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Helmet Debate

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UK and Europe
Published
30 June 2005
Last activity
9 July 2005
Original author
David Bentley
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201
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  1. Since having a nasty fall on a level crossing and putting a nice dent in
    my helmet, I am no longer a reluctant helmet wearer.

    My wife told our neighbour about the incident and she told her that a
    few years ago one of her friends came off her bike on a family ride, no
    other vehicles were involved, hit her head on the road and died. She
    wasn't wearing a helmet.

    My head hit the ground with quite a force and I'm sure I would not have
    managed to carry on with the ride had I not been wearing a helmet. Its
    all well and good practising how to fall and get your head away from the
    ground, but in fall such as the one I had it happens so quickly there
    is no time to think.

    Just my few thoughts
    --
    David Bentley

  2. David Bentley said:

    Since having a nasty fall on a level crossing and putting a nice dent in
    my helmet, I am no longer a reluctant helmet wearer.

    My wife told our neighbour about the incident and she told her that a
    few years ago one of her friends came off her bike on a family ride, no
    other vehicles were involved, hit her head on the road and died. She
    wasn't wearing a helmet.

    My head hit the ground with quite a force and I'm sure I would not have
    managed to carry on with the ride had I not been wearing a helmet. Its
    all well and good practising how to fall and get your head away from the
    ground, but in fall such as the one I had it happens so quickly there
    is no time to think.

    Just my few thoughts

    *Sigh*

    Last time I went for a ride, I didn't fall off my bike. Luckily, I
    wasn't wearing my helmet at the time - I say lucky because I often
    do wear it. If I had been wearing it, and not fallen off, I could
    have been not severely injured at all!

    I didn't hit my head with any force at all! There wasn't even a dent,
    it was fantastic, and I'll never not fail to neglect to not wear a helmet
    again! Or something.

    So, my anecdotal evidence suggests that not wearing a helmet may or
    may not make a differece or not depending on wether or not I don't
    or do whatever it isn't that didn't not happen last time I did or
    didn't do whatever it was.

    Just my few thoughts

    --
    Nobby

  3. On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 07:42:23 GMT someone who may be David Bentley
    <[email hidden]> wrote this:-

    Quoted message said:

    Just my few thoughts

    Here are some other people's thoughts
    http://www.cyclehelmets.org/mf.html#1019

    --
    David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
    I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
    prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.

  4. David Bentley <[email hidden]> wrote in news:nukQw4CaF6wCFw10
    @ntlworld.com:

    Quoted message said:

    Just my few thoughts

    Noooooo!!!
    (although it may not sound so, this post is not meant to be taken as a
    criticism but rather as a friendly warning to run and hide whilst you can!)

    Please, read a few of the other numerous threads on helmets before posting
    your helmet thoughts. If you'd done so then you'd realise that you have
    just opened yourself up to numerous posts pointing out how wrong/right you
    are (most would be saying you are wrong).

    Most of the threads have a number of links to sites on the effectiveness of
    helmets. Read a few of them first and also bear in mind how people's
    personal experiences can give them a biased view of some issues.

    Graeme

  5. David Bentley came up with the following;:

    Quoted message said:

    Since having a nasty fall on a level crossing and putting a nice dent in
    my helmet, I am no longer a reluctant helmet wearer.

    If it makes you happy, fine.

    Quoted message said:

    Just my few thoughts

    Yes.

    --
    Paul ...
    (8(|) Homer Rules ..... Doh !!!

    Fantic 307 Trials on ebay 4558564657
    Beamish 250 Trials on ebay 4558878921

  6. David Bentley said:

    Its
    all well and good practising how to fall and get your head away from the
    ground, but in fall such as the one I had it happens so quickly there
    is no time to think.

    There's really no point in practicing. We are evolved to protect our most vital
    'bits', and will react far faster than we can think.

    It's also very hard to overcome our preprogramming.

    I'll bet that even if you had a guaranteed 100% effective against anything
    helmet, you'd *still* be more likely to end up with arm injuries as your
    reflexes kicked in to protect your head.

  7. David Bentley said:


    My head hit the ground with quite a force and I'm sure I would not have
    managed to carry on with the ride had I not been wearing a helmet.

    I've never hit my head falling off without a helmet; I have hit my head
    several times falling off wearing a helmet. Helmets add half a kilogram
    mass to my head. Go figure.

    --
    Tony

    "I did make a mistake once - I thought I'd made a mistake but I hadn't"
    Anon

  8. Tony Raven said:
    David Bentley said:


    My head hit the ground with quite a force and I'm sure I would not have
    managed to carry on with the ride had I not been wearing a helmet.

    I've never hit my head falling off without a helmet; I have hit my head
    several times falling off wearing a helmet. Helmets add half a kilogram
    mass to my head. Go figure.

    Plus, they increase the size of your head, so you're that little bit more likely
    to make contact.

