Help with intensity and HR

Amdi8 said:

I'm trying to follow a training program based on the book Daniel's Running Formula, however, some
things are not clicking in.

Quoted message said:

Some background: I'm 30 years old, male, weight about 145 lb and my height is 5'10". My resting HR
is 38 and max HR about 195 bpm. I've been doing cycling for many years, and only recently (a
couple of months ago) I started doing running again. My objective is to do a sub 20 minute 5K race
by the spring. I can run 5K in 23-24 minutes now.

Quoted message said:

My training consists of running 4-5 days a week. 3 days easy, 1 day threshold/tempo, 1 day
intervals.

Quoted message said:

Here's where things get weird. At an easy pace (about 9-minute mile), my heart rate is about
160-163. It definitely feels comfortable, and I can easily hold a conversation, however, it's
probably a bit on the higher side than the recommended % of HR for an easy run.

Quoted message said:

Doing intervals gets even weirder. I do 400m intervals and I try to aim for 1:34 per lap (6:16
mile pace roughly) with 30 second rest between laps. That's the recommended pace in Daniel's book
to work on VO2Max. However, the book claims that I should be spending quite a bit of time at
VO2Max (or 98%-100% HR), but I can only get up to 183-185 bpm, which is significantly lower than
my max HR.

Quoted message said:

Am I doing something wrong? Or do I need to have much better training to be able to hold my max HR
for those intervals. The book is very clear in the point that I should NOT try to go at a faster
pace for those intervals. It recommends less time between laps or longer intervals if it feels too
easy. I just don't see how I can reach max HR at that pace (and I wouldn't be able to do intervals
with only 30 second rest at a higher pace anyway).

Quoted message said:

OK, so this was a bit longer than I had hoped. I hope it makes sense. Please post if you have any
comments or suggestions on my training program and how I can improve it. Thanks!

Quoted message said:

Amdi

---The amount of rest between intervals determines what type of workout you are accomplishing. With
only 30sec rest between 400s, you are doing more of an aerobic workout/anaerobic stacker, depending
on the pace. This means that your body cannot recover enough from the previous repeat to run at
VO2max. This is expecially true for a "newer" runner. I consider 60sec even a short recovery for
400s. If you really want to get near VO2max on this workout every lap, you will need to try around
90sec recovery. Maybe up to
2min. As you get in better shape, you'll be able to shorten this up. You're not doing anything
wrong other than the recovery is too short for what you are trying to accomplish. Good
luck Andy Hass

In article said:

I'm trying to follow a training program based on the book Daniel's Running Formula, however, some
things are not clicking in.

Some background: I'm 30 years old, male, weight about 145 lb and my height is 5'10". My resting HR
is 38 and max HR about 195 bpm. I've been doing

First -- did you measure your max heart rate while running ? It's not necessarily going to be the
same running as it is while cycling.

Quoted message said:

cycling for many years, and only recently (a couple of months ago) I started doing running again.
My objective is to do a sub 20 minute 5K race by the spring. I can run 5K in 23-24 minutes now.

My training consists of running 4-5 days a week. 3 days easy, 1 day threshold/tempo, 1 day
intervals.

Here's where things get weird. At an easy pace (about 9-minute mile), my heart rate is about
160-163. It definitely feels comfortable, and I can easily hold a conversation, however, it's
probably a bit on the higher side than the recommended % of HR for an easy run.

Doing intervals gets even weirder. I do 400m intervals and I try to aim for 1:34 per lap (6:16
mile pace roughly) with 30 second rest between laps. That's the recommended pace in Daniel's book
to work on VO2Max.

I'm a tad confused about this. The impression I get is that your "I" pace should be quite a bit
slower than that for a 5k time of 23:00.

Quoted message said:

However, the book claims that I should be spending quite a bit of time at VO2Max (or 98%-100% HR),
but I can only get up to 183-185 bpm, which is significantly lower than my max HR.

Am I doing something wrong?

As the book explains, 400m isn't really long enough to get your heart rate up -- you're relying on
the cumulative effect of the 400m repeats. By the way, are you jogging between repeats, or just
resting/walking ? Your heart rate will drop much more between repeats if you don't keep moving (and
this will diminish the cumulative effect)

I would expect that in any case, the first 4 or so repeats will probably not reach your max. I think
in your case, because your resting heart rate is very low, you probably recover very quickly.

