Help Identify old Bike Italian Road Frame

Quoted message said:

I bought an old chromo frame off of ebay a few monhs ago. Its decals
call it a "Frizzante", but I have found nothing on the web that
indicates it is an actual brand. I would like for some of group to help
ID the frame if they can. The serial number is Z85146 and is stamped
into the bottom bracket. The BB is italian threaded and the dropouts
are all Campy. There is no pnatographing to give a hint as to the
manufacture. Please see the following like for pics. Please ignore the
components, they are some I had on hand when I built the frame.Thanks
in advance.

http://www.landworkspa.com/steve/bike.htm

I do see the out of place cable on the bottom bracket. It is now
correctly threaded.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I bought an old chromo frame off of ebay a few monhs ago. Its decals
call it a "Frizzante", but I have found nothing on the web that
indicates it is an actual brand. I would like for some of group to help
ID the frame if they can. The serial number is Z85146 and is stamped
into the bottom bracket. The BB is italian threaded and the dropouts
are all Campy. There is no pnatographing to give a hint as to the
manufacture. Please see the following like for pics. Please ignore the
components, they are some I had on hand when I built the frame.Thanks
in advance.

http://www.landworkspa.com/steve/bike.htm

From the lug work and seat stay caps it looks like it was pretty well
constructed.

Frizzante means "lightly sparkling" as in a slightly bubbly wine. It may
be a nickname someone put on the frame.

Chas.

* * Chas said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I bought an old chromo frame off of ebay a few monhs ago. Its decals
call it a "Frizzante", but I have found nothing on the web that
indicates it is an actual brand. I would like for some of group to help
ID the frame if they can. The serial number is Z85146 and is stamped
into the bottom bracket. The BB is italian threaded and the dropouts
are all Campy. There is no pnatographing to give a hint as to the
manufacture. Please see the following like for pics. Please ignore the
components, they are some I had on hand when I built the frame.Thanks
in advance.

http://www.landworkspa.com/steve/bike.htm

From the lug work and seat stay caps it looks like it was pretty well
constructed.

indeed! obviously need some love though judging by the way some stoner
threaded the derailleur cable wrong...

Quoted message said:

Frizzante means "lightly sparkling" as in a slightly bubbly wine. It may
be a nickname someone put on the frame.

Chas.

My guess, a late 1970's or early 80's decent quality Italian bike.
Looks like a repaint and re-decal job to me.
Try here for some possible matches:
http://www.classicrendezvous.com/Italy/Italy.html
Also maybe join the classicrendezvous mail-list there are people who are
good at this type of guess work.
http://www.bikelist.org/mailman/listinfo/classicrendezvous

Marcus

"Marcus Coles" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

My guess, a late 1970's or early 80's decent quality Italian bike.
Looks like a repaint and re-decal job to me.
Try here for some possible matches:
http://www.classicrendezvous.com/Italy/Italy.html
Also maybe join the classicrendezvous mail-list there are people who are
good at this type of guess work.
http://www.bikelist.org/mailman/listinfo/classicrendezvous

Marcus

Sometimes, the lugs and seatstay caps are the only way to tell the maker.

If it's really well made it may have been built by a frame maker here in
the US.

Italian paint would never last that long! ;-)

Chas.

Four things say that this is a high-quality frameset :

(a) The reinforcing tangs on the rear brake bridge, found on high
quality frames.

(b) The barrel for brake mounting on the rear bridge, found on high
quality frames.

(c) The cinelli fork crown.

(d) Chainstay brazing treatment.

However, the lack of bottom-bracket cutouts mean this is _not_ an
absolutely top-flite frame. The very very best frames from the 1970's
and 1980's had a cutout on the bottom of the bottom bracket to lighten
up the frameset.

I'll be the frame and fork together weigh 6.5 - 7.0 pounds. The very
best frames of this era would weight about 6.0 pounds.

