rec.sport.unicycling · Public discussion

Helmets Attract Cars

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rec.sport.unicycling
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12 May 2007
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26 May 2007
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jmando
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  1. I just found this article about an experiment on how close cars will
    come to you helmeted versus without a helmet. This was conducted on a
    bike and may not pertain to us unicyclists, as people tend to give us a
    lot of room regardless, but still an interesting read:

    http://tinyurl.com/3b45v6

    I'll continue wearing my helmet when I go for a ride.

    --
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    "Watch yourself."
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  2. I'm not even bothering to make this a long post: It's [censored], that
    researcher should be made responsible for everyones suffering from
    brain damage after a crash.

    --
    DustinSchaap

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  3. DustinSchaap said:

    I'm not even bothering to make this a long post: It's [censored], that
    researcher should be made responsible for everyones suffering from
    brain damage after a crash.

    To quote the final paragraph of the article:
    'Walker, whose much-publicized report may inspire a new generation of
    bareheaded riders, won't make any specific recommendations to other
    cyclists ... "If people read the research and decide a helmet makes
    them safer, they should wear one; if they read the research and decide
    it doesn't, perhaps they don't need to," Walker says, adding the
    caveat, "But they do need to read the research!"'

    You'll see that he doesn't advise against wearing a helmet. And let's
    just repeat that caveat: "But they do need to read the research!".
    He's not referring simply to his own research, and those who want to
    read the research could do worse than to start at
    http://www.cyclehelmets.org/

    For those who have suggested that he should have measured the distance
    from the kerb and taken that into account, he did. It's just not
    mentioned in the Scientific American article.

    --
    Danny Colyer

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  4. http://www.madison.com/tct/news/index.php?ntid=133934

    I bet he'll continue to wear a helmet.

    It took alot of convincing and threats to get my 15 year old to wear a
    helmet on his MTB. But he has seen the light, and has been religiously
    wearing it for the past few months. Good thing, as he gets crazy air
    and big drops. Just the other day he commented that it probably saved
    his life, after he lost it on a ladder bridge and smacked his head on a
    tree while fallling down to the ground. And I witnessed him smacking
    the back of his helmeted head on the ground during a failed 180
    attempt.

    He has even convinced a couple of friends to start wearing theirs.

    Personally my helmet has saved me at least twice from serious head
    injuries. One time was cartwheelling over the bars and landing on rocks
    on my back and head. That was a hard smackdown. The second time was
    when I botched a stairset jump and broke my clavicle. My full-face
    saved my head - my shoulder collapsed and hit my neck, which is a
    strange feeling, but the helmet prevented my head and neck from
    injury.

    Anyway I will climb down from my soapbox. There are certainly enough
    examples of "why you should wear a helmet" on youtube (I can think of
    two really nasty big stairset falls. Ouch).

    But as for the Uni, I confess that wearing a helmet often feels like
    overkill. I don't do trials stuff, but I imagine a helmet would be
    quite good to have when playing on rocks and stairs.

    I am Uni'ing after work on some flat bikepath stuff - no tricks on my
    29" - and I don't know if I will follow my own advice and wear my
    helmet. It does seem silly when just puttering around, particularly
    once past the beginner stage.

    Sorry to ramble but this topic stirs up a lot of strong opinions.

    --
    CrazyChrisVT
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  5. Im just bumping this because there is a weird copy with most of the
    posts missing on the first page😕 and someone replied to it.

    --
    saskatchewanian

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    completion is an accomplishment, fulfillment. - BluntRM
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  6. I noticed that.. wierd. I'll repost. :p
    ---
    Dude. It's research. It was a question. An academic decided to research
    it. That's WHAT THEY DO. It is their reason for existing to experiment
    on anything and everything. And, it is a completely valid question, and
    a completely reasonable thing to study, and publishing the results is
    entirely expected and required. That is not some "malicious act". It
    isn't an "attack on your safety". It's a freaking study. It's his job
    to study things and publish the results.

