Help me meet my goal

With those numbers, I think you could win the race right now.

haribodie said:

The hill climb I plan on doing is 4 miles of flat and then 8 miles of uphill at 4.5% average. I will just stay on wheels for the flat part so I want to concentrate on the uphill portion.

Do you have a route profile for the climb? Are there grade changes? Can you practice on it?

RapDaddyo said:

Do you have a route profile for the climb? Are there grade changes? Can you practice on it?

The route profile can be found here californiaroadclub.orghc climb profile.htmlOpen ↗.

There are some grade changes but it is hard to judge from the profile. I can practice on it but only starting September 2nd as I am currently in a different country.

Thanks.

haribodie said:

The route profile can be found here californiaroadclub.orghc climb profile.htmlOpen ↗.

There are some grade changes but it is hard to judge from the profile. I can practice on it but only starting September 2nd as I am currently in a different country.

Thanks.

Nice looking course. At least you get to get warmed up before you go vertical. That first 4.5 miles presents an interesting decision as to pacing strategy. And, it looks worse than it is -- ~5% avg grade. These profiles are so deceiving because of the different scales. What kind of gears are you thinking about? Do you have a PM (oops, my mistake -- "shiny new SL"😉? What's your 1HR MP (the 170 doesn't sound like your max -- oops again, you mean 170HR, right?)?

RapDaddyo said:

Nice looking course. At least you get to get warmed up before you go vertical. That first 4.5 miles presents an interesting decision as to pacing strategy. And, it looks worse than it is -- ~5% avg grade. These profiles are so deceiving because of the different scales. What kind of gears are you thinking about? Do you have a PM (oops, my mistake -- "shiny new SL"😉? What's your 1HR MP (the 170 doesn't sound like your max -- oops again, you mean 170HR, right?)?

It appears the original poster can maintain 400 W for 20-mins, with a mass of 69 kg (according to his 1st post). Thus, at that power to mass ratio it's only going to be a pro or similar who could likely beat him.

Ric

[quote="haribodie"][QUOTE=What kind of gears are you thinking about? Do you have a PM (oops, my mistake -- "shiny new SL")? What's your 1HR MP (the 170 doesn't sound like your max -- oops again, you mean 170HR, right?)?[/QUOTE]
Gears- I'll have to go test the climb. Right now I am thinking 53-39 up front and 11-21 in the back. Although maybe a 51-42 and 11-23 would be better because it looks like I'll be switching from big to little several times and that would smooth the transition.

I HR MP- I don't know. I live near the mt. ventoux that sounds like a good place to go find out if I need to. Sounds pretty brutal though.

Yes I meant 170 HR, I know I can maintain at least 170 hr for an hour but I dont know what the corresponding power is.

haribodie said:

Gears- I'll have to go test the climb. Right now I am thinking 53-39 up front and 11-21 in the back. Although maybe a 51-42 and 11-23 would be better because it looks like I'll be switching from big to little several times and that would smooth the transition.

I HR MP- I don't know. I live near the mt. ventoux that sounds like a good place to go find out if I need to. Sounds pretty brutal though.

Yes I meant 170 HR, I know I can maintain at least 170 hr for an hour but I dont know what the corresponding power is.

Well, I would definitely want 1 cog steps for the power/cadence range I'm going to be spending most of the time in. If I read your original post correctly, I don't see a max power test at any duration. Even the 411w 6-min ride was not an MP ride. I know that Ric bases his training zones on a test to exhaustion, but I've personally never tried to correlate that with MP over a duration. Ric might be able to help you estimate your 1HR MP based on your power in a step-up test to exhaustion. I think it would be useful to know what your maximum sustainable power is over at least 20 minutes.

ric_stern/RST said:

It appears the original poster can maintain 400 W for 20-mins, with a mass of 69 kg (according to his 1st post). Thus, at that power to mass ratio it's only going to be a pro or similar who could likely beat him.

Ric

There will be (US) pros at the race, likely attracted by the 1000 dollar prize money for breaking the record and I will be racing in the Pro/1/2 category. What kind of workouts do I need to do get up this thing as fast as possible? Or perhaps a better question is where should I start? With some self testing or some intervals. I have unlimited time.

haribodie said:

There will be (US) pros at the race, likely attracted by the 1000 dollar prize money for breaking the record and I will be racing in the Pro/1/2 category. What kind of workouts do I need to do get up this thing as fast as possible? Or perhaps a better question is where should I start? With some self testing or some intervals. I have unlimited time.