Jack Daniels recommends 3-5 minutes for these repeats, that would be 800-1200m for you. I'd
recommend using 800m repeats, then when you can get through that workout, use 1200m repeats. Longer
repeats make for a tougher workout at a given pace. They are also probably better predictors of 5k
performance.

Quoted message said:

those intervals. It recommends less time between laps or longer intervals if it feels too easy. I
just don't see how I can reach max HR at that pace

If that was really true, you could run a 5k in much faster than 23 minutes. During a 5k race, you
will get very close to your maximum heart rate.

Quoted message said:

(and I wouldn't be able to do intervals with only 30 second rest at a higher pace anyway).

If it's true that you're almost maxed out, I'd question the accuracy of your maximum heart rate. A
word on "maximum heart rate": your so-called "maximum heart rate" isn't a fixed constant. Some days
you might plateau at a lower heart rate, and not be able to reach your max ever recorded. One of the
regular posters, "Roger2k" has documented his heart rate during races in some detail, and you can
see from his posts that the maximum heart rate he reaches during those races varies quite a bit.

In other words, I wouldn't get too literal about the 98-100% max heart rate guideline. A Vo2 Max
interval workout is probably a better indicator of your maximum heart rate *under current
conditions* (your state of health, training, hydration, etc) than anything else.

But I would reiterate the recommendation that you include some lengthier repeats.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

I'm new to running with a HR monitor and have a question...

My race times are typically 5% higher than what I can do on a track or treadmill. I expect some
slowdown because of hills/heat but I think much of it is poor pacing.

Is it possible to use my heart rate during the race to maintain a steady and correct pace to improve
my race times ?

I'm trying to do a 20 min 5k also and I'm close on the track or tread but can't break 22 in a
real race.

Any suggestions for pacing on race day ?

Quoted message said:

Jack Daniels recommends 3-5 minutes for these repeats,

I did 3-5 minutes repeats of Jack Daniels once and puked my brains out.

It was days before I could run again :-)

In article said:

I'm new to running with a HR monitor and have a question...

My race times are typically 5% higher than what I can do on a track or treadmill. I expect some
slowdown because of hills/heat but I think much of it is poor pacing.

Actually, I find this unsurprising. Hills especially make a big difference. Also, on a track, you
really run 5k. In a road race, the *shortest possible path* is 5k, so you actually run slightly more
than that.

Quoted message said:

Is it possible to use my heart rate during the race to maintain a steady and correct pace to
improve my race times ?

Not really. I've monitored my heart rate during a 5k race. Up to 90% in 2 minutes, 95% after the
first mile, and indistinguishable from 100% at the 2 mile mark. This was a well-paced race with
negative splits. The problem is that there are a number of variables that influence your heart rate,
some days you might be able to get your heart rate up to 205, sometimes maybe only 200. So if you
rely on the heart rate monitor, you might be overextending or shortchanging yourself.

Quoted message said:

I'm trying to do a 20 min 5k also and I'm close on the track or tread but can't break 22 in a
real race.

Unless it's a very fast course, you will probably lose at least a minute, IMO.

Quoted message said:

Any suggestions for pacing on race day ?

(a) try to break 22 before you try to break 21.

(b) negative splits. Aim to do the first mile slightly slower than goal pace. Not so far out that
you're out of the game, but maybe 10s slower than goal pace. Chances are you will in fact do it
at exactly goal pace despite your best efforts to start carefully. You can afford to blow 10
seconds or so on the first
mile. If you pace yourself, you will be able to get them back in the last 400m. If you are
between goal pace and 10 seconds slower than goal pace after the first mile, you are in a
good position.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

"Matilda Zuckerman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'm new to running with a HR monitor and have a question...

My race times are typically 5% higher than what I can do on a track or treadmill. I expect some
slowdown because of hills/heat but I think much

of

Quoted message said:

it is poor pacing.

Is it possible to use my heart rate during the race to maintain a steady

and

Quoted message said:

correct pace to improve my race times ?

I discourage this. Noakes, amongst others, has shown that if you do that you are likely
to run slower than you would have. In studies of elite runners, those who ran a test 10K
(properly motivated) on a treadmill at a self-selected pace ran faster in the real
world. HR during the race was also higher than in trial runs.

