Help needed with shaping bagels

<circe @nospam.internet.look.ca> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
: Made bagels for the first time today and they came out of the
oven
: looking more like doughnut-store honey crullers than bagels.
:
: I had a lot of problems getting the dough to stick to itself
when
: kneading them, and joining the ends when making a long rope of
dough.
: In fact one came out of the oven looking more like a croissant
than a
: bagel!
:
: What did I do wrong? How can I avoid this in future?
:
: And one more question - next time I make them, I'd like to
double the
: recipe and freeze half. This recipe called for one envelope of
yeast
: and three cups of flour. Is it necessary to use two envelopes
of yeast
: to six cups of flour or can I get away with just one envelope?
:
: Circe
=============

Making "ropes" is part of the problem. You may find it easier to shape pieces into balls, then
flatten and then poke a hole in the middle. That's how I do mine and they're usually pretty normal
looking bagels.

I would stick to the 1:3 ratio. If you want to double it - then double it (2:6) and just freeze
them. Bagels freeze very nicely.
--
Cyndi <Remove a "b" to reply

Which recipe did you use? Care to post it? Thanks.

circe said:

Made bagels for the first time today and they came out of the oven looking more like doughnut-
store honey crullers than bagels.

I had a lot of problems getting the dough to stick to itself when kneading them, and joining the
ends when making a long rope of dough. In fact one came out of the oven looking more like a
croissant than a bagel!

What did I do wrong? How can I avoid this in future?

And one more question - next time I make them, I'd like to double the recipe and freeze half. This
recipe called for one envelope of yeast and three cups of flour. Is it necessary to use two
envelopes of yeast to six cups of flour or can I get away with just one envelope?

Circe

I used the recipe at: tastingmenu.combagels.htmOpen ↗ but used ordinary
water and brown sugar instead of malt syrup. I don't care for bagels - just a good excuse for stale
bread - so these were for my husband who is not a bagel purist. I was upset at all the trans fats in
store-bought bagels and having the time, decided to experiment with making my own. If I can ever get
the forming down pat, I'll use the proper ingredients.

When I couldn't get the ends of the ropes to stick together - that's what made the one croissant-
shaped bagel, I did poke a hole in the centre instead but the dough was too dry to stick to itself
and they still turned out lumpy. In fact one bagel I made with the poke the hole in the middle
method still had ridges around the top outside edge from when I'd cut it off the dough ball. Looked
as if I'd rolled a long cylinder about 4" in diameter then just sliced off each bagel individually.

Must say though that they were delicious - million times better than store-bought ones and weren't
as much work to make as I'd thought. I'd like to make them again if I could only improve their
appearance.

Circe

"Phil(NM)" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Which recipe did you use? Care to post it? Thanks.

circe said:

Made bagels for the first time today and they came out of the oven looking more like doughnut-
store honey crullers than bagels.

I had a lot of problems getting the dough to stick to itself when kneading them, and joining the
ends when making a long rope of dough. In fact one came out of the oven looking more like a
croissant than a bagel!

What did I do wrong? How can I avoid this in future?

And one more question - next time I make them, I'd like to double the recipe and freeze half.
This recipe called for one envelope of yeast and three cups of flour. Is it necessary to use two
envelopes of yeast to six cups of flour or can I get away with just one envelope?

Circe

I think you need lots of yeast because the bagels still have to rise AFTER you boil them. Also, I am
*NOT a great baker BUT when I make bagels, I roll the dough into a ball in my hands (like when you
shape buns) and poke ny finger through it to make the middle hole. Lynn from Fargo *(Baking requires
measuring . . .)

il Mon, 16 Feb 2004 13:05:52 -0500, circe @nospam.internet.look.ca ha
scritto:

Quoted message said:

I used the recipe at: tastingmenu.combagels.htmOpen ↗ but used ordinary
water and brown sugar instead of malt syrup. I don't care for bagels - just a good excuse for
stale bread - so these were for my husband who is not a bagel purist. I was upset at all the trans
fats in store-bought bagels and having the time, decided to experiment with making my own. If I
can ever get the forming down pat, I'll use the proper ingredients.

When I couldn't get the ends of the ropes to stick together - that's what made the one croissant-
shaped bagel, I did poke a hole in the centre instead but the dough was too dry to stick to itself
and they still turned out lumpy. In fact one bagel I made with the poke the hole in the middle
method still had ridges around the top outside edge from when I'd cut it off the dough ball.
Looked as if I'd rolled a long cylinder about 4" in diameter then just sliced off each bagel
individually.

Must say though that they were delicious - million times better than store-bought ones and weren't
as much work to make as I'd thought. I'd like to make them again if I could only improve their
appearance.

