Helmet saves...

Leo Lichtman said:

"AustinMN" wrote: Do you honestly believe that a 50 cent piece of
Styrofoam that can be crushed with a finger would protect a skull (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^
I honestly believe that a properly shaped Styrofoam surround is capable of
protecting what is within it. That is why I drive home with eggs in a
Styrofoam container, and why most delicate products are packaged by the
manufacturers in Styrofoam. Are you aware that almost all car bumpers are
now made of such foam? It is the fact that it crushes in an orderly manner
that provides the protection.

That does not prove that helmets prevent head injuries, but I hate to see
the wrong arguments used.

Agreed. I was hit by a motorcycle two years ago and the indent in the helmet was better there then in my head. Last week I was hit by a car turning left right in front of me and I could not brake fast enough without hitting the car. The woman did not stop even though she knew she hit me. My other rider and a car chased her and stopped her. As I fell to the left my head was hit by her rear wheel and with the helmet on I feel I was saved a bit. I lost some meat and damage to the bike but I am alive. I am from the Gold Coast in Australia and we have to wear helmets. I have been riding for years and no matter what you cannot expect the unexpected so by wearing helmets it does help the unexpected. I do believe in helmets. Larry

larryaus <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Leo Lichtman said:

"AustinMN" wrote: Do you honestly believe that a 50 cent piece of
Styrofoam that can be crushed with a finger would protect a skull
(clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^
Agreed. I was hit by a motorcycle two years ago and the indent in

the

Quoted message said:

helmet was better there then in my head. Last week I was hit by a car
turning left right in front of me and I could not brake fast enough
without hitting the car. The woman did not stop even though she knew
she hit me. My other rider and a car chased her and stopped her. As I
fell to the left my head was hit by her rear wheel and with the helmet
on

What this newbie gets from all the accidents I am reading about is the
following.....Stay in the park so you don't get killed or get hat hair
from wearing a helmet. Not to be flip about all this, but all the
accident stories make me feel as if riding a bike in traffic is not
worth it. I am too old to die this young. I made it to age 50.....I'd
like to keep going.
http://hometown.aol.com/lbuset/

larryaus <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Leo Lichtman said:

"AustinMN" wrote: Do you honestly believe that a 50 cent piece of
Styrofoam that can be crushed with a finger would protect a skull
(clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^
Agreed. I was hit by a motorcycle two years ago and the indent in

the

Quoted message said:

helmet was better there then in my head. Last week I was hit by a car
turning left right in front of me and I could not brake fast enough
without hitting the car. The woman did not stop even though she knew
she hit me. My other rider and a car chased her and stopped her. As I
fell to the left my head was hit by her rear wheel and with the helmet
on

What this newbie gets from all the accidents I am reading about is the
following.....Stay in the park so you don't get killed or get hat hair
from wearing a helmet. Not to be flip about all this, but all the
accident stories make me feel as if riding a bike in traffic is not
worth it. I am too old to die this young. I made it to age 50.....I'd
like to keep going.
http://hometown.aol.com/lbuset/

On 9 Nov 2004 05:08:54 -0800, Maggie quoth:

Quoted message said:

What this newbie gets from all the accidents I am reading about is the
following.....Stay in the park so you don't get killed or get hat hair
from wearing a helmet. Not to be flip about all this, but all the
accident stories make me feel as if riding a bike in traffic is not
worth it. I am too old to die this young. I made it to age 50.....I'd
like to keep going.

Riding in a car is going to kill you much sooner than riding a bike.

Having "hat hair" beats having "wind-hair", IMHO.

bkr

"Maggie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

larryaus <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Leo Lichtman said:

"AustinMN" wrote: Do you honestly believe that a 50 cent piece of
Styrofoam that can be crushed with a finger would protect a skull
(clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^
Agreed. I was hit by a motorcycle two years ago and the indent in

the

Quoted message said:

helmet was better there then in my head. Last week I was hit by a car
turning left right in front of me and I could not brake fast enough
without hitting the car. The woman did not stop even though she knew
she hit me. My other rider and a car chased her and stopped her. As I
fell to the left my head was hit by her rear wheel and with the helmet
on

What this newbie gets from all the accidents I am reading about is the
following.....Stay in the park so you don't get killed or get hat hair
from wearing a helmet. Not to be flip about all this, but all the
accident stories make me feel as if riding a bike in traffic is not
worth it. I am too old to die this young. I made it to age 50.....I'd
like to keep going.
http://hometown.aol.com/lbuset/

Maggie,

Here's a bit of confusing perspective. This is the dialog that took place
between me and the ER physician after the ambulance delivered me there.