    Yeah, people should wear helmets. No, helmets won't make you safe. They
    help reduce a certain subset of injury, a common and important subset
    but a subset nonetheless.
    However, a lot of people seem to invest magical powers into them; just
    witness the television ads urging people to wear bicycle helmets so
    that they won't get broken arms. They don't solve the root problems.
    They won't help you if you are hit by a car; they won't help you when
    you land on your hands, they won't help you in a lot of cases. The
    cases they help are really important, sure, but that doesn't mean you
    can say "I'm wearing a helmet, i'm safe now".

    --
    JusticeZero
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  7. jmando said:

    I just found this article about an experiment on how close cars will
    come to you helmeted versus without a helmet. This was conducted on a
    bike and may not pertain to us unicyclists, as people tend to give us a
    lot of room regardless, but still an interesting read:

    http://tinyurl.com/3b45v6

    I'll continue wearing my helmet when I go for a ride.

    I think whether the cars come close or not is primarily dependent on
    who's driving it.

    --
    iPod_therefore_iUni

    SHUT UP AND UNI!
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  8. CrazyChrisVT said:

    http://www.madison.com/tct/news/index.php?ntid=133934

    I bet he'll continue to wear a helmet.

    Just a little side rant. Him catapulting over his bike to land in the
    road, is just poor riding. He should have noted the truck earlier, and
    took the right precautions to not be in the situation. And even if that
    was impossible, there is no reason to fly off the bike at all, unless
    being overly confident that your helmet would save you.

    Helmets are NOT designed for this. It was partially a fluke that he
    didn't get more hurt, and partially just the physics of the situation.
    People can get run over in acts and whatnot because there isn't as much
    force on an inflatable tire as one would expect there to be.

    If he had not been wearing a helmet, it's very reasonable to come to
    the conclusion that he would have never gotten himself into that
    situation in the first place, and it's also completely possible that he
    would have suffered the same injury sans helmet. It is also necessary
    to realize that this injury had very little to do with biking. A runner
    or inattentive walker could have gotten themselves into the same stupid
    situation.

    There is absolutely no clear evidence that helmets help at all. People
    should actually do some research before responding. (I'm not talking
    about you, just using your quote of that article)

    As JZ pointed out, "The cases they help are really important, sure, but
    that doesn't mean you can say "I'm wearing a helmet, i'm safe now"."
    Yet that's what most people do. As I read on another forum, find a
    mtber that just bombed down a harry downhill. Not ask him to do the
    same run without his helmet on. He'll either refuse, or do it much more
    carefully. And helmets are just not as well designed as people seem to
    think that they are. Many are not much more than toy store junk. There
    is also evidence that helmet users are MORE likely to hit their heads,
    as they are now much bigger and heavier. There is also evidence that
    helmet wearers have much HIGHER

    And as another aside, why is it that in places where helmet use on
    motorcycles isn't mandatory, half the riders don't wear one, yet I
    can't seem to find a single person on this forum that agrees with me
    that helmets are stupid? 🙂

    --
    AscenXion

    *\ /*
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  9. Danny Colyer said:

    And let's just repeat that caveat: "But they do need to read the
    research!". He's not referring simply to his own research, and those
    who want to read the research could do worse than to start at
    http://www.cyclehelmets.org/

    The "facts" at http://www.cyclehelmets.org/ look suspiciously different
    from the "facts" at http://www.helmets.org/index.htm. I won't judge any
    of the sites yet. I haven't read the research.

    Read the research from as many independent sources as possible!

    --
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  10. AscenXion said:

    There is also evidence that helmet users are MORE likely to hit their
    heads, as they are now much bigger and heavier. There is also evidence
    that helmet wearers have much HIGHER

    evidence that helmet wearers have much HIGHER risk for rotational
    injuries, which are long term. There is also evidence that helmets
    reduce vision and awareness. All of these factors combined with people
    riding harder thinking that their helmet will save them (which is just
    not the case), FAR outweigh the INSIGNIFICANT benefits of wearing a
    helmet.

    ...

    sorry bout the need to double post, my edit time ran out.

