Help With Kick

Really bad kickers kick mostly from the knee, doing what some call
'bicycling' kick movements. Combined with inflexible ankles, that sort
of kick can actually drag you backwards.

So you want to at least kick more using your hips and keeping the
up-and-down part of the kick compact. Don't bend your knees so much.

Really good kickers can straighten their feet like flippers, or even
farther. You can train to stretch your feet and ankles by using
flippers and other devices. But, stretching out your ankles will take
time, especially if they're tight from running.

Agree with all advise given by Man o' tea. Also, focus on trying to
point your toes so that they'll align with the rest of your legs. Grab
your kickboard from the end with your arms extended over it and your
elbows almost locked and arch your back. The arching of your back will
force your hamstrings up to the surface, preventing your legs from
sinking. However, if you have inflexible hamstrings and lower back
you'll get cramps on your hamstrings. Kickboard drills will teach you
to arch your back and give you hamstring flexibility

Andres

I'd suggest you spend some time streamline kicking on your stomach and
your back. Your body position with a board is a bit different than
your position when you swim. So, by investing some time kicking
streamline, you might get more out of it than board kicking at the
moment. A snorkel would be helpful for streamline kicking with your
face in.

A good pair of swimmers fins are OK too.

Dave said:

Hi peeps

Always done some kind of fitness routine but fairly new to swimming,
non swimmer 8 months ago.

My kick on the crawl is pretty [censored]...I know about 85/90 percent of
propulsion is from your arms but my kick is terrible. I often see
people fairly skimming along with a kickboard and I wanna be like
that. Any tips?

tia

Dave

Conventional wisdom is that the kick is the toughest thing to improve.
In fact, to a first order degree, you really can't improve it. You can
get into decent kick shape, but you may find that your speed does not
improve. I believe a decent time for kicking is 50 yards in one
minute. However, as you say, some people seem to be kicking that
distance quite quickly, maybe in the high 40's, and some even in the
low 40s', which is a bit mind boggling to me. It's unlikely you'll
ever get to that level unless you have oversized feet and extremely
flexible ankles.

Kicking is fun - I do all the kick sets as hard as I can. But you may
consider taking the opposite tact. Try kicking as little as possible
during your whole stroke swimming. I mean don't kick at all if you can
do it. You might be surprised at how close your swim speed is to what
you achieve while kicking. Those thrashing legs can create lots of
drag and provide very little propulsion. The upside is you will be
much less out of breath, and also will have lots of energy and leg
strength for a good break-out from the wall. Then gradually add some
slight kicking back in where it feels natural. You'll have to arch
your lower back to keep your hips up, or "press your T" if you're a TI
guy. In any case, it IS possible to have good posture in the water
without kicking.

I rarely use fins anymore. Once again, conventional wisdom is that
they will help stretch out your feet and ankles. Well, maybe a little,
but I've done lots of sets with them and the stretching result has been
pretty small. People who use fins on the kick sets usually loaf,
including myself. Easy to cruise up and down the pool faster than most
other kickers. So that's why I don't use them anymore. Also, the
frequency of kicking is so much slower than when you actually swim,
it's really quite differnt.

I love kickboards. Having a strong core body is crucial to swimming.
You want to paddle a "surfboard", not a deflated water mattress across
the pool. Kickboards will help develop abs and lower back for that
posture.

Anyways, my two cents ...
Eric

Coach_Ryan said:

I'd suggest you spend some time streamline kicking on your stomach and
your back.

Thanks coach...like I say I'm pretty new to this so...by streamline
kicking do you mean stretched out with no float but kicking?

Thanks agan

Dave

Quoted message said:

Dave said:

Hi peeps

Always done some kind of fitness routine but fairly new to swimming,
non swimmer 8 months ago.

My kick on the crawl is pretty [censored]...I know about 85/90 percent of
propulsion is from your arms but my kick is terrible. I often see
people fairly skimming along with a kickboard and I wanna be like
that. Any tips?

tia

Dave

snipped

Quoted message said:

and extremely
flexible ankles.

Been told my ankles look pretty stiff though read somewhere that fins
might help there?

Quoted message said:

Try kicking as little as possible
during your whole stroke swimming. I mean don't kick at all if you can
do it.

Pullbouy?

Quoted message said:

or "press your T" if you're a TI
guy.

Ah...lost me there I'm afraid, could you explain?

Quoted message said:

Anyways, my two cents ...
Eric

Or as we say in England "My two penny worth"

Thanks Eric

Dave

Pull buoys, or Pull floats, are small pieces of styrofoam or something
else that floats, that you hold between your legs while you swim. The
floats raise your legs, so you don't have to kick.

TI offers swimming instruction: http://www.totalimmersion.co.uk/

Maybe a ha'penny worth. :- )

"Coach_Ryan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'd suggest you spend some time streamline kicking on your stomach and
your back. Your body position with a board is a bit different than
your position when you swim. So, by investing some time kicking
streamline, you might get more out of it than board kicking at the
moment. A snorkel would be helpful for streamline kicking with your
face in.

A good pair of swimmers fins are OK too.

A little off-topic Ryan, but were you at Junior Nationals this past weekend?
Just wanted to complement you on Bradley Ally's swimming - he truly was
outstanding. We thought he got the shaft for not winning performance of the
meet for that 4IM...Righi was good, but not as good as your boy. Nice job!

Steve

http://www.lakecountryswimming.com

Dave said:

Quoted message said:

Dave said:

Hi peeps

Always done some kind of fitness routine but fairly new to

swimming,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

non swimmer 8 months ago.