400w is good power. What has your training schedule been like since your illness. I know you said you were sick for five months, but what kind of weekly mileage and intervals have you been doing since you got back on your bike and have they been power-based or HR based?

RapDaddyo said:

400w is good power. What has your training schedule been like since your illness. I know you said you were sick for five months, but what kind of weekly mileage and intervals have you been doing since you got back on your bike and have they been power-based or HR based?

Since my illness I have been cautiously doing almost entirely unorganized aerobic work. Longest ride was 5 hours. WHile I was sick I was riding four times a week for two hourse maximum. Now Im Just doing things on feeling. I live in a quite hilly area and have done plenty of long climbs but I just go up them at my rhythm except for the occasional group ride. However I feel like I am ready to start doing some intensity and Id like to take advantage of my new toy but dont really know how. It seems like I need to do some kind of mP test to start. 20 minutes sounds pretty intense! But it since the race will be a half hour of climbing I should get used to it. Does everyone think a 20 minute MP test is the best place to start? Other suggestions?

haribodie said:

Since my illness I have been cautiously doing almost entirely unorganized aerobic work. Longest ride was 5 hours. WHile I was sick I was riding four times a week for two hourse maximum. Now Im Just doing things on feeling. I live in a quite hilly area and have done plenty of long climbs but I just go up them at my rhythm except for the occasional group ride. However I feel like I am ready to start doing some intensity and Id like to take advantage of my new toy but dont really know how. It seems like I need to do some kind of mP test to start. 20 minutes sounds pretty intense! But it since the race will be a half hour of climbing I should get used to it. Does everyone think a 20 minute MP test is the best place to start? Other suggestions?

I'd suggest some testing to start with (either self tested or under the eye of either a sports scientist or coach). Personally, i'd suggest both a TT type test as well as a MAP test.

As to how to improve, it's a question of looking at your limiters and seeing what needs to be improved. For e.g., what's the ratio of TTpower to MAP? Have you thought of coaching?

Ric

haribodie said:

Since my illness I have been cautiously doing almost entirely unorganized aerobic work. Longest ride was 5 hours. WHile I was sick I was riding four times a week for two hourse maximum. Now Im Just doing things on feeling. I live in a quite hilly area and have done plenty of long climbs but I just go up them at my rhythm except for the occasional group ride. However I feel like I am ready to start doing some intensity and Id like to take advantage of my new toy but dont really know how. It seems like I need to do some kind of mP test to start. 20 minutes sounds pretty intense! But it since the race will be a half hour of climbing I should get used to it. Does everyone think a 20 minute MP test is the best place to start? Other suggestions?

Well, I think you face two interesting (although maybe not unique) problems in designing a training program. First, I think there are fewer people qualified to advise you on how to increase power from a 400w starting point. I, for one, am not qualified. Second, you have the issue of your recent illness and the constraints that may place on both testing and high-intensity work, at least in the short term. I'm going to focus on the pacing strategy because that's an area of interest to me. And, I echo Ric's suggestion to consider getting a coach. I think training issues such as interval protocols get progressively more complex as you move up the power curve and you're pretty far up the curve.

RapDaddyo said:

Well, I think you face two interesting (although maybe not unique) problems in designing a training program. First, I think there are fewer people qualified to advise you on how to increase power from a 400w starting point. I, for one, am not qualified. Second, you have the issue of your recent illness and the constraints that may place on both testing and high-intensity work, at least in the short term. I'm going to focus on the pacing strategy because that's an area of interest to me. And, I echo Ric's suggestion to consider getting a coach. I think training issues such as interval protocols get progressively more complex as you move up the power curve and you're pretty far up the curve.

Definitely, he's quite high up the curve! Luckily(!?), we've worked with riders in the TdF, other Euro Pros, female pros (obviously less power), as well as masters, elite, and more modest racers (i.e., 1st to 5th cat).

Ric

ric_stern/RST said:

Definitely, he's quite high up the curve! Luckily(!?), we've worked with riders in the TdF, other Euro Pros, female pros (obviously less power), as well as masters, elite, and more modest racers (i.e., 1st to 5th cat).

