Help please: Colorado signage

http://home.swbell.net/mpion/sharesigns.html

http://home.swbell.net/mpion/sharesigns.html

hughw said:

Hi all,

If anyone in Colorado can help me out I'd appreciate it. While cycling
in the mountains around Golden and Boulder areas last fall I noticed
highway signs of two types. I can't remeber the exact wording but they
were like this:

a) "Watch for cyclists"

b) "Cyclists ride single file"

I thought these signs were really effective and helped motorists
register that cyclists were supposed to be on the road; especially iirc
(a) was so much stronger than touchy feely "Share the road"

I don't see how "Watch for Cyclists" is any better than the simple W11-1
sign, which is the bicycle icon. Adding the W16-1 "Share the Road"
placard makes the W11-1 detrimentally ambiguous.

And why would you think that "Cyclists ride single file" is a good sign
for cyclists? That is just a way to make cycling less fun.

Wayne

Wayne Pein said:

And why would you think that "Cyclists ride single file" is a good

sign

Quoted message said:

for cyclists? That is just a way to make cycling less fun.

I _strongly_ agree. Riding single file may be sometimes advisable, but
there are bound to be plenty of times when side by side riding is
perfectly safe and, as Wayne says, more fun.

What's important is to have a sign instructing cyclists to obey some
law. This gives motorists a little psychological comfort, that all the
responsibility is not on the motorist. I am positive a secondary effect
is to tell the motorist, "We, the state, expect cyclists to be on this
road; that's why we've put this sign up for them to see." So the
motorist will have a little respect as well. When I was riding in CO I
really felt thos signs were half the reason for the civility of
motorists toward cyclists.

In CO they do have to ride single file on that road. Here in Texas
cyclists may ride two abreast as long as they don't imped the normal
traffic flow. So I guess the sign wouldn't say "Ride Single File" but
would state the law somehow, just to give the motorist that assurance.

I have had a response from aJefferson County, CO roads engineer. Here
are the two signs in question:

Share the Road : http://www.hughw.net/photos/Share%20the%20Road.jpg
Bicyclists Keep Right:
http://www.hughw.net/photos/Bicyclists%20Keep%20Right.jpg

Turns out I misremembered one of the messages: it *was* a "Share the
Road" sign. I do think that sign in that picture sends a non-wimpy
message.

hughw said:

What's important is to have a sign instructing cyclists to obey some
law. This gives motorists a little psychological comfort, that all the
responsibility is not on the motorist. I am positive a secondary effect
is to tell the motorist, "We, the state, expect cyclists to be on this
road; that's why we've put this sign up for them to see." So the
motorist will have a little respect as well. When I was riding in CO I
really felt thos signs were half the reason for the civility of
motorists toward cyclists.

In CO they do have to ride single file on that road. Here in Texas
cyclists may ride two abreast as long as they don't imped the normal
traffic flow. So I guess the sign wouldn't say "Ride Single File" but
would state the law somehow, just to give the motorist that assurance.

I have had a response from aJefferson County, CO roads engineer. Here
are the two signs in question:

Share the Road : http://www.hughw.net/photos/Share%20the%20Road.jpg
Bicyclists Keep Right:
http://www.hughw.net/photos/Bicyclists%20Keep%20Right.jpg

Turns out I misremembered one of the messages: it *was* a "Share the
Road" sign. I do think that sign in that picture sends a non-wimpy
message.

It depends mostly on drivers, here in Ontario Canada the law states, and
often you can find sinage that states "Slower Traffic Keep Right".
However on major multi-lane highways, you often find scared drivers who
either drive in the centre or left lanes, because they find it more
comfortable to not have to deal with on and off ramps. This creates a
problem for faster drivers, who can not, then pass on the left. Now,
this has nothing to do with cyclists, who are required to drive on the
right side of the lane, and usually do.

The problem with "Bicycles keep right", is that your assuming that the
bicycle is the slowest thing on the road. If a cyclist going 45km/h
approaches a car going 30km/h and he/she passes that car, they should
pass on the LEFT. This way the car driver, who isn't expecting a
vehicle to pass on the right side, will not decided to turn right, into
the bicycle at the last second, not expecting it to be there.

W

hughw said:

In CO they do have to ride single file on that road. Here in Texas
cyclists may ride two abreast as long as they don't imped the normal
traffic flow. So I guess the sign wouldn't say "Ride Single File" but
would state the law somehow, just to give the motorist that assurance.

Not for long, perhaps not even now. The new CO "bicycle bill", will
allow 2-a-breast in certain situations, but my understanding is that the
biggest benefit of the new bill is to provide better legal protection
for the cyclist in case of a accident with a car.