    --
    AscenXion

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  11. Borges said:

    The "facts" at http://www.cyclehelmets.org/ look suspiciously different
    from the "facts" at http://www.helmets.org/index.htm. I won't judge any
    of the sites yet. I haven't read the research.

    Read the research from as many independent sources as possible!

    I'm TRYING to be as unbiased as possible. Which for me is probably
    harder than for the average person. 🙂 But taking a quick look at both
    of the sites, and the latter seems to fall into the former's definition
    of "Misleading Claims". They quote statistics of injury and death. But
    never say if the riders are wearing helmets or not. Then pick a number
    at random of how many of these riders could be saved wearing
    helmets...whose to say that they weren't in the first place, and whose
    to say that the helmet would have protected them? Helmets are NOT
    designed for impacts of the magnitude that cause most cycle deaths.

    The first site just seems to be much more well put together and better
    informed and researched. Where-as the second site wants to hype helmet
    use, and has "fudged" it's numbers to fit its premise.

    --
    AscenXion

    *\ /*
    */ \*

    *µニ Rider*
    *SingleTrak'n*
    *Order Of One [O³]*

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  12. AscenXion said:

    I'm TRYING to be as unbiased as possible. Which for me is probably
    harder than for the average person. 🙂

    Thumbs up to you for trying. I wasn't trying to paint anyone as biased.
    The extra link was just there to help make my point about being
    critical and reading from more than one source.

    --
    Borges
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  13. AscenXion said:

    I can't seem to find a single person on this forum that agrees with me
    that helmets are stupid? 🙂

    This isn't really relevant to the original topic, but...

    I used to be extremely sceptical of the merits of bicycle helmets. I
    rode many years and tens of thousands of miles, including racing, and
    never had a serious head injury despite several high-speed wipeouts. I
    was convinced that you just naturally stop your head hitting the ground
    (at least on a smooth road) - I'd skinned every part of my body EXCEPT
    my head.

    Then I got into mountain biking and race organisers were insisting on
    helmets, so I started wearing one for off-roading. I was still very
    anti-helmet on the road.

    Then when I moved to Dartmoor, a bit more than ten years ago, I started
    wearing my helmet for winter commuting when there's a high chance of
    ice, wet leaves and sticks on the road (and sheep for that matter). It
    just became a habit and before long I was wearing it all the time.

    In the last three years I've had two crashes (both on bikes on the
    road) where I've hit my helmeted head on the ground hard enough to
    cause a crack in the helmet. One time I had a slight headache and
    stiff neck for a couple of days, the other time I was unconscious for
    20 minutes but had no lasting effects. The argument that "I only hit
    my head because it was bigger because of the helmet" is clearly not
    true - if my head was travelling fast enough towards the ground to
    knock me out on impact, I don't believe it would have stopped in the
    next inch or two (helmet thickness) and that crack could well have been
    in my skull rather than the helmet. People will say that the helmet
    "failed" because it cracked, but the very fact that it cracked shows it
    absorbed enough energy to crack it, which then didn't have to be
    absorbed by my head. OK, it means that the accident was on the limit
    of protection offered by the helmet, but bicycle helmets are a
    compromise between protection and practicality (comfort, weight and
    ventilation).

    A bicycle helmet won't save you from all head injuries, and there are
    probably some cases where you'd genuinely be slightly better off
    without it, and most of the time it's just a useful place to mount
    lights, but I'm very glad I'd been in the habit of wearing mine when I
    had those two accidents.

    Having said that, I always wear the helmet for unicycling as well, but
    I've never yet had a fall where I've hit my head hard. But it could
    happen - in fact, on the spiky rocky trails I usually ride a road bike
    helmet probably isn't the best thing anyway, but I still reckon it's
    better than nothing. I agree with your comment about the downhillers
    though; a helmet is there to protect the brain, not as a substitute for
    it.