- Don Gillies
San diego, CA

Donald Gillies said:

Four things say that this is a high-quality frameset :

(a) The reinforcing tangs on the rear brake bridge, found on high
quality frames.

(b) The barrel for brake mounting on the rear bridge, found on high
quality frames.

(c) The cinelli fork crown.

(d) Chainstay brazing treatment.

However, the lack of bottom-bracket cutouts mean this is _not_ an
absolutely top-flite frame. The very very best frames from the 1970's
and 1980's had a cutout on the bottom of the bottom bracket to lighten
up the frameset.

I wonder how much weight those cutouts saved (?)

Quoted message said:

I'll be the frame and fork together weigh 6.5 - 7.0 pounds. The very
best frames of this era would weight about 6.0 pounds.

In what size?

Quoted message said:

- Don Gillies
San diego, CA

"Ozark Bicycle" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Donald Gillies said:

Four things say that this is a high-quality frameset :

(a) The reinforcing tangs on the rear brake bridge, found on high
quality frames.

(b) The barrel for brake mounting on the rear bridge, found on high
quality frames.

(c) The cinelli fork crown.

(d) Chainstay brazing treatment.

However, the lack of bottom-bracket cutouts mean this is _not_ an
absolutely top-flite frame. The very very best frames from the 1970's
and 1980's had a cutout on the bottom of the bottom bracket to lighten
up the frameset.

I wonder how much weight those cutouts saved (?)

Ask all of the mid '70s Guerciotti owners with the star shaped stress
riser BB shells! ;-)

Just about every one that I saw from that era ended up with a cracked BB
shell.

Chas.

* * Chas said:

"Ozark Bicycle" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Donald Gillies said:

Four things say that this is a high-quality frameset :

(a) The reinforcing tangs on the rear brake bridge, found on high
quality frames.

(b) The barrel for brake mounting on the rear bridge, found on high
quality frames.

(c) The cinelli fork crown.

(d) Chainstay brazing treatment.

However, the lack of bottom-bracket cutouts mean this is _not_ an
absolutely top-flite frame. The very very best frames from the 1970's
and 1980's had a cutout on the bottom of the bottom bracket to lighten
up the frameset.

I wonder how much weight those cutouts saved (?)

Ask all of the mid '70s Guerciotti owners with the star shaped stress
riser BB shells! ;-)

Just about every one that I saw from that era ended up with a cracked BB
shell.

Making large cutouts in a BB shell, whether to "save (not much) weight"
or to be fancy, seems an extremely dumb idea.

Quoted message said:

Chas.

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

Ozark Bicycle said:

* * Chas said:

"Ozark Bicycle" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
>
> Donald Gillies wrote:
> > Four things say that this is a high-quality frameset :
> >
> > (a) The reinforcing tangs on the rear brake bridge, found on high
> > quality frames.
> >
> > (b) The barrel for brake mounting on the rear bridge, found on high
> > quality frames.
> >
> > (c) The cinelli fork crown.
> >
> > (d) Chainstay brazing treatment.
> >
> > However, the lack of bottom-bracket cutouts mean this is _not_ an
> > absolutely top-flite frame. The very very best frames from the 1970's
> > and 1980's had a cutout on the bottom of the bottom bracket to lighten
> > up the frameset.
>
> I wonder how much weight those cutouts saved (?)

Ask all of the mid '70s Guerciotti owners with the star shaped stress
riser BB shells! ;-)

Just about every one that I saw from that era ended up with a cracked BB
shell.

Making large cutouts in a BB shell, whether to "save (not much) weight"
or to be fancy, seems an extremely dumb idea.

Do the cutouts cause problems?

In a lightly stressed area such as a BB shell??? Of course not.

Ozark Bicycle said:

* * Chas said:

"Ozark Bicycle" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Donald Gillies wrote:
> Four things say that this is a high-quality frameset :
>
> (a) The reinforcing tangs on the rear brake bridge, found on high
> quality frames.
>
> (b) The barrel for brake mounting on the rear bridge, found on high
> quality frames.
>
> (c) The cinelli fork crown.
>
> (d) Chainstay brazing treatment.
>
> However, the lack of bottom-bracket cutouts mean this is _not_ an
> absolutely top-flite frame. The very very best frames from the 1970's
> and 1980's had a cutout on the bottom of the bottom bracket to lighten
> up the frameset.