--
Craig Brossman, Durango Colorado
remove "mydebt" to reply

"Anyone who isn't confused really doesn't understand the situation."
Edward R. Murrow

Currently the Colorado law is:

http://bicyclecolo.org/site/page.cfm?PageID=27

"Ride Single File except when no motor vehicle traffic is approaching
within 300 feet from behind and sight distance to the front and rear is
at least 300 feet. "

To likely be changed by new legislation currently in the legislature.

Quoted message said:

Wayne Pein said:

And why would you think that "Cyclists ride single file" is a good

sign

Quoted message said:

for cyclists? That is just a way to make cycling less fun.

I _strongly_ agree. Riding single file may be somet imes advisable,

but

Quoted message said:

there are bound to be plenty of times when side by side riding is
perfectly safe and, as Wayne says, more fun.

Unfortunately, the placement of this particular sign in Four
Mile Canyon was not part of the global mostorized interes t s'
conspiracy against fun cycling but a natural reaction to parades of
"club cyclists" who display complete disregard for the fact that there
might actually be other users of the road. Trying to get home after a
hard day's work? T' Hell with you! W e'r e recreating! This rude
behavior engenders a lot of bitterness and occasional signage.

Robert

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Riding single file may be somet imes advisable, but
there are bound to be plenty of times when side by side riding is
perfectly safe and, as Wayne says, more fun.

Unfortunately, the placement of this particular sign in Four
Mile Canyon was not part of the global mostorized interes t s'
conspiracy against fun cycling but a natural reaction to parades of
"club cyclists" who display complete disregard for the fact that

there

Quoted message said:

might actually be other users of the road. Trying to get home after a
hard day's work? T' Hell with you! W e'r e recreating! This rude
behavior engenders a lot of bitterness and occasional signage.

That's life for you. Motorists sometimes exhibit rude behavior against
lone cyclists - because the motorists can get away with it. Because of
that, cyclists sometimes exhibit rude behavior against motorists, when
they can get away with it.

The same phenomenon works in thousands of other areas of life. It's
something the human race needs to get beyond.

But try to tell them that, and they'll crucify you.

- Frank Krygowski

Lates Colo info:

http://bicyclecolo.org/site/intro.cfm

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Unfortunately, the placement of this particular sign in Four
Mile Canyon was not part of the global mostorized interes t s'
conspiracy against fun cycling but a natural reaction to parades of
"club cyclists" who display complet e disregard for the fact that

there

Quoted message said:

might actually be other users of the road. Trying to get home after

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

hard day's work? T' Hell with you! W e'r e recreating! This rude
behavior engenders a lot of bitterness and occasional signage.

That's life for you. Motorists sometimes exhibit rude behavior

against

Quoted message said:

lone cyclists - because the motorists can get away with it. Because

of

Quoted message said:

that, cyclists sometimes exhibit rude behavior against motorists,

when

Quoted message said:

they can get away with it.

The same phenomenon works in thousands of other areas of life. It's
something the human race needs to get beyond.

But try to tell them that, and they'll crucify you.

Yeah. I don't know about "Because of that," if you want to
really chicken-or-the-egg this acrimony you'd have to take into
account the fact that cyclists had been acting rude in traffic
for several decades before traffic contained motorists.
I dont think there is any cycle of persecution/recrimination
at work on this particular road, just some assh@!#&
being assh@!#&. No need to sugarcoat it.

But yeah.

The road in question is probably my favorite road to ride
of all time. Or at least you know, top three. I have ridden the
modest climb to the fork at Wallstreet about 100 times over the
years. The right fork leads to a pretty serious hill,
between about 10-14% solid for three miles (and turning to dirt).
I've done that a FEW times. Riding two abreast in 4-mile Canyon
takes great care--not advisable to force passing vehicles completely
into other lane in this canyon or any other canyon around there,
in general the canyons are too curvy to allow a lot of full lane
passing, the passers can't get back over in time. Consequently,
safe drivers may end up stuck behind chatting cyclists for long
periods, and unsafe drivers will try to pass when there isn't
enough room.
Consider not only the car traffic and motorcycles descending at
speed through the many blind corners, but the many bicycles going
just as fast or faster, and hugging or even crossing the center line
in the curves. These conditions have led to many ugly wrecks in
the canyons, which led to the carving of centerline rumblestrips
in some canyons, and also the signage. I forget which canyon
I saw the sign: "Motorcycles stay in lane" or something like that.
So really it's best to do a sort of quasi-two-abreast if you want to
chat with a riding partner so the rider on the left stays
within conversational distance but can more easily drop back to
single file for passing traffic. This road remains one of the most
cycling friendly roads in the area even as the traffic increases,
and there is no need for any conflict when using a little common sense
and cooperation.

Robertt