    Rob

    --
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  14. Responding to the comments about helmets giving a false sense of
    security; I've got to say that be it false or not, I like it. One of
    my biggest challenges in becoming a better unicyclist is overcoming a
    strong inborn dose of caution. When I'm all suited up, I'm willing to
    push it that much further, have more fun and I improve more quickly.
    For those of us who don't experience such bouts with self-preservation,
    then go on riding without a helmet. For me, I'm going to continue
    wearing one because a.) I feel more confident in it and b.) ...uh
    well... to put it simply: it protects my head, an essential part of my
    body. It may not do the job perfectly, but it protects a heck of a lot
    more than just my skull and hair do. And lastly, I don't buy the idea
    that cycling helmets restrict vision or make it bigger by a significant
    portion to cause more trouble than they protect against.

    --
    jmando

    "Watch yourself."
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  15. I like my brain.

    Clearly the jury is still out on the average improvements, or lack
    thereof, in accident rates for bicyclists with and without helmets. In
    fact, since the people dishing up the data are usually on one obvious
    side of the helmet debate or the other, it's hard to imagine they are
    being objective in their choices of how they present it so I remain
    skeptical.

    However in unicycling we don't have that problem. We have no scientific
    data at all, so there's a lot less to argue about. Mostly we just have
    anecdotal data, often from people we know and trust. This proves
    nothing in a statistical sense, but it shows that people we actually
    know have been protected.

    Also much of what the unicyclists on these forums do is pretty
    hardcore. Whereas riding around your neighborhood sidewalks poses
    minimal danger of brain injury, gapping high stack of palettes or
    riding down steep slopes of pointy rocks are obvious places where
    uncontrolled falls can happen and wearing a helmet shouldn't really be
    a question. BTW this applies to pretty much anything involving railings
    as well...

    Because my helmet also provides the protection from the sun my balding
    head requires, it's not a question of whether I'm going to wear one for
    road or mountain riding. I probably will continue *not* to wear one for
    Freestyle, or riding my 12" unicycle, or riding my giraffe.

    rob.northcott said:

    People will say that the helmet "failed" because it cracked, but the
    very fact that it cracked shows it absorbed enough energy to crack it,
    which then didn't have to be absorbed by my head.

    Exactly. Those people don't know what they're talking about. In fact,
    your helmet "succeeded" because you walked away. In keeping road
    helmets lightweight, they're not designed to survive multiple major
    impacts. They're designed to protect your brain.

    Quoted message said:

    OK, it means that the accident was on the limit of protection offered by
    the helmet...

    Not even. It just means that impact was somewhere between a light one,
    one that might not require replacement, and a much more severe one
    where you still survived. Your helmet could probably have taken a much
    bigger knock and still protected you.

    As Rob mentioned, if you're riding on pointy rocks or otherwise doing
    rough or high stuff (technical MUni, Trials, Street with big
    obstacles), a skate helmet will be better, and longer-lasting
    protection than a road helmet.

    --
    johnfoss

    John Foss
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  16. johnfoss said:

    Because my helmet also provides the protection from the sun my balding
    head requires, it's not a question of whether I'm going to wear one for
    road or mountain riding.

    My cycling cap provides far better sun protection for my baldy bonce
    than any helmet that's well enough ventilated to actually be useable.
    And it's so much more stylish:
    http://tinyurl.com/yq4fkq

    :-P

    --
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  17. Danny Colyer said:

    My cycling cap provides far better sun protection for my baldy bonce
    than any helmet that's well enough ventilated to actually be useable.

    Wow, what a rig! Very cool. Still, I prefer a helmet when mixing it up
    with cars. I don't have any kids of my own, but I think if I did they
    would wear one if I was. If not riding with cars, much less danger.

    --
    johnfoss

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  18. There is so much to be learned from the helmet debate - not about
    helmets, but about typical thought processes.

    There can be no doubt that in a hundred accidents involving head
    impacts to helmeted riders, and a hundred accidents involving head
    impacts to unhelmeted riders, the average injury to a helmeted ride
    will be less serious.

    A similar argument could be made about arm injuries to people wearing
    long or short sleeves. If the accident happens, protection will
    usually reduce the consequences, even if in a small number of special
    cases it exacerbates the consequences.

