Helmets... what's going on then?

AndyP said:

I see people are still having fun "discussing" helmets on here so would any
of the people in the know be kind enough to tell me if I ought to be getting
worried that someone's going to be trying to make me wear one any time soon?
A quick search tells me the BMA are now pro compulsion for instance. Is the
general feeling optimistic that freedom of choice will remain or is
compulsion seen as inevitable for adults and kids alike eventually?

I personally think it has shifted in the last year from the point where
helmets were a heated topic of debate but with little real likelihood of
anything changing to one where there is a real chance of compulsion
coming in unless we work to prevent it. I may be wrong but in current
circumstances I prefer the precautionary principle.

Tony

AndyP said:

I see people are still having fun "discussing" helmets on here so would any
of the people in the know be kind enough to tell me if I ought to be getting
worried that someone's going to be trying to make me wear one any time soon?
A quick search tells me the BMA are now pro compulsion for instance. Is the
general feeling optimistic that freedom of choice will remain or is
compulsion seen as inevitable for adults and kids alike eventually?

I personally think it has shifted in the last year from the point where
helmets were a heated topic of debate but with little real likelihood of
anything changing to one where there is a real chance of compulsion
coming in unless we work to prevent it. I may be wrong but in current
circumstances I prefer the precautionary principle.

Tony

"AndyP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I see people are still having fun "discussing" helmets on here so would any
of the people in the know be kind enough to tell me if I ought to be
getting
worried that someone's going to be trying to make me wear one any time
soon?
A quick search tells me the BMA are now pro compulsion for instance. Is
the
general feeling optimistic that freedom of choice will remain or is
compulsion seen as inevitable for adults and kids alike eventually?

Good point, and while we're on the subject, does anyone know what is
happening in the BMA? Has there been sufficient noise that they are
reviewing their last decision on helmets?

Quoted message said:

Rich said:

Good point, and while we're on the subject, does anyone know what is
happening in the BMA? Has there been sufficient noise that they are
reviewing their last decision on helmets?

I sent them a letter which got a reply from their Public Information
Officer in November, along with another copy of their "review". I
replied pointing out that since I'd objected to the contents of their
review then giving me another copy wasn't /too/ convincing and
demonstrated how easy it was to take apart using their own quoted
references, pointing out how this showed it was a shocking excuse for
science. I had a reply in late November saying my letter had been
forwarded to the Board of Science for further consideration, and I've
yet to hear anything back. Given they have had the good grace to reply
to my two letters (and a previous email) I would expect it's at least
sitting in a pile rather than was filed immediately in the bucket, but
how much they're actually thinking and/or preparing more whitewash I
have no idea...

I was finishing Richard Feynman's "Surely you're joking, Mr. Feynman"
last night, and the final chapter, warning against the dangers of "Cargo
Cult Science" is *scarily* applicable to this whole nonsense.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

AndyP said:

I see people are still having fun "discussing" helmets on here so would any
of the people in the know be kind enough to tell me if I ought to be getting
worried that someone's going to be trying to make me wear one any time soon?
A quick search tells me the BMA are now pro compulsion for instance. Is the
general feeling optimistic that freedom of choice will remain or is
compulsion seen as inevitable for adults and kids alike eventually?

Don't know, but I'd love to see a separate newsgroup for these
discussions, dedicated to helemts, safety, and legal issues.

There's a lot of practical and interesting stuff on this newsgroup
about bikes and cycling in the UK (routes, Audax, ride reports,
weather etc), but I find some of it gets drowned out when I have to
download 200 articles in the morning.

--
jc

Remove the -not from email

Jeremy Collins said:

There's a lot of practical and interesting stuff on this newsgroup
about bikes and cycling in the UK (routes, Audax, ride reports,
weather etc), but I find some of it gets drowned out when I have to
download 200 articles in the morning.

If you want to ignore this issue simply filter out the messages. The
helmet debate is not going away in the current climate.

--
Dave...

Jeremy Collins said:

There's a lot of practical and interesting stuff on this newsgroup
about bikes and cycling in the UK (routes, Audax, ride reports,
weather etc), but I find some of it gets drowned out when I have to
download 200 articles in the morning.

Then either filter them, or get a newsreader that only downloads the
headers; seeing as Helmet threads are usually conspicuously labelled as
such in the subject line, it is trivial to not download them.

R.