My kick on the crawl is pretty [censored]...I know about 85/90 percent

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

propulsion is from your arms but my kick is terrible. I often see
people fairly skimming along with a kickboard and I wanna be like
that. Any tips?

tia

Dave

snipped

Quoted message said:

and extremely
flexible ankles.

Been told my ankles look pretty stiff though read somewhere that fins
might help there?

Quoted message said:

Try kicking as little as possible
during your whole stroke swimming. I mean don't kick at all if you

can

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

do it.

Pullbouy?

I'm not talking about using a pullbuoy. For me, if I concentrate on
keeping the lowest muscles in my back tight, my hips will stay at the
surface with minimal or no kicking. It's the same muscles you use when
you do a kick-set on a kickboard. After all, when on a kickboard, your
upper body is well out of the water and yet you can also break the
surface of the water with your heels - so your back is clearly arched
and tight. That's why kickboard sets help develop good swim posture.
(Larry Weisenthal's brilliant idea, not mine)

Most of the swimmers I pass in slower lanes look "floppy" to me. Body
not taut. I try to swim with minimal kick from the hips, fairly
straight legs, tight core body with slightly arched lower back (the
muscles just above your tail bone). Seems to help.

Cheers (Isn't that what they say in England?)
Eric

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dave said:

Hi peeps

Always done some kind of fitness routine but fairly new to swimming,
non swimmer 8 months ago.

My kick on the crawl is pretty [censored]...I know about 85/90 percent of
propulsion is from your arms but my kick is terrible. I often see
people fairly skimming along with a kickboard and I wanna be like
that. Any tips?

tia

Dave

Conventional wisdom is that the kick is the toughest thing to improve.
In fact, to a first order degree, you really can't improve it. You can
get into decent kick shape, but you may find that your speed does not
improve. I believe a decent time for kicking is 50 yards in one
minute. However, as you say, some people seem to be kicking that
distance quite quickly, maybe in the high 40's, and some even in the
low 40s', which is a bit mind boggling to me. It's unlikely you'll
ever get to that level unless you have oversized feet and extremely
flexible ankles.

I can flutter kick a 50 in about 50sec, occasionally less. When I first
started swimming seriously a year and a half ago, at age of 34 my flutter
kick was going backwards. Female size 7.5 feet, not very flexible, but have
gotten a lot more flexible than they used to be.

I am have a monster kick with small, medium-flex feet. I can do 40 sec
50s kick all day. Below is my RACE-TO-THE-WALL trick to getting speedy
kick:

While doing a kick set where you can watch the clock, at 5 metres/yards
from the wall, look at clock and try hard to make it to the wall in 5
seconds from the time you looked at the clock. You can also do 10
metres/yards-10seconds.

This takes up your intensity in part of the set and keeps you motivated
when it is easy to rest too much.

Re above posts:

On 200 or shorter races I kick most of the time. Being able to make
this distance WITH a strong kick without dying is important advantage.

On longer races or swimming in workout, I kick only hard off of wall
and at end/beginning of the swim. The rest of the time I let my leg
process fatigue chemicals (what are we calling this now? Lactic Acid?
H+ ions?)

I like to kick in a range of intensities and distances and especially
to totally tire out my legs to failure at least once per week. (This
may be just particular to me--I have fast twitch legs on a slow twitch
body.)

Fins:

They are vital to improving your kick but only if you are working them
with intensity. Otherwise it is not doing you any good.

Good luck!

KP

Quoted message said:

Dave said:

Quoted message said:

Dave wrote:
> Hi peeps
>

snipped

Quoted message said:

my hips will stay at the
surface

snipped

Quoted message said:

Cheers (Isn't that what they say in England?)
Eric

You're gonna love this one...we also say "bottoms up"!!!!!

Dave

Good stuff!

Do you do the usual one arm pull into the wall while the other arm
remains on the kickboard?

Do your heels break the surface while you kick so that you create
splash, or are you one of those underwater kicker types?

I believe the notion that the legs process the lactate which the upper
body produces is NO LONGER in vogue. That makes sense to me - I never
felt better by kicking, even a very moderate one - so glad to see that
theory has fallen out of favor.

Eric

Quoted message said:

I like to kick in a range of intensities and distances and especially
to totally tire out my legs to failure at least once per week. (This
may be just particular to me--I have fast twitch legs on a slow

twitch

Quoted message said:

body.)

Yes, I am convinced you are right!! I've had that thought for awhile.

I believe you must possess a lot of fast twitch muscle fiber in your
legs to be a good kicker. That's the reason most people tire so
quickly. Runners and cyclists in particular are shocked at how quickly
they tire when they try kick sets even though they have well developed
legs. That's because they don't have a lot of fast twitch muscle
fiber.

I'm a slow twitch guy for sure - average to below average sprint and
vertical leaping ability. You can also determine your muscle make-up
if you do squats or leg press to muscular failure using a very slow
repitition rate. If it takes closed to 3 minutes to get to failure,
you are definitely slow twitch, fast twitch people will fail within a
minute and a half.

Eric

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Good stuff!

Do you do the usual one arm pull into the wall while the other arm
remains on the kickboard?

Do your heels break the surface while you kick so that you create
splash, or are you one of those underwater kicker types?

My coach likes to say 'boil the water" meaning, the heels should barely
break the surface when you;re kicking, making it look like the water is
boiling vigorously. Not completely under water, and not much movement above
the water.

He also emphasizes the proper body position, streamlined, when kicking, more
than where you feet are. If your whole body is properly streamlined, your
feet will end up in the right spot.

We also do a fair amount of vertical kicking with fins, and without. It can
be a good way to get the feel for the posture.