Circe

I've tried to make bagels and the recipe talks about making a hole with a floured finger in the
balls of dough. Then they rise nicely and look ok. It's the boiling water that turns mine to
mishapen things. How does one avoid that?

--
Cheers, Loki [ Brevity is the soul of wit. W.Shakespeare ]

il Mon, 16 Feb 2004 13:05:52 -0500, circe @nospam.internet.look.ca ha scritto: [snip]

Quoted message said:

When I couldn't get the ends of the ropes to stick together - that's what made the one croissant-
shaped bagel, I did poke a hole in the centre instead but the dough was too dry to stick to itself
and they still turned out lumpy. In fact one bagel I made with the poke the hole in the middle
method still had ridges around the top outside edge from when I'd cut it off the dough ball.
Looked as if I'd rolled a long cylinder about 4" in diameter then just sliced off each bagel
individually.

[snip]

My recipe says to roll them into balls, then poke a hole in them. They're not meant to be slices of
dough. Then rest and rise, then boil, then bake. Then eat :-))
--
Cheers, Loki [ Brevity is the soul of wit. W.Shakespeare ]

il 16 Feb 2004 11:46:44 -0800, [email hidden] (Lynn Gifford) ha
scritto:

Quoted message said:

I think you need lots of yeast because the bagels still have to rise AFTER you boil them. Also, I
am *NOT a great baker BUT when I make bagels, I roll the dough into a ball in my hands (like when
you shape buns) and poke ny finger through it to make the middle hole. Lynn from Fargo *(Baking
requires measuring . . .)

This is in my Better Homes and Garden's Homemade bread cookbook
c.1973.

4 1/4 to 4 1/2 cups all-purpose flour 2 packages active dry yeast (any one know what those weigh?) 1
1/2 cups warm water (110°)- °F I guess 3 tablespoons sugar 1 tablespoon salt

In large mixer bowl combine 11/2 cups flour and the yeast.

Combine water sugar and salt. Add to dry mixture in mixer bowl.

Beat at low speed 1/2 minute. (...I wish - I use even slower hand and spoon)

Beat 3 mins. at high speed (.. ya gotta be kidding!)

By hand stir in the rest of the flour to make a moderately stiff dough. (that I can do )

Turn out (yaddayadda) Knead till smooth and elastic (8-10 mins)

Cover, let rest 15 mins. (Is this for the dough or the baker?)

Cut into 12 portions, *shape* into smooth balls. i(my hilite)i Punch hole in middle, enlarge hole by
pulling it. Cover, let rise 20 mins (optional - broil (grill) a bit for smooth glossy surface on an
ungreased tray)

In simmering sugared water (1 gal :1TBLspnp) boil bagels 7 mins a few at a time. Turn once.

Drain. Place on greased baking sheet . Bake at 375° for 30 -35 mins. Broiled (grilled) bagels,
bake about 25.

Nowhere does it meantion rising after boiling. I would've thought the yeast died on the boiling.

--
Cheers, Loki [ Brevity is the soul of wit. W.Shakespeare ]

On one of Julia Childs show, she had a baker there who nmade breads and bagels... when they poked
the center hole, they really stretched it .. because it contracts when boiling/baking, the initial
hole was the size of the finished bagel .... then they boiled it, and it puffed up some. They then
placed them on parchment on a cookie sheet, let them rest awhile and finally baked them. And they
did double on being baked.... The secret is not boiling them, but simmering them, I guess.

Loki said:

il 16 Feb 2004 11:46:44 -0800, [email hidden] (Lynn Gifford) ha scritto:

Quoted message said:

I think you need lots of yeast because the bagels still have to rise AFTER you boil them. Also,
I am *NOT a great baker BUT when I make bagels, I roll the dough into a ball in my hands (like
when you shape buns) and poke ny finger through it to make the middle hole. Lynn from Fargo
*(Baking requires measuring . . .)

This is in my Better Homes and Garden's Homemade bread cookbook
c.1973.

4 1/4 to 4 1/2 cups all-purpose flour 2 packages active dry yeast (any one know what those weigh?)
1 1/2 cups warm water (110°)- °F I guess 3 tablespoons sugar 1 tablespoon salt

In large mixer bowl combine 11/2 cups flour and the yeast.

Combine water sugar and salt. Add to dry mixture in mixer bowl.

Beat at low speed 1/2 minute. (...I wish - I use even slower hand and spoon)

Beat 3 mins. at high speed (.. ya gotta be kidding!)

By hand stir in the rest of the flour to make a moderately stiff dough. (that I can do )

Turn out (yaddayadda) Knead till smooth and elastic (8-10 mins)

Cover, let rest 15 mins. (Is this for the dough or the baker?)