Richard said:

Jeremy Collins said:

There's a lot of practical and interesting stuff on this newsgroup
about bikes and cycling in the UK (routes, Audax, ride reports,
weather etc), but I find some of it gets drowned out when I have to
download 200 articles in the morning.

Then either filter them, or get a newsreader that only downloads the
headers; seeing as Helmet threads are usually conspicuously labelled as
such in the subject line, it is trivial to not download them.

Some people on this newsgroup, as a tongue-in-cheek joke, disguise the
word "helmet" in subject lines.

Perhaps we (myself included) shouldn't use terms such as "H*LM*T" or
"H word", since it makes filtering more difficult?

--
Amazon: "If you are interested in 'Asimov's I-Robot',
you may also be interested in 'Garfield - The Movie'.
... erm, how do they figure that one out?

Richard Bates said:

Some people on this newsgroup, as a tongue-in-cheek joke, disguise the
word "helmet" in subject lines.

Perhaps we (myself included) shouldn't use terms such as "H*LM*T" or
"H word", since it makes filtering more difficult?

Precisely - it seems a lot of thread titles are designed to
bypass a filter. I get the joke - "lets pretend helmet is
a taboo word" - but it would be nice if this died out.

--
jc

Remove the -not from email

Jeremy Collins said:

Precisely - it seems a lot of thread titles are designed to
bypass a filter. I get the joke - "lets pretend helmet is
a taboo word" - but it would be nice if this died out.

In that case, why didn't your filter work for this thread?

Peter Clinch wrote:
[snip]

Quoted message said:

I was finishing Richard Feynman's "Surely you're joking, Mr. Feynman"
last night, and the final chapter, warning against the dangers of "Cargo
Cult Science" is *scarily* applicable to this whole nonsense.

Yes. It's off topic, I know, but I thought the following made some good
points. There does seem to be wide-ranging and effective assault on
rational thinking in places all around the world.

http://www.newhumanist.org.uk/volume120issue1_more.php?id=1217_0_34_0_C

This is even more like "cargo-cult science"; the first article on the
page discusses the activities of the Director of Mediumship at the
University of Arizona a Professor Schwarz. The helmet nonsense is more
subtle, so if somebody can get away with this, what chance with the
helmet fight?

http://www.randi.org/jr/011405we.html

--
Joe * If I cannot be free I'll be cheap

dkahn400 said:

Jeremy Collins said:

There's a lot of practical and interesting stuff on this newsgroup
about bikes and cycling in the UK (routes, Audax, ride reports,
weather etc), but I find some of it gets drowned out when I have to
download 200 articles in the morning.

If you want to ignore this issue simply filter out the messages. The
helmet debate is not going away in the current climate.

Killing the thread you don't want can work, but thread drift makes this
unreliable.

--
Joe * If I cannot be free I'll be cheap

Simonb said:

Jeremy Collins said:

Precisely - it seems a lot of thread titles are designed to
bypass a filter. I get the joke - "lets pretend helmet is
a taboo word" - but it would be nice if this died out.

In that case, why didn't your filter work for this thread?

I did a bit of an extreme cleanup when I upgraded from the
Thunderbird betas to version 1, so haven't got any filters
in place at the moment. In general TB works pretty well at
this stuff though.

--
jc

Remove the -not from email

Peter Clinch said:

I was finishing Richard Feynman's "Surely you're joking, Mr. Feynman"
last night, and the final chapter, warning against the dangers of "Cargo
Cult Science" is *scarily* applicable to this whole nonsense.

I recently read "Bad Thoughts: A guide to clear thinking" by Jamie Whyte
(I strongly recommend it, btw), which is similarly applicable.

It was interesting to see that one of his examples concerned the use of
statistics by the BMA. Apparently in 2000 they called on the fashion
industry to stop focusing on abnormally thin celebrities. Fair enough,
but they went on to state that: "Anorexia nervosa affects about 2 per
cent of young women and kills a fifth of sufferers".

Whyte then goes on to show that, on this basis, we would expect the
death rate of young women from anorexia to be about 16 times the actual
death rate of young women from all causes...

--
Danny Colyer (the UK company has been laughed out of my reply address)
<URL:http://www.speedy5.freeserve.co.uk/danny/>
"He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine

"Tony Raven" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

AndyP said:

I see people are still having fun "discussing" helmets on here so would

any

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of the people in the know be kind enough to tell me if I ought to be

getting

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

worried that someone's going to be trying to make me wear one any time

soon?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

A quick search tells me the BMA are now pro compulsion for instance. Is

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

general feeling optimistic that freedom of choice will remain or is
compulsion seen as inevitable for adults and kids alike eventually?