I wonder how much weight those cutouts saved (?)

Ask all of the mid '70s Guerciotti owners with the star shaped stress
riser BB shells! ;-)

Just about every one that I saw from that era ended up with a cracked BB
shell.

Making large cutouts in a BB shell, whether to "save (not much) weight"
or to be fancy, seems an extremely dumb idea.

Do the cutouts cause problems?
--
JT
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"John Forrest Tomlinson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ozark Bicycle said:

* * Chas said:

"Ozark Bicycle" <[email hidden]> wrote in

message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

news:[email hidden]...
>
> Donald Gillies wrote:
> > Four things say that this is a high-quality frameset :
> >
> > (a) The reinforcing tangs on the rear brake bridge, found on high
> > quality frames.
> >
> > (b) The barrel for brake mounting on the rear bridge, found on

high

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > quality frames.
> >
> > (c) The cinelli fork crown.
> >
> > (d) Chainstay brazing treatment.
> >
> > However, the lack of bottom-bracket cutouts mean this is _not_ an
> > absolutely top-flite frame. The very very best frames from the

1970's

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > and 1980's had a cutout on the bottom of the bottom bracket to

lighten

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > up the frameset.
>
> I wonder how much weight those cutouts saved (?)

Ask all of the mid '70s Guerciotti owners with the star shaped stress
riser BB shells! ;-)

Just about every one that I saw from that era ended up with a cracked

BB

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

shell.

Making large cutouts in a BB shell, whether to "save (not much) weight"
or to be fancy, seems an extremely dumb idea.

Do the cutouts cause problems?
--
JT

Depends on the shape, size and location. The BB is one of the most highly
stressed area on a bike.

Besides the holes make great entry points for grit and water in non sealed
bearing crank spindles.

One less beer or burrito can make a lot more difference than a few grams
saved by holes in a BB.

Chas.

* * Chas said:

Quoted message said:

Do the cutouts cause problems?

Besides the holes make great entry points for grit and water in non sealed
bearing crank spindles.

Totally wrong.
There is always a barrel inside th housing to prevent that.
At the same time, the water that creeps in along the handlebar stem and
the seat tube, after collecting at the bottom, is free to exit.
A cutout is a must to have a rust free BB.

Sergio
Pisa

Ozark Bicycle said:

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

Ozark Bicycle said:

* * Chas wrote:
> "Ozark Bicycle" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:[email hidden]...
> >
> > Donald Gillies wrote:
> > > Four things say that this is a high-quality frameset :
> > >
> > > (a) The reinforcing tangs on the rear brake bridge, found on high
> > > quality frames.
> > >
> > > (b) The barrel for brake mounting on the rear bridge, found on high
> > > quality frames.
> > >
> > > (c) The cinelli fork crown.
> > >
> > > (d) Chainstay brazing treatment.
> > >
> > > However, the lack of bottom-bracket cutouts mean this is _not_ an
> > > absolutely top-flite frame. The very very best frames from the 1970's
> > > and 1980's had a cutout on the bottom of the bottom bracket to lighten
> > > up the frameset.
> >
> > I wonder how much weight those cutouts saved (?)
>
> Ask all of the mid '70s Guerciotti owners with the star shaped stress
> riser BB shells! ;-)
>
> Just about every one that I saw from that era ended up with a cracked BB
> shell.

Making large cutouts in a BB shell, whether to "save (not much) weight"
or to be fancy, seems an extremely dumb idea.

Do the cutouts cause problems?

In a lightly stressed area such as a BB shell??? Of course not.

I'm not certainl if you're being serious or sarcastic.