Ric

Im not sure if I understand why training methods would be different for those with high power.

Ive been feeling good lately and decided to do a maximal effort of 5 minutes. I want to be more mentally prepared and rested before doing the 20 minute maximum effort. I was pretty happy with how I felt. I would put up the actual file image but am not sur how.

Heres the readout
Min Max Avg
Power 752 477
Heart Rate 115 182 168

It should be noted that right after I stopped the clock my hr went up to 184 and I was dissapointed with mistiming my finishing sprint as I had a little bit left and my HR was well short of my maximum. Although I think my maximum of 197 was an anomalie and my true max is more like 191 or 192.

My first thirty seconds was at 572 watts and my first two and half minutes was at 502 watts. I think when I saw that I got scared and throttled back a bit too much. I was back up at 500 watt average for the last thirty seconds ad 550 for the last 15. I think with better pacing I could do a bit better. In any case I was very happy and felt better than I have in since my stupid illness. And perhaps better than Ive ever felt.

haribodie said:

Im not sure if I understand why training methods would be different for those with high power.

i didn't suggest that - it was RD. However, the inference that RD is making (which i believe to be erroneous) is that anyone can with a bit of training make certain power outputs (i think RD suggested 300 W in a separate thread) and that higher powers can only be obtained with highly specific training (and anything less than 300 W, can be obtained via just messing about on the bike).

While i don't want to seem like i'm starting a pi$$ing match over that (and i may have misinterpreted RD's comments as i've not had a *good* chance to read the thread as i've been running a mini training camp) i don't think that everyone can reach 300 W, some smaller people will never do this (I can't recall if RD put a mass disclaimer in his comments) and some people will struggle to ever get that fit (we can't all be super athletes, and there's certainly some cyclists i coach who would be thrilled to get 300 W).

Apologies to RD if i've erroneously misinterpreted your previous comments.

Quoted post said:

Ive been feeling good lately and decided to do a maximal effort of 5 minutes. I want to be more mentally prepared and rested before doing the 20 minute maximum effort. I was pretty happy with how I felt. I would put up the actual file image but am not sur how.

Heres the readout
Min Max Avg
Power 752 477
Heart Rate 115 182 168

It should be noted that right after I stopped the clock my hr went up to 184 and I was dissapointed with mistiming my finishing sprint as I had a little bit left and my HR was well short of my maximum. Although I think my maximum of 197 was an anomalie and my true max is more like 191 or 192.

My first thirty seconds was at 572 watts and my first two and half minutes was at 502 watts. I think when I saw that I got scared and throttled back a bit too much. I was back up at 500 watt average for the last thirty seconds ad 550 for the last 15. I think with better pacing I could do a bit better. In any case I was very happy and felt better than I have in since my stupid illness. And perhaps better than Ive ever felt.

i'm not sure what power meter you currently have, but assuming it's correctly calibrated and if i've read your data correctly (not sure if it's all under the correct column) at 477 W (avg) and 69 kg, someone is likely to be knocking on your door with a pro contract very shortly. If you pace it better next time you try one of these efforts and score higher then you've got a top notch score. Personally, i'd like to see data from a MAP test as well as a sustained effort.

Ric

Just for fun, to put your power in perspective, the estimate over on cyclingnews.com is that Denis Menchov, who broke away on the Jaizkibel climb and held off the peloton, was putting out about 425 watts for the climb, I think the climb is about 5 miles/8 km, avg gradient 5.4% or so (with pitches a lot steeper). Sounds like you aren't that far off the ProTour power graph! You MUST let us know how your hillclimb goes!

haribodie said:

Im not sure if I understand why training methods would be different for those with high power.