Cut into 12 portions, *shape* into smooth balls. i(my hilite)i Punch hole in middle, enlarge hole
by pulling it. Cover, let rise 20 mins (optional - broil (grill) a bit for smooth glossy surface
on an ungreased tray)

In simmering sugared water (1 gal :1TBLspnp) boil bagels 7 mins a few at a time. Turn once.

Drain. Place on greased baking sheet . Bake at 375° for 30 -35 mins. Broiled (grilled) bagels,
bake about 25.

Nowhere does it meantion rising after boiling. I would've thought the yeast died on the boiling.

--
Cheers, Loki [ Brevity is the soul of wit. W.Shakespeare ]

il Mon, 16 Feb 2004 21:32:59 -0700, "Phil(NM)" ha scritto:

Quoted message said:

On one of Julia Childs show, she had a baker there who nmade breads and bagels... when they poked
the center hole, they really stretched it .. because it contracts when boiling/baking, the initial
hole was the size of the finished bagel .... then they boiled it, and it puffed up some. They then
placed them on parchment on a cookie sheet, let them rest awhile and finally baked them. And they
did double on being baked.... The secret is not boiling them, but simmering them, I guess.

eare ]

Heh, mine just go wrinkly when boiled or simmered I'd thought. Soon as they hit that water. I'll
have to try again and observe closely. Maybe 7 mins is too long.

--
Cheers, Loki [ Brevity is the soul of wit. W.Shakespeare ]

Loki said:

il Mon, 16 Feb 2004 21:32:59 -0700, "Phil(NM)" ha scritto:

Quoted message said:

On one of Julia Childs show, she had a baker there who nmade breads and bagels... when they poked
the center hole, they really stretched it .. because it contracts when boiling/baking, the
initial hole was the size of the finished bagel .... then they boiled it, and it puffed up some.
They then placed them on parchment on a cookie sheet, let them rest awhile and finally baked
them. And they did double on being baked.... The secret is not boiling them, but simmering them,
I guess.

eare ]

Heh, mine just go wrinkly when boiled or simmered I'd thought. Soon as they hit that water. I'll
have to try again and observe closely. Maybe 7 mins is too long.

You are correct, that is too long. About 45 seconds a side works best for me and do not use boiling
water. Drop it to the lowest simmer you can get before you begin. I also like to put diastatic malt
into the water.

Boron

il Tue, 17 Feb 2004 15:35:02 -0500, Boron Elgar ha scritto:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Heh, mine just go wrinkly when boiled or simmered I'd thought. Soon as they hit that water. I'll
have to try again and observe closely. Maybe 7 mins is too long.

You are correct, that is too long. About 45 seconds a side works best for me and do not use
boiling water. Drop it to the lowest simmer you can get before you begin. I also like to put
diastatic malt into the water.

Boron

You like to what? diastatic salt, what on earth is this one? I swear they invent new products just
to make life difficult.
--
Cheers, Loki [ Brevity is the soul of wit. W.Shakespeare ]

il Tue, 17 Feb 2004 15:35:02 -0500, Boron Elgar ha scritto:

Quoted message said:

You are correct, that is too long. About 45 seconds a side works best for me and do not use
boiling water. Drop it to the lowest simmer you can get before you begin. I also like to put
diastatic malt into the water.

Boron

oops, malt. What is it anyway still. ;-)
--
Cheers, Loki [ Brevity is the soul of wit. W.Shakespeare ]

Loki said:

il Tue, 17 Feb 2004 15:35:02 -0500, Boron Elgar ha scritto:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Heh, mine just go wrinkly when boiled or simmered I'd thought. Soon as they hit that water. I'll
have to try again and observe closely. Maybe 7 mins is too long.

You are correct, that is too long. About 45 seconds a side works best for me and do not use
boiling water. Drop it to the lowest simmer you can get before you begin. I also like to put
diastatic malt into the water.

Boron

You like to what? diastatic salt, what on earth is this one? I swear they invent new products just
to make life difficult.

Well this ought to confuse you even more, then...I meant NON-diastatic malt. It gives a shinier &
browner crust.

My mind was in its usual sourdough niche...diastatic malt is added to break down starch in dough so
the yeasts can feed on the sugar.

Used 2 different ways. ND is pretty much a sweetener.

boron

il Tue, 17 Feb 2004 21:14:01 -0500, Boron Elgar ha scritto:

Quoted message said:

Loki said:

il Tue, 17 Feb 2004 15:35:02 -0500, Boron Elgar ha scritto:

Quoted message said:

>Heh, mine just go wrinkly when boiled or simmered I'd thought. Soon as they hit that water.
>I'll have to try again and observe closely. Maybe 7 mins is too long.