  9. David Bentley said:

    Since having a nasty fall on a level crossing and putting a nice dent in
    my helmet, I am no longer a reluctant helmet wearer.

    And I wonder if you're a reluctant troll?

    Quoted message said:

    My wife told our neighbour about the incident and she told her that a
    few years ago one of her friends came off her bike on a family ride, no
    other vehicles were involved, hit her head on the road and died. She
    wasn't wearing a helmet.

    Guy knows of a couple of old chaps from his vicinity who came off their
    bikes, no other vehicles involved, and the Late one was wearing a helmet
    and the living one wasn't. So what does your neighbour think of that?

    Welcome to the world of anecdotal evidence, where you can prove anything
    you like with statistically insignificant information! If you look at
    the full-on population data then the sample base rules out unusual
    incidents in both directions to a considerable degree. And what you are
    left with is *no* clear evidence of helmets reducing risks of serious
    injuries.

    A better lesson to learn than "always wear a helmet" might be always
    cross rails (be they for railways or cattle grids or tramlines or
    whatever) at as close to 90 degrees as you can manage, and consider
    hopping the front wheel over them completely. That way you don't fall
    off, so your headgear is irrelevant. Dutch cyclists have lots of level
    crossings and tramlines to deal with, yet almost none of them wear
    helmets outside of sporting use. Think about that...

    Pete.
    --
    Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
    Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
    Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
    net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

  10. Peter Clinch said:

    Dutch cyclists have lots of level
    crossings and tramlines to deal with, yet almost none of them wear
    helmets outside of sporting use. Think about that...

    And it's worth noting that they only wear them for sporting use because
    the rules insist on it (which, by the way, says nothing about the
    effectiveness or otherwise of helmets in preventing injuries).

    d.

  11. David Bentley said:

    Just my few thoughts

    I don't believe there was any element of thought in what you wrote.

    If you had put any thought into the matter, you might have thought
    better of posting this rubbish.

    d.

  12. davek said:

    And it's worth noting that they only wear them for sporting use because
    the rules insist on it

    A fair few roadies out for a good fast hack rather than being in a
    formal race seem to wear them (though plenty of others don't, mind).
    But there is a very obvious divide between cycling for sport, which
    involves lycra and drop bar featherweight bikes with no extras, and
    sometimes helmets, and cycling for transport, which involves everyday
    clothes and roadsters with mudguards and chaincases, and almost never
    involves helmets.

    Pete.
    --
    Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
    Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
    Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
    net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

  13. Peter Clinch said:

    A fair few roadies out for a good fast hack rather than being in a
    formal race seem to wear them

    True, but I think that's partly because they feel they are expected to
    - or they assume that because they have to wear one when racing, they
    must be A Good Thing (because shurely the Powers That Be wouldn't
    implement a rule without good solid reasons behind it? I mean, when
    have they ever done that before...).

    And yes, you do see increasing numbers of Pro riders insisting on
    wearing a helmet even on those rare occasions when they aren't required
    to by rules, but I doubt any of them have really thought the matter
    through or taken the trouble to find out just how little protection a
    cycle helmet really gives them.

    And when you are going at the speeds the Pros go at, the level of
    protection offered by a cycle helmet is negligible at best - I know I
    don't need to tell /you/ all this, Pete, but one has to wonder why the
    Pros aren't better informed. After all, it's only their livelihood.
    You'd think they might show some level of interest in the equipment
    they use to do their job.

    d.

  14. davek said:

    Pros aren't better informed. After all, it's only their livelihood.
    You'd think they might show some level of interest in the equipment
    they use to do their job.

    Yebbut they probably believe that a radially-spoked wheel has a harder ride
    than a tangentially-spoked one...

    --
    Dave Larrington - <http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/>
    Every establishment needs an opposition.

  15. in message <[email hidden]>, David Bentley

    (') said:

    Since having a nasty fall on a level crossing and putting a nice dent
    in my helmet, I am no longer a reluctant helmet wearer.

    My wife told our neighbour about the incident and she told her that a
    few years ago one of her friends came off her bike on a family ride,
    no
    other vehicles were involved, hit her head on the road and died. She
    wasn't wearing a helmet.

    My head hit the ground with quite a force and I'm sure I would not
    have managed to carry on with the ride had I not been wearing a
    helmet. Its all well and good practising how to fall and get your head
    away from the
    ground, but in fall such as the one I had it happens so quickly there
    is no time to think.

    I note your comments. I have recently inspected the helmet of an
    acquaintance who fell on a cattle grid in a similar accident to your
    own. The helmet he wore definitely worked - it was heavily crushed in
    the area above the left ear, but had not split or broken - so it had
    certainly absorbed a lot of energy. This sort of accident - fall from
    the bike at relatively low speeds, with no other vehicle involved - are
    the sorts of accidents which helmets can be expected to help with; and
    that's the reason I do sometimes wear one off-road.