Physician: "You're very lucky to be alive. Were it not for the incredible
shape you're in, you wouldn't be.

Me: "Indeed, the bike is responsible for the shape I'm in."

Bob C.

Leo Lichtman said:

"AustinMN" wrote: Do you honestly believe that a 50 cent piece of
Styrofoam that can be crushed with a finger would protect a skull (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^
I honestly believe that a properly shaped Styrofoam surround is capable of
protecting what is within it. That is why I drive home with eggs in a
Styrofoam container, and why most delicate products are packaged by the
manufacturers in Styrofoam. Are you aware that almost all car bumpers are
now made of such foam? It is the fact that it crushes in an orderly
manner that provides the protection.

That does not prove that helmets prevent head injuries, but I hate to see
the wrong arguments used.

If you hate to see the wrong argument used, why did you go so far out of
your way to divorce the comment from it's context (even to the point of
snipping it mid-sentence)? I have no doubt that a Styrofoam hat can protect
one's head from what it's designed to protect it from...scrapes and bruises,
maybe a mild concussion.

But the context of my statement was where someone's brains had been forced
out of their skull. Expecting a foam hat to protect against that is like
expecting an egg carton to protect the eggs from someone stomping on them.

Austin
--
I'm pedaling as fast as I durn well please!
There are no X characters in my address

"AustinMN" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Leo Lichtman said:

"AustinMN" wrote: Do you honestly believe that a 50 cent piece of
Styrofoam that can be crushed with a finger would protect a skull
(clip) ^^^^^^^^^^^^
I honestly believe that a properly shaped Styrofoam surround is
capable of protecting what is within it. That is why I drive home
with eggs in a Styrofoam container, and why most delicate products
are packaged by the manufacturers in Styrofoam. Are you aware that
almost all car bumpers are now made of such foam? It is the fact
that it crushes in an orderly manner that provides the protection.

That does not prove that helmets prevent head injuries, but I hate to
see the wrong arguments used.

If you hate to see the wrong argument used, why did you go so far out
of your way to divorce the comment from it's context (even to the
point of snipping it mid-sentence)? I have no doubt that a Styrofoam
hat can protect one's head from what it's designed to protect it
from...scrapes and bruises, maybe a mild concussion.

But the context of my statement was where someone's brains had been
forced out of their skull. Expecting a foam hat to protect against
that is like expecting an egg carton to protect the eggs from someone
stomping on them.

Austin

Wear your helmet and shut, Austin!

"AustinMN" wrote: If you hate to see the wrong argument used, why did you go
so far out of your way to divorce the comment from it's context (even to
the point of snipping it mid-sentence?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
My snipping was not intended to alter the meaning, nor do I think it did. I
prefer responses to be focussed on the point being responded to--I hate to
wade through the entire thread over and over again as I attempt to find what
is new at the end.

Perhaps some others in this group would like to comment on this.

On 9 Nov 2004 05:08:54 -0800, [email hidden] (Maggie)

Quoted message said:

larryaus <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Leo Lichtman said:

"AustinMN" wrote: Do you honestly believe that a 50 cent piece of
Styrofoam that can be crushed with a finger would protect a skull
(clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^
Agreed. I was hit by a motorcycle two years ago and the indent in

the

Quoted message said:

helmet was better there then in my head. Last week I was hit by a car
turning left right in front of me and I could not brake fast enough
without hitting the car. The woman did not stop even though she knew
she hit me. My other rider and a car chased her and stopped her. As I
fell to the left my head was hit by her rear wheel and with the helmet
on

What this newbie gets from all the accidents I am reading about is the
following.....Stay in the park so you don't get killed or get hat hair
from wearing a helmet. Not to be flip about all this, but all the
accident stories make me feel as if riding a bike in traffic is not
worth it. I am too old to die this young. I made it to age 50.....I'd
like to keep going.
http://hometown.aol.com/lbuset/

You don't actually exist, according to the anti-cyclist fearmongers.

--
"Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its
victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under
robber-barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber-
baron's cruelty may at some point be satiated; but those who
torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they
do so with the approval of their own conscience."