I didn't suggest that the training methods would be different to increase your power from a 400w starting point. I suggested that fewer people are qualified to advise you on a training regimen, including interval protocols. It's not that there's something magic about 400w. My point is that (IMO) increasing power becomes increasingly difficult as you move up your personal power curve and requires increasingly well-conceived training schedules to make progress. Each of us has a maximum potential. Progress early on is dead easy -- basically, get on your bike and ride. Then, you need to throw in some intervals, but I think it doesn't take a rocket scientist to come up with an interval program to increase one's power quite a bit -- just do them. But, eventually it gets much more difficult to increase power and, I think, requires a more carefully defined regimen. I was suggesting that, for me personally, I think 300w is that point at which my presently (designed by Bozo) ad hoc training regimen will need to be dumped and I'll need to get serious to make further progress. Whether that means I will get a coach or get much better educated myself I don't know. But, Bozo will get fired. Maybe you're not anywhere near your potential at 400w, but I was suggesting that to increase your power from 400w might require someone with a bit of expertise. It's not about an absolute number (400, 300 or 200). It's about how far up your personal power curve you are and how easy or hard it's going to be to increase power from there.

ric_stern/RST said:

i'm not sure what power meter you currently have, but assuming it's correctly calibrated and if i've read your data correctly (not sure if it's all under the correct column) at 477 W (avg) and 69 kg, someone is likely to be knocking on your door with a pro contract very shortly. If you pace it better next time you try one of these efforts and score higher then you've got a top notch score. Personally, i'd like to see data from a MAP test as well as a sustained effort.

Ric

I have a power tap SL. I had a power tap PRO last year which broke and then got lost on its way to Wisconsin. Although I pretty much just looked at the numbers last year (it was a gift) and didnt use it any other way except to note that I defintely was improving.

It was zeroing out perfectly (it was at 0 when I wasnt pedaling) before and after the climb and before and after I checked the torque just to make sure and that was also at 0 when I was coasting. If there are any errors in the data I dont think there is anything I can do about it.

Ill double check with some detailed maps with altitude but the climb I did it on was roughly 6% ( very rough guess but it is definitely more than 5% because I know some climbs at 5% and for me this climb compares well with the portions of the ventoux which are marked at 6%) and I averaged 29 km/h with a body and bike weight of about 80kg (I was a bit heavy this morning at 70.2kg plus the water bottles the bike is 8.5 kg and the pouch with two innertubes and two cartridges, some food in the pockets, cell phone) Analytical cycling gives an average power of 484 watts given that data so it seems to check out.

As for Menchov at san sebastian, Dont underestimate the effect of 200 km in the legs. I saw that Floyd Landis didn a 483 watt 5 minute performance in the context of a 200km stage and during a climb that was longer than 5 minutes and he weighs less than me. That data was not an estimate either but actual PT data. Also one of my weaknesses, and it is especially pronounced at the moment, is the draining of lactic acid. I do it slowly and my v02 max test confirmed this (although I had a blood infection during the test) and I think that quick recovery is perhaps more important than high wattage, especially in amateur races which are rather chaotic.

Also ric I dont know what MAP is. But I did do some pretty thorough testing this year a sports phsyiologist (the team set it up) and they collected all sorts of data including v02 max data. I have a little booklet with all my results. So perhaps I have some of the data you were asking about. Although, again the test was done when Ihad a blood infection.

RapDaddyo said:

I didn't suggest that the training methods would be different to increase your power from a 400w starting point. I suggested that fewer people are qualified to advise you on a training regimen, including interval protocols. It's not that there's something magic about 400w. My point is that (IMO) increasing power becomes increasingly difficult as you move up your personal power curve and requires increasingly well-conceived training schedules to make progress. Each of us has a maximum potential. Progress early on is dead easy -- basically, get on your bike and ride. Then, you need to throw in some intervals, but I think it doesn't take a rocket scientist to come up with an interval program to increase one's power quite a bit -- just do them. But, eventually it gets much more difficult to increase power and, I think, requires a more carefully defined regimen. I was suggesting that, for me personally, I think 300w is that point at which my presently (designed by Bozo) ad hoc training regimen will need to be dumped and I'll need to get serious to make further progress. Whether that means I will get a coach or get much better educated myself I don't know. But, Bozo will get fired. Maybe you're not anywhere near your potential at 400w, but I was suggesting that to increase your power from 400w might require someone with a bit of expertise. It's not about an absolute number (400, 300 or 200). It's about how far up your personal power curve you are and how easy or hard it's going to be to increase power from there.

That makes perfect sense and I see now what you meant. I 100% agree with you. I can testify that a fun and easy improvement curve can quickly turn into a brick wall that only the most skilled coaches can breakthrough.