If you're being sarcastic, have you ever heard of it actually causing
problems like that? I'm not talking about speculation -- I'm talking
about evidence.

Well?

--
JT
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On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 00:15:39 -0800, "* * Chas"
<[email hidden]> wrote:

[About cut-out BB shells]

Quoted message said:

Depends on the shape, size and location.
The BB is one of the most highly stressed area on a bike.

Are you aware of cracks and such caused by this? Were they anything
but hyper-rare or nonexistent?

Quoted message said:

One less beer or burrito can make a lot more difference than a few grams
saved by holes in a BB.

What about doing both? Is that allowed?

--
JT
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sergio said:

* * Chas said:

Quoted message said:

Do the cutouts cause problems?

Besides the holes make great entry points for grit and water in non sealed
bearing crank spindles.

Totally wrong.
There is always a barrel inside th housing to prevent that.
At the same time, the water that creeps in along the handlebar stem and
the seat tube, after collecting at the bottom, is free to exit.
A cutout is a must to have a rust free BB.

A small drain hole, yes. A large cutout, probably not. And **Chas is
correct, a large cutout *can* let water in the frame, the plastic
sleeve not withstanding (and, if the sleeve isn't perfectly seated,
said water can get into the BB cups).

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 00:15:39 -0800, "* * Chas"
<[email hidden]> wrote:

[About cut-out BB shells]

Quoted message said:

Depends on the shape, size and location.
The BB is one of the most highly stressed area on a bike.

Are you aware of cracks and such caused by this? Were they anything
but hyper-rare or nonexistent?

Quoted message said:

One less beer or burrito can make a lot more difference than a few grams
saved by holes in a BB.

What about doing both? Is that allowed?

What about a nice NOS Campy SR titanium BB spindle? That'll save ya a
few grams, too. ;-)

Ozark Bicycle said:

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

On Fri, 22 Dec 2006 00:15:39 -0800, "* * Chas"
<[email hidden]> wrote:

[About cut-out BB shells]

Quoted message said:

Depends on the shape, size and location.
The BB is one of the most highly stressed area on a bike.

Are you aware of cracks and such caused by this? Were they anything
but hyper-rare or nonexistent?

Quoted message said:

One less beer or burrito can make a lot more difference than a few grams
saved by holes in a BB.

What about doing both? Is that allowed?

What about a nice NOS Campy SR titanium BB spindle? That'll save ya a
few grams, too. ;-)

I't interesting that you still haven't answered the question about
cutouts leading to breaks or cracks.

I should have guessed -- you're not one to use real evidence in
discussions much.
--
JT
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Visit http://www.jt10000.com
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"John Forrest Tomlinson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
<snip>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> Ask all of the mid '70s Guerciotti owners with the star shaped

stress

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> riser BB shells! ;-)
>>
>> Just about every one that I saw from that era ended up with a

cracked BB

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> shell.
>
>Making large cutouts in a BB shell, whether to "save (not much)

weight"

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>or to be fancy, seems an extremely dumb idea.

Do the cutouts cause problems?

In a lightly stressed area such as a BB shell??? Of course not.

I'm not certainl if you're being serious or sarcastic.

If you're being sarcastic, have you ever heard of it actually causing
problems like that? I'm not talking about speculation -- I'm talking
about evidence.

Well?

--
JT
****************************

In the mid '70s Guerciotti frames started coming into the US in goodly
numbers. They had a very large 5 point star cut out in the BB. I saw over
a dozen with cracked BB shells. We wouldn't sell them for that reason.

A lot of guys bought them from MO houses with 30/30 guarantees - 30 feet
or 30 seconds. They brought their bikes into our shop crying...

A lot of steel BB shells were made from seamed heavy wall tubing or thin
steel plate that was wrapped around a mandrel and seam welded. The tubing
holes were then deep drawn. I've seen a few of these BBs crack in half at
the weld.

For the past 20+ years, most better quality steel bikes have BB shells
which are made from seamless tubing or are cast and that eliminates the
seam problem

Chas.