    And, of course, no-one's immune to falls on wet metal surfaces. It's a
    feature of the roads I ride that I too cross cattle grids (and very
    occasionally rails), and although I do so carefully I don't have magic
    powers to keep me upright. As you observe, metal surfaces (and ice,
    which is similar) can give rise to very sudden falls, where you have no
    warning and no time to react.

    But.

    Simple falls from a bike are unlikely to cause severe injury. We've
    evolved over millions of years to fall and to survive it. Yes, of
    course you can get bruising, cuts, concussion and so on, and none of
    these are pleasant; but they're equally not particularly life
    threatening. And falls of this kind are rare - I haven't fallen off a
    road bike at any speed in the past thirty years, and though I've fallen
    off mountain bikes probably over a thousand times I've never hit my
    head at all and haven't had an injury requiring any medical attention
    as a result of a bike accident since I was thirteen (two stitches in
    the ball of my thumb).

    The fact is that there are many more people in Britain with 'a helmet
    saved my life' stories than there are cyclist casualties in the average
    year in Holland, where virtually no-one wears a helmet. Falls are very
    frightening and thus very memorable; the amount of damage done to a
    helmet in a simple fall is considerable and looks dramatic. From these
    things people are inclined to believe that without the helmet they
    would have been severely injured. In most cases they simply would not.

    And in the cases where severe injury is a serious risk - high energy
    impacts, for example with a moving motor vehicle or on a very high
    speed descent, or onto a very sharp or jagged edge - helmets won't help
    much at best. They're simply not very strong; they aren't designed to
    mitigate that sort of impact. Indeed, there is some evidence that they
    may aggravate such impacts.

    The fact that you can't get away from is that the places where fewest
    people wear helmets are also the places where cycling is safest, and
    that as helmet wearing increases so do KSI rates. I don't pretend to
    know why this is; but what is certain is that helmets do not, overall,
    increase safety. And the inescapable conclusion must be that, since
    helmets observably do help in incidents such as yours, there must be
    balancing classes of incidents where helmets make things worse.

    So it seems to me that when considering helmets one has to put to one
    side entirely the 'helmet saved my life' stories. While some of them
    may be true, we know from the statistics that there must be an at least
    equal number of 'helmet caused my death' stories which aren't being
    told. The utility of helmets is not in preventing major injuries, but
    in mitigating minor ones. Given that, the choice of whether to wear a
    helmet or not boils down to a choice to endure low level discomfort
    over a long time in order to protect against higher levels of
    discomfort over shorter times, and for me that trade-off just isn't
    worth it.

    --
    [email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
    Iraq war: it's time for regime change...
    ... go now, Tony, while you can still go with dignity.
    [update 18 months after this .sig was written: it's still relevant]

  16. davek said:
    Peter Clinch said:

    A fair few roadies out for a good fast hack rather than being in a
    formal race seem to wear them

    True, but I think that's partly because they feel they are expected to
    - or they assume that because they have to wear one when racing, they
    must be A Good Thing (because shurely the Powers That Be wouldn't
    implement a rule without good solid reasons behind it? I mean, when
    have they ever done that before...).

    And yes, you do see increasing numbers of Pro riders insisting on
    wearing a helmet even on those rare occasions when they aren't required
    to by rules, but I doubt any of them have really thought the matter
    through or taken the trouble to find out just how little protection a
    cycle helmet really gives them.

    And when you are going at the speeds the Pros go at, the level of
    protection offered by a cycle helmet is negligible at best - I know I
    don't need to tell /you/ all this, Pete, but one has to wonder why the
    Pros aren't better informed. After all, it's only their livelihood.
    You'd think they might show some level of interest in the equipment
    they use to do their job.

    Yebbut racing cyclists are presumably more likely to be involved in
    a vrash involving only other cyclists, in which case a helmet might
    help. A cyclist riding alone is presumably more likely to be
    involed in a crash involving a motor vehicle, in which case a helmet
    is unlikely to help.

    --
    Nobby

  17. On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 07:42:23 GMT, David Bentley <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    Since having a nasty fall on a level crossing and putting a nice dent in
    my helmet, I am no longer a reluctant helmet wearer.

    You've canned the stupid thing because it made you careless, then? ;-)

    Guy
    --
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

    88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

  18. Peter Clinch said:

    A fair few roadies out for a good fast hack rather than being in a
    formal race seem to wear them

    They also wear team replica kit. Part of the fancy dress.

    Guy
    --
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

    88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

  19. Dave Larrington said:

    Yebbut they probably believe that a radially-spoked wheel has a harder ride
    than a tangentially-spoked one...

    Or that the hub hangs from the spokes...

    Guy
    --
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

    88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

  20. Just zis Guy said:

    They also wear team replica kit. Part of the fancy dress.

    Indeedy. Part of the distinction I saw in the NL between cycling and
    sports cycling. One is an everyday thing for normal people doing a
    normal thing in normal clothes, the other is a special occasion
    warranting special kit to differentiate it from the former.

    Pete.
    --
    Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
    Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
    Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
    net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

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