Quoted message said:

I'm trying to do a 20 min 5k also and I'm close on the track or tread but can't break 22 in a
real race.

Any suggestions for pacing on race day ?

Depending on the course profile, set out to run each km in 4
min. In practice, I would suggest starting out a bit slower than this (4:10 perhaps). One thing I
like runners I work with do is go to the track and run their goal pace with a 1 minute rest
(walk or easy jog) between each km or mile. If they cannot do this, chances are slim that they
will be able to put 5 or 10 1km's together in a race at the same pace.

In article said:

Quoted message said:

Jack Daniels recommends 3-5 minutes for these repeats,

I did 3-5 minutes repeats of Jack Daniels once and puked my brains out.

It was days before I could run again :-)

It's a really tough workout. You need to kind of ease into it, starting with relatively few short
repeats (say 3 repeats of 3 minutes duration ) and long rests (also 3 minutes), then gradually make
the repeats longer and the rests shorter, then increase the number of repeats. It's also much harder
to maintain a high speed with the longer repeats.

Good luck,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

Thanks, "Donovan Rebbechi"

That is lots of good advice.

Quoted message said:

Actually, I find this unsurprising. Hills especially make a big

difference.

Quoted message said:

Also, on a track, you really run 5k. In a road race, the *shortest

possible

Quoted message said:

path* is 5k, so you actually run slightly more than that.

Good point.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Is it possible to use my heart rate during the race to maintain a steady

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

correct pace to improve my race times ?

Not really. I've monitored my heart rate during a 5k race. Up to 90% in 2 minutes, 95% after the
first mile, and indistinguishable from 100% at the

2

Quoted message said:

mile mark. This was a well-paced race with negative splits. The problem is that there are a number
of variables that influence your heart rate, some

days

Quoted message said:

you might be able to get your heart rate up to 205, sometimes maybe only

200.

Yes, I ramp up fast to 150 and then slowly climb thru the 150's and 160's and peak at 170. Much over
170 and I'm afraid death will ensue. I'm 42 years old and not yet sure of my MaxHR.

I can run for a long time in the 160's no problem.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm trying to do a 20 min 5k also and I'm close on the track or tread

but

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

can't break 22 in a real race.

Unless it's a very fast course, you will probably lose at least a minute,

IMO.

I think you are right...that's what is happening to me.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Any suggestions for pacing on race day ?

(a) try to break 22 before you try to break 21.

(b) negative splits. Aim to do the first mile slightly slower than goal

pace.

Quoted message said:

Not so far out that you're out of the game, but maybe 10s slower than goal

pace.

Quoted message said:

Chances are you will in fact do it at exactly goal pace despite your best efforts to start
carefully. You can afford to blow 10 seconds or so on the

first

Quoted message said:

mile. If you pace yourself, you will be able to get them back in the last

400m.

Quoted message said:

If you are between goal pace and 10 seconds slower than goal pace after

the

Quoted message said:

first mile, you are in a good position.

I ran a PR of 19:20 ....but I was just a skinny kid then. I'm down to 20:30 on track and treadmill
now but it will take a disciplined program to get that last minute or two I need to do it in a race.

Thanks for the advice.

Matilda

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Matilda

Zuckerman said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Jack Daniels recommends 3-5 minutes for these repeats,

I did 3-5 minutes repeats of Jack Daniels once and puked my brains out.

It was days before I could run again :-)

It's a really tough workout. You need to kind of ease into it, starting

with

Quoted message said:

relatively few short repeats (say 3 repeats of 3 minutes duration ) and

long

Quoted message said:

rests (also 3 minutes), then gradually make the repeats longer and the

rests

Quoted message said:

shorter, then increase the number of repeats. It's also much harder to

maintain

Quoted message said:

a high speed with the longer repeats.

Good luck,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

I was just filling up the shot glass every three to five minutes and throwin' 'em down the hatch.
Jack Daniels is so smooth you don't even notice until you are toast.

Donovan Rebbechi said:

It's a really tough workout. You need to kind of ease into it, starting with relatively few short
repeats (say 3 repeats of 3 minutes duration ) and long rests (also 3 minutes), then gradually make
the repeats longer and the rests shorter, then increase the number of repeats. It's also much
harder to maintain a high speed with the longer repeats.

Finally! He gives some advice he's truly qualified to give.