----------
Alex

"Joshua Lee" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

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Chuck,

I had the same problem on a used road bike I had bought. The pro shop

found

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the problem right away in my case. I hope I can describe it properly: the
last nut that goes on the axle on the DS was inverted. Whoever did the hub
greasing last had re-installed the nut backwards. The previous owner had

the

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skewer real tight to hold, but it would still slip under hard efforts.

This may not be the case with you (I read the thread quickly) and it may

be

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just the skewer but it doesn't hurt to check.

Josh

Aye, I can picture exactly what you are saying That would put the knurling
the on lock nut on the inside of the hub, instead of the outside, facing the
inside of the dropout. Or, something like that. :-)

Fortunately, my hubs are assembled correctly, but thanks for the suggestion
anyway!

Cheers,
C.