Helmet propaganda debunked

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Scientific journals are finally taking a close look at bogus helmet
claims:

http://www.bikebiz.co.uk/daily-news/article.php?id=5495

JFJ

I followed the link and read the article. Didn't see much of anything
substantive to say that NOT wearing a helmet is as safe as wearing one.

As one who was hit head-on by a teenage driver talking on a cell phone ...
who subsequently was knocked 30 feet into the air and landed on my head on
the pavement (per documented eyewitness accounts), and who not only survived
the incident, but survived it with no head injury whatsoever (despite a
number of other injuries like a broken hip, pelvis and ankle), I'll
wholeheartedly endorse today's helmets and their ability to provide
meaningful protection.

Maybe that particular study is suspect. It shouldn't become an excuse for
people to be stupid and to abandon common sense.

Oh ... I'm pro-helmet, but anti-compulsion. I'm also anti-stupidity and
especially anti-clinical study to the exclusion of all experiencial data.

--
Bob C.

"Of course it hurts. The trick is not minding that it hurts."
T. E. Lawrence (of Arabia)

"psycholist" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Snip

Quoted message said:

Oh ... I'm pro-helmet, but anti-compulsion. I'm also anti-stupidity and
especially anti-clinical study to the exclusion of all experiencial data.

--
Bob C.

That's exactly my stance. I quote from BikeBiz.com, "BikeBiz.com is
fiercely pro-helmet but anti-compulsion."

Quoted message said:

Scientific journals are finally taking a close look at bogus helmet
claims:

http://www.bikebiz.co.uk/daily-news/article.php?id=5495

JFJ

I'm always perplexed by this debate. Many of us have first hand
experience with a helmet preventing or minimizing injury. With modern
lightweight construction I'm hard put to see the downside.
Is the arguement over the 85% claim? If so, from a practical matter
wouldn't it be OK if the reduction was only half that.

Now the compulsory thing is something else. I'm not for much in the way
of compulsion for adults.

Lots of sports have had this debate and most top level atheltes now use
helmets. This debate went on for football many years ago. Can you
imagine playing football w/o a helmet? How many hockey players are
helmetless? And even rock climbers - a notoriously independent group-
are starting to use helmets more and more.

gds said:

With modern
lightweight construction I'm hard put to see the downside.

The problem is that helmets are designed down to the barest minimum to
pass the standards. The data in the oft-cited Harborview study is based
on much beefier helmets than any that are worn today; it was a good
study in it's day but has had no value for the past half decade. There
doesn't seem to be any good studies proving the effectiveness of modern
bike helmets...and, no, annecdotes don't count.

With bike helmets, the more you pay, the less protection you get (but
better venting and style, lighter weight). The happy medium (reasonable
comfort and protection) is probably in the mid-priced helmets, not the
high-end.

Quoted message said:

Scientific journals are finally taking a close look at bogus helmet
claims:

http://www.bikebiz.co.uk/daily-news/article.php?id=5495

JFJ

Is it time for this flame war again?

Whenever there's a helmet thread, I'm always amazed at the number of people
who show up as experts about an experience they've been fortunate never to
have had. It's equally amazing to me how quick they are to discard the
input of those who HAVE had the experience.

SHOW ME THE DATA! They say.

Guess what folks, lots of cyclists have falls and smack their heads.
Because they're wearing helmets, they're able to get up and ride on. Their
experience never makes it into any report or database.

I am very well acquainted with the limitations of statistics and the ways
they can be manipulated. The old study promoting helmet use is supposedly
being debunked. I've sure seen lots of suspect data on these threads
offered by those who are pushing an anti-helmet agenda. Data is always
subject to interpretation.

--
Bob C.

"Of course it hurts. The trick is not minding that it hurts."
T. E. Lawrence (of Arabia)

[email hidden] wrote:
....and, no, annecdotes don't count.

Quoted message said:

Why? Lots of anecdotes DO mean something. Take aside the idea of
compulsion. Is it being argued that helmets add NO safety? Anecdotes do
prove that there is SOME benefit. So, if there is a positive benefit
and they are comfortable? I still am perplexed by the vitriolic
oppostion.

gds said:

[email hidden] wrote:
...and, no, annecdotes don't count.

