Help please with TA BB

"tony R" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Hello,

having swapped the bottom bracket and chainset from my
tourer to my

commuter

Quoted message said:

I'm now trying to put the new bits on the tourer. I'm
having problems with the new bottom bracket. It's a TA
Axix Light. I can't seem to fully screw

in

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the cups without the spindle becoming over stiff to
turn. Indeed the only adjustment with totally smooth and
easy feel to the spindle is with one or other of the
cups sticking out up to 5mm. from the shell. I'm sure
this can't be right.It doesn't have a fixed cup but
rather two adjustable ones with lockrings and cartridge
bearings. Does it matter which side goes in first? The
cups will go in perfectly with the spindle and bearings
removed so I don't think it's a case of dirty/damaged
threads (yet!). It's my

first

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encounter with this type of BB so I'm at a bit of a loss.
Any advice would be much appreciated.

thanks, tony R.

It's hard to be sure without seeing it, Tony. However, it
certainly sounds like a "width" problem, if you can adjust
the unit perfectly, albeit with 5mm of cup sticking out. Is
the axle designed to work with Italian threaded cups (i.e.
70mm shell, rather than 68)? Can't remember if TA axles are
so marked, but it's worth checking, or comparing against
another unit. It could even be designed for a 73mm (ATB)
shell, but I didn't think TA made them in this width. I
could very well be wrong, though, and this would precisely
account for your 5mm. Alternatively, is your bb shell
narrow? This you can measure - it should be 68mm across, if
it's English or ISO.

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"Simon Daw" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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"tony R" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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.......... I can't seem to fully screw

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in

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the cups without the spindle becoming over stiff to
turn. Indeed the

only

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adjustment with totally smooth and easy feel to the
spindle is with one

or

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other of the cups sticking out up to 5mm. from the
shell...........

It's hard to be sure without seeing it, Tony. However, it
certainly sounds like a "width" problem, if you can adjust
the unit perfectly, albeit with 5mm of cup sticking out.
Is the axle designed to work with Italian

threaded

Quoted message said:

cups (i.e. 70mm shell, rather than 68)? Can't remember if
TA axles are so marked, but it's worth checking, or
comparing against another unit. It

could

Quoted message said:

even be designed for a 73mm (ATB) shell, but I didn't
think TA made them

in

Quoted message said:

this width. I could very well be wrong, though, and this
would precisely account for your 5mm. Alternatively, is
your bb shell narrow? This you can measure - it should be
68mm across, if it's English or ISO.

Good evening Simon. My bottom bracket shell is plain
ordinary 68mm (just checked). The TA bb can be fitted to
both 68mm and 73mm shells according to the rather sketchy
fitting advice included with the unit. However in order to
fit the wider shell two spacers must be added and these
are not supplied with the unit. So width shouldn't be an
issue....in theory. I'm going to have another crack at it
tomorrow night so any other ideas are most welcome,
Thanks, tony R.

"tony R" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

Good evening Simon. My bottom bracket shell is plain
ordinary 68mm (just checked). The TA bb

can

Quoted message said:

be fitted to both 68mm and 73mm shells according to the
rather sketchy fitting advice included with the unit.
However in order to fit the wider shell two spacers must
be added and these are not supplied with the unit.

So

Quoted message said:

width shouldn't be an issue....in theory. I'm going to
have another crack at it tomorrow night so any other ideas

are

Quoted message said:

most welcome, Thanks, tony R.

Ah. Difficult!

I only ever fitted a handful of these, and can't
remember the spacers at all - I probably wouldn't, if
they're not supplied as standard. I'm pretty sure I
didn't fit one to an ATB.

To have the effect required, a spacer would need to move the
cups further apart, which would mean it would have to fit
inside the cup, between cup and bearing. I suppose there's
no reason this wouldn't work, but it's unusual. (Then again,
it's French...)

If this *is* the setup (and I stand to be advised!!), and
without wishing to be patronising, are you sure the spacers
aren't in there?!

I've checked, and they do make Italian versions. The
thread's different, so it would mean that two units have
been mixed up. Better not refer to country of origin again
;-).... 3mm extra is not unusual; they need some extra to
give you the chain line adjustment (which is the reason for
the two adjustable cups).

Failing that, is the alignment such that 2.5mm on each side
gives an acceptable chainline? You may not have any further
alternative!

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"Simon Daw" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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To have the effect required, a spacer would need to move
the cups further apart, which would mean it would have to
fit inside the cup, between cup

and

Quoted message said:

bearing.

'Course, spacers could also fit to the axle, and shift the
bearings further apart. It was late, last night - at least,
that's my excuse! Anyway, it's another possibility to check,
although from the sound of things you'd be aware of
something like this.

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tony R said:

having swapped the bottom bracket and chainset from my
tourer to my commuter I'm now trying to put the new bits
on the tourer. I'm having problems with the new bottom
bracket. It's a TA Axix Light. I can't seem to fully screw
in the cups without the spindle becoming over stiff to
turn. Indeed the only adjustment with totally smooth and
easy feel to the spindle is with one or other of the cups
sticking out up to 5mm. from the shell. I'm sure this
can't be right.

I'm not familiar with _adjustable_ cartridge BBs but it is
common for the bearings of various sorts to feel tighter and
rougher once the BB is fitted and adjusted. This is normal
and desirable with the traditional cup & cone types*, and
common with simple two-piece cartridge types when there is
some binding (particularly when shell isn't faced properly).
But if extremely tight, then there could indeed be some kind
of mismatch or serious problem.