You are correct, that is too long. About 45 seconds a side works best for me and do not use
boiling water. Drop it to the lowest simmer you can get before you begin. I also like to put
diastatic malt into the water.

Boron

You like to what? diastatic salt, what on earth is this one? I swear they invent new products
just to make life difficult.

Well this ought to confuse you even more, then...I meant NON-diastatic malt. It gives a shinier &
browner crust.

My mind was in its usual sourdough niche...diastatic malt is added to break down starch in dough
so the yeasts can feed on the sugar.

Used 2 different ways. ND is pretty much a sweetener.

boron

So sugar should work ok too? I'll try that 45 secs for simmering too (if I can get the darn stove to
simmer) I'm not addicted to achieving a brown crust, fairly laissez faire - if it tastes good that's
what counts :-))

BTW. My sister informs me that italian sour dough is not as sour as american sourdough. (Iknow i
know - use rec.food.sourdough :-))

--
Cheers, Loki [ Brevity is the soul of wit. W.Shakespeare ]

Loki said:

il Tue, 17 Feb 2004 21:14:01 -0500, Boron Elgar ha scritto:

Quoted message said:

Loki said:

il Tue, 17 Feb 2004 15:35:02 -0500, Boron Elgar ha scritto:

> >Heh, mine just go wrinkly when boiled or simmered I'd thought. Soon as they hit that water.
> >I'll have to try again and observe closely. Maybe 7 mins is too long.
>
>
> You are correct, that is too long. About 45 seconds a side works best for me and do not use
> boiling water. Drop it to the lowest simmer you can get before you begin. I also like to put
> diastatic malt into the water.
>
> Boron

You like to what? diastatic salt, what on earth is this one? I swear they invent new products
just to make life difficult.

Well this ought to confuse you even more, then...I meant NON-diastatic malt. It gives a shinier &
browner crust.

My mind was in its usual sourdough niche...diastatic malt is added to break down starch in dough
so the yeasts can feed on the sugar.

Used 2 different ways. ND is pretty much a sweetener.

boron

So sugar should work ok too? I'll try that 45 secs for simmering too (if I can get the darn stove
to simmer) I'm not addicted to achieving a brown crust, fairly laissez faire - if it tastes good
that's what counts :-))

The NDM give a bit of flavor, too, and I have never seen sugar used as a substitute. Have fun
experimenting.

Quoted message said:

BTW. My sister informs me that italian sour dough is not as sour as american sourdough. (Iknow i
know - use rec.food.sourdough :-))

I have had a lot of Italian breads made with pre-ferment, poolish. biga, etc, but none that I really
think of as regular sourdough. Do check RFS, though, as that is where the experts reside. They
publish a faq each week. You can google for it.

boron

if there's a Bruggers Bagels near you, go early some morning and watch as they boil/simmer theirs.
The vat is usually behind a special window just so you can watch.. I think they boil for 2 or 3
minutes...

Loki said:

il Tue, 17 Feb 2004 15:35:02 -0500, Boron Elgar ha scritto:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Heh, mine just go wrinkly when boiled or simmered I'd thought. Soon as they hit that water.
I'll have to try again and observe closely. Maybe 7 mins is too long.

You are correct, that is too long. About 45 seconds a side works best for me and do not use
boiling water. Drop it to the lowest simmer you can get before you begin. I also like to put
diastatic malt into the water.

Boron

You like to what? diastatic salt, what on earth is this one? I swear they invent new products just
to make life difficult.
--
Cheers, Loki [ Brevity is the soul of wit. W.Shakespeare ]

Lynn Gifford said:

"Phil(NM)" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Which recipe did you use? Care to post it? Thanks.

circe said:

Made bagels for the first time today and they came out of the oven looking more like doughnut-
store honey crullers than bagels.

I had a lot of problems getting the dough to stick to itself when kneading them, and joining the
ends when making a long rope of dough. In fact one came out of the oven looking more like a
croissant than a bagel!

What did I do wrong? How can I avoid this in future?

And one more question - next time I make them, I'd like to double the recipe and freeze half.
This recipe called for one envelope of yeast and three cups of flour. Is it necessary to use two
envelopes of yeast to six cups of flour or can I get away with just one envelope?

Circe

I think you need lots of yeast because the bagels still have to rise AFTER you boil them. Also, I
am *NOT a great baker BUT when I make bagels, I roll the dough into a ball in my hands (like when
you shape buns) and poke ny finger through it to make the middle hole. Lynn from Fargo *(Baking
requires measuring . . .)

Not sure what you consider "lots" of yeast. In my case, I use one tsp rapid for the sponge and 1/2
tsp for the dough. Seems plenty to me.
--
Alan

"If you reject the food, ignore the customs, fear the religion, and avoid the people, you might bet-
ter stay home."
-- James Michener