- C.S. Lewis

Leo Lichtman said:

"AustinMN" wrote: If you hate to see the wrong argument used, why did you
go so far out of your way to divorce the comment from it's context (even
to the point of snipping it mid-sentence?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
My snipping was not intended to alter the meaning, nor do I think it did.

First, you broke the thread (so that it becomes difficult for others to find
my original post (and learn what I actually said). Then you claim that your
clipped quote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Do you honestly believe that a 50 cent piece of Styrofoam that can be
crushed with a finger would protect a skull

has the same intent as my actual statement:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Do you honestly believe that a 50 cent piece of Styrofoam that can be
crushed with a finger would protect a skull (which, by the way, is many,
many times harder than the Styrofoam hat) from that kind of trauma?

The inappropriate clip makes it sound like I am claiming helmets can't
protect one's skull. What I'm actually claiming is that a Styrofoam helmet
won't protect a skull from a trauma capable of causing a person's brains to
be squeezed out of that skull.

Quoted message said:

I prefer responses to be focussed on the point being responded to--I hate
to
wade through the entire thread over and over again as I attempt to find
what
is new at the end.

This is valid, but this is not what you did. You invented a point that was
not even there by surgically altering the sentence, removing the context and
then responding to that.

Quoted message said:

Perhaps some others in this group would like to comment on this.

Yes, indeed. I'd like to hear what others have to say.

Austin
--
I'm pedaling as fast as I durn well please!
There are no X characters in my address

Beaker <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Having "hat hair" beats having "wind-hair", IMHO.

bkr

That is my husbands philosophy......he will wear a hat to avoid "wind
hair" but I think that has something to do with a receding hair line.
When men get older they begin to LOVE hats on windy days. ;-)
Personally I will take "Wind Hair" over HAT HAIR in a heartbeat. My
hairline is just fine and the wind blowing through my hair is great.
Just my opinion. BUT...(why is there always a "but".....My hair is
very long so maybe it would not be that great while trying to ride a
bike. 2nd thoughts here.
HAT HAIR...WIND HAIR....ummmmmmmm
http://hometown.aol.com/lbuset/

Dan said:

Wear your helmet and shut, Austin!

<plonk>

Austin
--
I'm pedaling as fast as I durn well please!
There are no X characters in my address

Quoted message said:

Here's a bit of confusing perspective. This is the dialog that took place
between me and the ER physician after the ambulance delivered me there.

Physician: "You're very lucky to be alive. Were it not for the incredible
shape you're in, you wouldn't be.

Me: "Indeed, the bike is responsible for the shape I'm in."

Bob C.

That's too funny. Yes indeed, that bike was responsible for both
conditions you were in. The incredible shape and the bruised and
battered shape. I guess there is an up side and a down side to
everything in life. :-)
Very witty comeback to the Doc. Can I steal it if I ever get in
incredibly good shape and end up in the ER???
http://hometown.aol.com/lbuset/

"Leo Lichtman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"AustinMN" wrote: Do you honestly believe that a 50 cent piece of
Styrofoam that can be crushed with a finger would protect a skull (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^
I honestly believe that a properly shaped Styrofoam surround is capable of
protecting what is within it. That is why I drive home with eggs in a
Styrofoam container, and why most delicate products are packaged by the
manufacturers in Styrofoam. Are you aware that almost all car bumpers are
now made of such foam? It is the fact that it crushes in an orderly

manner

Quoted message said:

that provides the protection.

That does not prove that helmets prevent head injuries, but I hate to see
the wrong arguments used.

I have no doubt whatsoever that helmets can be beneficial. I believe that
every cyclist should have one and wear it.

I totally disagree with mandatory helmet laws though. The main reason for me
is that I believe my safety is helped far more by the large number of
(mostly unhelmeted) cyclists on my city's (Toronto) streets. The fewer
cyclists, the more dangerous the roads.

Helmets help, but having drivers experienced in dealing with cyclists in
traffic helps a lot more. And what would help the most is somehow making
sure all urban cyclists are properly taught how to ride safely in the city.

If politicians really cared about improving safety for cyclists, they would
fix the problem (bad drivers, bad cyclists), not band-aid the symptoms
(helmet laws).

That's what I think,

Paul

On Tue, 9 Nov 2004 14:25:31 -0600, "AustinMN" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Leo Lichtman said:

"AustinMN" wrote: If you hate to see the wrong argument used, why did you
go so far out of your way to divorce the comment from it's context (even
to the point of snipping it mid-sentence?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
My snipping was not intended to alter the meaning, nor do I think it did.