* draco.acs.uci.edu8f.8.htmlOpen ↗ "...the
(adjustable) left cup should be advanced until an increase
in rotational drag can be felt but where the spindle can
still be turned using the tip of the thumb and forefinger.
Without preload that causes this drag, the spindle will be
riding on a single ball as each ball passes under the
load..." "...In a correctly adjusted bearing, the spindle
should not spin freely were it not greased." "...Although
the BB bearing can operate without preload, its life is
substantially extended with a light preload"

~PB

"Pete Biggs" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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I'm not familiar with _adjustable_ cartridge BBs but it is
common for the bearings of various sorts to feel tighter
and rougher once the BB is fitted and adjusted. This is
normal and desirable with the traditional cup & cone
types*, and common with simple two-piece cartridge types
when there is some binding (particularly when shell isn't
faced properly). But if extremely tight, then there could
indeed be some kind of mismatch or serious problem.

* draco.acs.uci.edu8f.8.htmlOpen ↗ "...the
(adjustable) left cup should be advanced until an
increase in rotational drag can be felt but where the
spindle can still be turned using the tip of the thumb
and forefinger. Without preload that causes this drag,
the spindle will be riding on a single ball as each ball
passes under the load..." "...In a correctly adjusted
bearing, the spindle should not spin freely were it not
greased." "...Although the BB bearing can operate
without preload, its life is substantially extended with
a light preload"

This is interesting, thanks Pete. I'd assumed a feel similar
to the Shimano cartridge unit I removed would be correct
(this was very smooth and "free"😉. It seems a little binding
might be OK. Having had the bloody thing in and out several
times last night - and in every combination of left/right in
first, left/right tightened fully/hardly tightened and most
stations in between - I have no intention of even looking at
it 'till this evening. I'll report back tonight in the light
of your reference.

cheers, tony R.

"Simon Daw" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

"Simon Daw" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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To have the effect required, a spacer would need to move
the cups

further

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

apart, which would mean it would have to fit inside the
cup, between cup

and

Quoted message said:

bearing.

'Course, spacers could also fit to the axle, and shift the
bearings

further

Quoted message said:

apart. It was late, last night - at least, that's my
excuse! Anyway, it's another possibility to check,
although from the sound of things you'd be aware of
something like this.

From the looks of the diagram the spacers go between cup and
bearing, as per your late-night guess. Anyhow there's no
sign of them in my unit so the problem lies elsewhere. Don't
worry about seeming patronising by the way. I need the most
obvious things pointing out to me often enough. And
sometimes it's all too easy to overlook the simple things.
Thanks for the help,

tony R.

"tony R" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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I'll

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report back tonight in the light of your reference.

So, this evening I started from scratch. Took everything out
and measured everything (in light of what Simon mentioned).
The space between the inner faces of the two lockrings (set
at their outermost limits) is just over 68mm. so that's
definitely not the problem. However I did find that the
right side cartridge has to be very carefully put on the
spindle. There's one orientation where it doesn't glide
effortlessly into place but sticks, about 2-3mm. shy of
where it should be. I couldn't find anything obvious that
might cause this.

I also found I was able to reproduce the slightly
rough/tight feeling with a surprisingly little amount of
hand pressure on the cups. This made me more confident about
it being the normal state of affairs - as per Pete's
reference.

I then refitted the unit being careful to make sure the
right side cartridge slotted home fully. The result is that
there is now only about 1mm of one cup sticking out with a
little tightness of the spindle apparent. Hopefully this
will be OK. As the rest of the bike is also in little pieces
it will be about a week before I get to test it properly.
The plan is to run it for a couple of hundred miles and see
how it goes. Maybe I'll reinstall it at that stage if
necessary.

It's certainly in a better state than at this time last
night so thanks for the help Simon and Pete.

tony R.

Sounds to me as though you're there, Tony! Well done.

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In message <[email hidden]>

Simon Daw said:

"tony R" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Good evening Simon. My bottom bracket shell is plain
ordinary 68mm (just checked). The TA bb

can

Quoted message said:

be fitted to both 68mm and 73mm shells according to the
rather sketchy fitting advice included with the unit.
However in order to fit the wider shell two spacers
must be added and these are not supplied with the unit.

So

Quoted message said:

width shouldn't be an issue....in theory. I'm going to
have another crack at it tomorrow night so any other
ideas

are

Quoted message said:

most welcome, Thanks, tony R.

Ah. Difficult!

I only ever fitted a handful of these, and can't remember
the spacers at all - I probably wouldn't, if they're not
supplied as standard. I'm pretty sure I didn't fit one to
an ATB.

I have a TA BB (the one with two bearings on the chain side
and I initially had problems fitting it until I realied that
the downtube was protruding into the BB shell and the BB
cups were fouling on this protusion.

Excellent BB noticably more rigid than previous unit.

Quoted message said:

To have the effect required, a spacer would need to move
the cups further apart, which would mean it would have to
fit inside the cup, between cup and bearing. I suppose
there's no reason this wouldn't work, but it's unusual.
(Then again, it's French...)

If this *is* the setup (and I stand to be advised!!), and
without wishing to be patronising, are you sure the
spacers aren't in there?!

I've checked, and they do make Italian versions. The
thread's different, so it would mean that two units have
been mixed up. Better not refer to country of origin
again ;-).... 3mm extra is not unusual; they need some
extra to give you the chain line adjustment (which is the
reason for the two adjustable cups).

Failing that, is the alignment such that 2.5mm on each
side gives an acceptable chainline? You may not have any
further alternative!

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--
Gwyn