I personally think it has shifted in the last year from the point where
helmets were a heated topic of debate but with little real likelihood of
anything changing to one where there is a real chance of compulsion
coming in unless we work to prevent it. I may be wrong but in current
circumstances I prefer the precautionary principle.

Tony

I am stunned that such opposition comes up. Have you seen what happens to
your head should you depart any vehicle at even slowish speeds? 20 - 25 mph
will cause some pretty (well, it's not pretty) extensive damage. Then
again, the fact that you're obviously so thick would probably help when you
bounce down the road.

Lance Armstrong said:

I am stunned that such opposition comes up. Have you seen what
happens to your head should you depart any vehicle at even slowish
speeds? 20 - 25 mph will cause some pretty (well, it's not pretty)
extensive damage. Then again, the fact that you're obviously so
thick would probably help when you bounce down the road.

Oh Bollocks. Here we go again.

Cycle helmets are NOT designed to help AT ALL in impacts at speeds as low as
20-25mph. You're obviously too thick to have read the small print disclaimer
that came with yours.

Rob

On 20/1/05 4:36 pm, in article [email hidden], "Lance

Armstrong' _I.ko said:

"Tony Raven" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

AndyP said:

I see people are still having fun "discussing" helmets on here so would

any

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of the people in the know be kind enough to tell me if I ought to be

getting

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

worried that someone's going to be trying to make me wear one any time

soon?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

A quick search tells me the BMA are now pro compulsion for instance. Is

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

general feeling optimistic that freedom of choice will remain or is
compulsion seen as inevitable for adults and kids alike eventually?

I personally think it has shifted in the last year from the point where
helmets were a heated topic of debate but with little real likelihood of
anything changing to one where there is a real chance of compulsion
coming in unless we work to prevent it. I may be wrong but in current
circumstances I prefer the precautionary principle.

Tony

I am stunned that such opposition comes up. Have you seen what happens to
your head should you depart any vehicle at even slowish speeds? 20 - 25 mph
will cause some pretty (well, it's not pretty) extensive damage. Then
again, the fact that you're obviously so thick would probably help when you
bounce down the road.

So why shoudl one suffer the discomfort of wearing a helemt designed for
less than half that speed? ANd injury severity is not linear to the speed..
it is worse than quadratic.

And why do you assume that a helmet can only do good when there are
documented cases of neck injury, and wel lunderstood mechanisms by which
more damaging forms of impact (ie rotational) can be exacerbated.

And then you have to jsutify not wearing one when walking, as that is
within the design range of the helmet (unless you are running or taller than
me.)

So you have to satisfy the following criteria to be remotely credible:

1. There is a peculiar and significant problem that needs to be addressed.

2. A helmet designed for low speed linear impacts should be worn to protect
against high speed rotational impacts.

Given the choice of neck injury/brain damage vs bumps and grazes, I know
which I'd take. If I am exagerating the non effectiveness of helmets outside
of anecdotes, then I'm sure you can furnish us with reliable whole
population data for head injury rate and helmet wearing..

...d

...d

Lance Armstrong said:

I am stunned that such opposition comes up. Have you seen what happens to
your head should you depart any vehicle at even slowish speeds? 20 - 25 mph
will cause some pretty (well, it's not pretty) extensive damage.

Have you seen what effect cycle helmets have had on serious injury rates
as more are being worn?

I have. The effect is zero. Look at the population level data of
serious injuries to cyclists as helmet wearing rates have changed and
there's no difference as the helmet wearing rate increases.

On the other hand, making helmets compulsory /has/ affected cyclist
numbers quite badly. Which is known to be bad for cycling accident
rates, and also for public health in general. So making helmets
compulsory has a /proven track record/ of negatively affecting national
health.

That's why such opposition comes up. We're opposed because it has a
proven track record of not only not working as promised, but by making
public health *worse* than before introduction.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 16:36:50 -0000 someone who may be "Lance
Armstrong" <[email hidden]_I.ko> wrote this:-

Quoted message said:

I am stunned that such opposition comes up. Have you seen what happens to
your head should you depart any vehicle at even slowish speeds? 20 - 25 mph
will cause some pretty (well, it's not pretty) extensive damage. Then
again, the fact that you're obviously so thick would probably help when you
bounce down the road.

So close to a recent posting as to probably a troll. I can't be
bothered to check my suspicions out.

--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.