First, you broke the thread (so that it becomes difficult for others to find
my original post (and learn what I actually said). Then you claim that your
clipped quote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Do you honestly believe that a 50 cent piece of Styrofoam that can be
> crushed with a finger would protect a skull

has the same intent as my actual statement:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Do you honestly believe that a 50 cent piece of Styrofoam that can be
> crushed with a finger would protect a skull (which, by the way, is many,
> many times harder than the Styrofoam hat) from that kind of trauma?

The inappropriate clip makes it sound like I am claiming helmets can't
protect one's skull. What I'm actually claiming is that a Styrofoam helmet
won't protect a skull from a trauma capable of causing a person's brains to
be squeezed out of that skull.

So either Leo hasn't a clue about the type of injuries helmets are
designed and can be reasonably expected to protect a person from or he
is quite aware and realizes that duplicity and intellectual dishonesty
in a flimsy attempt to discredit the poster are about the only tactics
he can muster against sound arguments.

--
"Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its
victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under
robber-barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber-
baron's cruelty may at some point be satiated; but those who
torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they
do so with the approval of their own conscience."

- C.S. Lewis

9 Nov 2004 05:08:54 -0800,
<[email hidden]>,

(Maggie) said:

larryaus <[email hidden]> wrote:

\snip

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Last week I was hit by a car
turning left right in front of me and I could not brake fast enough
without hitting the car. The woman did not stop even though she knew
she hit me. My other rider and a car chased her and stopped her. As I
fell to the left my head was hit by her rear wheel and with the helmet
on

What this newbie gets from all the accidents I am reading about is the
following.....Stay in the park so you don't get killed or get hat hair
from wearing a helmet.

What this crusty crumbly (thanks, Guy) sees is a fatal curse that
befalls posters from <cyclingforums.com>. There must be or else
there's prizes awarded for near-death ride stories or something. Those
guys are dangerous. I wouldn't ride with them if I were you.

To me it sounds like he hit the car. It happens, though it may have
been predictable and prevented by rider awareness and preparedness for
just such an entirely common bone headed scud stunt.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Not to be flip about all this, but all the

accident stories make me feel as if riding a bike in traffic is not
worth it. I am too old to die this young. I made it to age 50.....I'd
like to keep going.

A vehicular cycling course will help prepare you for that after you
re-gain your basic bike skills and some fitness. Stick to paths,
knowing you're more likely to have minor collisions, and quiet back
streets while you develop your confidence.

Hats can be a style statement and as such perhaps shouldn't be given
any more concern than that.
--
zk

Tue, 9 Nov 2004 16:27:45 -0500, <[email hidden]>,

Paul R said:

If politicians really cared about improving safety for cyclists, they would
fix the problem (bad drivers, bad cyclists), not band-aid the symptoms
(helmet laws).

That's what I think,

I think if helmet laws are effective at keeping people off bicycles
we'll only see more of them enacted.
--
zk

"Zoot Katz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tue, 9 Nov 2004 16:27:45 -0500, <[email hidden]>,

Paul R said:

If politicians really cared about improving safety for cyclists, they

would

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

fix the problem (bad drivers, bad cyclists), not band-aid the symptoms
(helmet laws).

That's what I think,

I think if helmet laws are effective at keeping people off bicycles
we'll only see more of them enacted.
--

heh heh, sad, but true in many places!!

"Maggie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Here's a bit of confusing perspective. This is the dialog that took
place
between me and the ER physician after the ambulance delivered me there.

Physician: "You're very lucky to be alive. Were it not for the
incredible
shape you're in, you wouldn't be.

Me: "Indeed, the bike is responsible for the shape I'm in."

Bob C.

That's too funny. Yes indeed, that bike was responsible for both
conditions you were in. The incredible shape and the bruised and
battered shape. I guess there is an up side and a down side to
everything in life. :-)
Very witty comeback to the Doc. Can I steal it if I ever get in
incredibly good shape and end up in the ER???
http://hometown.aol.com/lbuset/

I wish I could claim credit for wittiness. I didn't realize what I'd said
until after it came out. Then I thought to myself, "that was amazingly
witty for someone lying here mangled, in shock, who hasn't yet had any pain
killing drugs."

I hope you won't find occassion to use it, but if you do, I hope you can.

Bob C.