Quoted message said:

Why? Lots of anecdotes DO mean something. Take aside the idea of
compulsion. Is it being argued that helmets add NO safety? Anecdotes

do

Quoted message said:

prove that there is SOME benefit. So, if there is a positive benefit
and they are comfortable? I still am perplexed by the vitriolic
oppostion.

I'm not so sure I can address the issue of 'vitriolic' opposition, but
I'll share with you why I think many (myself included) are opposed to
the pro-helmet forces.

1) there is little, if any, evidence to show they work
2) studies show that in cycling, like other activities such as skiing,
when you over-emphasis the necessity for safety gear, you give the
false impression that the activity is inherently dangerous, which
typically leads to less people participating in the activity
3) in some areas where mandatory helmet laws have been enacted, there's
evidence of an INCREASE in head injuries
4) did I mention that there's no evidence that helmets work? (at least,
not under real world conditions)

Don't need a nanny-state bureaucrat telling me to save me from myself.

psycholist said:

I've sure seen lots of suspect data on these threads offered by
those who are pushing an anti-helmet agenda.

What anti-helmet agenda? Are people forcing you not to wear a helmet?

Anecdotes? You mean the ones where I've come off my bike many times or
where I have been hit by cars three times over a few decades with no
helmet and suffering nothing worse than a separated shoulder. Then
there are the thousands of accidents that other helmetless people have
(lid wearers are still the minority) but who just dust themselves off
and get back on their bikes without reporting it on Usenet as miracles
to be braodcast to the world.

Face it, you have been duped by propaganda (and, it seems, by religious
experiences).

[email hidden] wrote:
people have

Quoted message said:

(lid wearers are still the minority)

Certainly not in all the places I ride!

Quoted message said:

Face it, you have been duped by propaganda (and, it seems, by

religious

Quoted message said:

experiences).

Religios experiences! I'm an atheist!!

Hey, I don't care if you wear one or not. But I've personally witnessed
(anecdotal evidence) folks fall, have the helmet crack apart, and they
walked away with no significant injury. Anecdotal but compelling.

Probably my head isn't quite as hard as yours so I'm happy to have a
little extra protection.

I've now ridden with a helmet for so long that it is 2nd nature and I
really don't find it bothers me in any way. This is a far cry from the
early Bell helmets that required quite a strong neck to keep the head
upright.

gds said:

[email hidden] wrote:
people have

Quoted message said:

(lid wearers are still the minority)

Certainly not in all the places I ride!

Quoted message said:

Face it, you have been duped by propaganda (and, it seems, by

religious

Quoted message said:

experiences).

Religios experiences! I'm an atheist!!

Hey, I don't care if you wear one or not. But I've personally witnessed
(anecdotal evidence) folks fall, have the helmet crack apart, and they
walked away with no significant injury. Anecdotal but compelling.

OMG! They would have died. NEVER LEAVE HOME WIHTOUT A HELMET.

JT

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If all the helmet-saved-my-life anecdotes translated into statistical
trends then there'd be no argument from me but they have not.
Widespread helmet use has made no significant change to cyclist head
injuries among populations. And now we find out the most widely-quoted
case/control study is confirmed as bogus.

(ps even atheists ascribe mystical powers to helmets)

Quoted message said:

If all the helmet-saved-my-life anecdotes translated into statistical
trends then there'd be no argument from me but they have not.
Widespread helmet use has made no significant change to cyclist head
injuries among populations. And now we find out the most widely-quoted
case/control study is confirmed as bogus.

(ps even atheists ascribe mystical powers to helmets)

Dear pro- and anti-helmet dumbasses,

People wear, or do not wear, helmets because it is statistically proven
or unproven to be important in a bad crash. They wear them on the
off-chance they'll be the unusual lucky one to get an improbable
benefit.

gwhite said:

People wear, or do not wear, helmets because it is statistically proven
or unproven to be important in a bad crash. They wear them on the
off-chance they'll be the unusual lucky one to get an improbable
benefit.

They're great for coping with low-hanging branches and as a place to
stick lights and mirrors for commuting. Any good studies about falling
with a light on top and a big mirror hanging on the side?

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

Quoted message said:

(ps even atheists ascribe mystical powers to helmets)

I remember Descarte's "I think so I am" and you just moved my position
to "I believe so it is." :-)

But I must agree that the debate takes on a religous air of believers
vs. non believers. I've pretty much given up in that realm so I'll drop
out this one as well.
But I will wear my helmet. I like the color!