    There can be little doubt that wearing protection makes the average
    person less risk averse. Therefore, the helmeted (or gloved,
    wrist-guarded, knee-padded, elbow-padded, or back-protected) rider is
    more likely to have an accident, and need the protection. This applies
    to many, but not all riders.

    There is rather more doubt that third parties react differently to
    whether or not someone is wearing a helmet. Most third party accidents
    are caused by carelessness and lack of observation, lack of hazard
    awareness, and lack of hazard management.

    The absence of the awareness means that it is incredibly unlikely that
    someone will see the helmet, factor it into his hazard assessment and
    decrease his margin for error accordingly. The typical motorist is
    more worried about damage to his car than injury to the cyclist.

    Professionally, I once spoke to a lady who had hit and killed a
    cyclist. She had not seen the cyclist at any time before the impact.
    It was on a straight main road with no junctions or pavement (US =
    sidewalk)and she was overtaking the cyclist when she hit him. She had
    too main points to make to
    me:

    - That it must have been the cyclist's fault.
    - That she did not think she should lose her no claims discount.

    She had killed a young man, and was arguing about her no claims within
    48 hours. (A psychologist might call that displacement activity, but I
    found it nauseating.)

    The real argument about helmets is about compulsion, and all the
    arguments about the limited number of special circumstances in which
    they might increase the risk are really people arguing against
    compulsion.

    Just say it. It's a legitimate point of view - and one that I share.
    Compulsion is not justified, even though on average, helmets will do
    more good than harm.

    It's like arguing against fox hunting on the basis of rural economics.
    Nonsense - just say that you don't believe it should be banned because
    it is an issue about freedom; that is a legitimate opinion, although I
    personally don't share it.

    --
    Mikefule

    Never ride faster than your guardian angel can fly.
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  19. Borges said:

    The "facts" at http://www.cyclehelmets.org/ look suspiciously different
    from the "facts" at http://www.helmets.org/index.htm. I won't judge any
    of the sites yet. I haven't read the research.

    I understand that helmets.org is the Leftpondian equivalent of BHIT
    http://www.bhit.org/ , a UK organisation that exists solely to seek
    mandatory helmet legislation and has a history of making misleading
    claims (to the extent that the Advertising Standards Authority asked
    them to stop making one particular discredited claim).

    I'm less familiar with helmets.org than with BHIT, so won't suggest
    that they also tend to make misleading claims, but the following from
    the site suggests that they have an interest in promoting helmets:
    "We are the helmet advocacy program of the Washington Area Bicyclist
    Association".

    The next bit suggests that they're likely to be rather more honest and
    knowledgeable than BHIT, though:
    "As much as we believe in helmets we still consider them a secondary
    safety measure and urge that primary measures such as safer roads and
    education programs for riders and drivers not be neglected."

    cyclehelmets.org, OTOH, exists solely to present the available evidence
    and help cyclists to make an informed choice.

    Quoted message said:

    Read the research from as many independent sources as possible!

    Agreed.

    --
    Danny Colyer

    http://www.colyer.plus.com/danny/
    "He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine
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  20. Mikefule said:

    There can be no doubt that in a hundred accidents involving head impacts
    to helmeted riders, and a hundred accidents involving head impacts to
    unhelmeted riders, the average injury to a helmeted ride will be less
    serious.

    There can be no doubt that superficial injuries (cuts and grazes) will
    on average be less serious in the helmeted riders. Because helmets can
    do little, if anything, to prevent the more serious damage caused by
    movement of the brain within the skull (bruising to the brain caused by
    impact of the brain against the skull in linear deceleration, or
    shearing of neurons in rotational injuries), and there is evidence that
    helmets may in certain circumstances exacerbate this type of injury, as
    well as increasing the risk of spinal injuries, there most certainly
    /can/ be doubt that the average injury to a helmeted rider will be less
    serious.

    That's one reason why some of us don't accept the "helmets always good"
    mantra and want to see serious research devoted to the issue.

    --
    Danny Colyer

    http://www.colyer.plus.com/danny/
    "He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine
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