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Helmet controversy over. . .

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Road Cycling
Published
8 August 2005
Last activity
22 August 2005
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Donn Deniston
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  1. Golly, there certainly are a lot of opinions, data and interpretations
    associated with the helmet issue in this newsgroup! At first I thought
    Frank was a pompous blow-hard using the issue to strut his stuff, but I do
    think he's correct when he points out that cycling has been painted as
    certain danger by some and I'm inclined to agree with him as to the
    effectiveness (or non-effectiveness) of a helmet in a majority of cycling
    situations.

    Now, I'm not quite sure if it's a joint effort by the helmet manufacturers
    to boost sales (I've never been a conspiracy buff but even if it's true, I
    think there are probably one or two more pressing concerns in the world) or
    just the usual bunch of hand wringing busy bodies who are certain they know
    what's better for you than you do, but either way I'm pretty comfortable
    letting those who wish to wear a helmet do so and those that want to ride
    sans brain bucket do as they please too.

    My question is this, if the region you ride in has a helmet law, have you or
    do you know of anyone who has been pulled over or actually ticketed for
    riding bare headed? I'd hazard a guess that a majority of helmet laws are a
    CYA ploy and not very enforceable and not very high on a cop's list of
    "things-to-do".

    As for me, I've decided to handle this matter by covering myself in layers
    of bubble wrap from head to toe before each ride. Not only am I extra safe
    from injury but the total lack of ventilation and corresponding oceans of
    sweat speeds up the weight loss process. (Plus, I think Lance does it!)
    Anyone know if I can get this stuff with the Trek logo on it?

  2. Mon, 8 Aug 2005 18:23:25 -0400, <[email hidden]>,

    Donn Deniston said:

    My question is this, if the region you ride in has a helmet law, have you or
    do you know of anyone who has been pulled over or actually ticketed for
    riding bare headed?

    Yes. It's a maximum $100.00 fine.
    --
    zk

  3. "Donn Deniston" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    My question is this, if the region you ride in has a helmet law, have you


    or

    Quoted message said:

    do you know of anyone who has been pulled over or actually ticketed for
    riding bare headed? I'd hazard a guess that a majority of helmet laws are


    a

    Quoted message said:

    CYA ploy and not very enforceable and not very high on a cop's list of
    "things-to-do".

    I'm completely pro-helmet. Afterall, it is hard to be ANTI-helmet when a
    helmet saved your life.

    I don't know about helmet laws being a CIA ploy, but I'm totally against
    such laws. The government is totally naive to think such laws are going to
    make a difference. But, for cyclists, wearing helmets should be common
    sense. People should realize, if you get in an accident, the fine is REAL
    BIG if you *don't* wear one.

    I was wearing one. And after being hit, I got severe brain-damage, and I was
    comatosed for weeks. If it weren't for the helmet, I'd probably be a corpse.

    Cully_J

  4. "Cully_J" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    I'm completely pro-helmet. Afterall, it is hard to be ANTI-helmet when a
    helmet saved your life.

    Or so you believe, despite the absence of any way to prove it one way or
    another.

    Quoted message said:


    I don't know about helmet laws being a CIA ploy, but I'm totally against
    such laws. The government is totally naive to think such laws are going to
    make a difference. But, for cyclists, wearing helmets should be common
    sense. People should realize, if you get in an accident, the fine is REAL
    BIG if you *don't* wear one.

    Personally, I'm waiting for a collarbone helmet and a wrist helmet. My
    evidence, which is as compelling as yours, suggests that those are the body
    parts that most need protection.

    Quoted message said:

    I was wearing one. And after being hit, I got severe brain-damage, and I
    was
    comatosed for weeks. If it weren't for the helmet, I'd probably be a
    corpse.

    Newsflash: Cully admits his helmet failed to protect him from a head injury
    that caused brain damage and a coma.

    RichC

  5. Mon, 8 Aug 2005 19:31:09 -0400, <[email hidden]>,

    Rich Clark said:


    Personally, I'm waiting for a collarbone helmet and a wrist helmet. My
    evidence, which is as compelling as yours, suggests that those are the body
    parts that most need protection.

    According to the oft quoted studies, foam beanies prevent broken legs
    too. If I'd been wearing one, shin guards would've been redundant.
    --
    zk

  6. Zoot Katz said:
    Quoted message said:

    Personally, I'm waiting for a collarbone helmet and a wrist helmet. My
    evidence, which is as compelling as yours, suggests that those are the body
    parts that most need protection.

    They are perhaps the parts most likely be damaged, but some parts can be
    repaired and some cannot. I'll stick with protecting the brain.

  7. "Rich Clark" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Cully_J" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    I'm completely pro-helmet. Afterall, it is hard to be ANTI-helmet when a
    helmet saved your life.

    Or so you believe, despite the absence of any way to prove it one way or
    another.

    Let's see. After the accident I had a bolt inserted in my skull to relieve
    the "intercranial pressure". That's how hard the crash was. To me that's
    proof enough that, yes, it did save my life.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I don't know about helmet laws being a CIA ploy, but I'm totally against
    such laws. The government is totally naive to think such laws are going


    to

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    make a difference. But, for cyclists, wearing helmets should be common
    sense. People should realize, if you get in an accident, the fine is


    REAL

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    BIG if you *don't* wear one.

    Personally, I'm waiting for a collarbone helmet and a wrist helmet. My
    evidence, which is as compelling as yours, suggests that those are the


    body

    Quoted message said:

    parts that most need protection.

    Fortunately, the collarbone and wrist don't control the whole body, like the
    brain does.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I was wearing one. And after being hit, I got severe brain-damage, and I
    was
    comatosed for weeks. If it weren't for the helmet, I'd probably be a
    corpse.

    Quoted message said:

    Newsflash: Cully admits his helmet failed to protect him from a head


    injury

    Quoted message said:

    that caused brain damage and a coma.

    Clever. NEWSFLASH: But it did prevent me from dying!

    I really don't give a [censored] if you wear one or not. Luckily, I'm still around
    to suggest it.

    Cully

  8. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Zoot Katz said:

    Mon, 8 Aug 2005 18:23:25 -0400, <[email hidden]>,

    Donn Deniston said:

    My question is this, if the region you ride in has a helmet law, have you or
    do you know of anyone who has been pulled over or actually ticketed for
    riding bare headed?

    Yes. It's a maximum $100.00 fine.

    My next door neighbour got just a warning. But now
    he wears his lid every time he rides, just to avoid
    any hassle.

    cheers,
    Tom

    --
    -- Nothing is safe from me.
    Above address is just a spam midden.
    I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

  9. I hear you Cully! Your helmet may have been the only thing that accounts for
    your life today. Did it perform flawlessly, may be not? Did it make the
    difference, probably.

    Does R. Clark have a clue of what you went through, unlikely. Having seen
    road fatalities in just about every form, there is no iron clad answer.
    Cause? That is a different subject all together but not relevant to your
    survival.

    Brian

    "Cully_J" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Rich Clark" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Cully_J" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    I'm completely pro-helmet. Afterall, it is hard to be ANTI-helmet when
    a
    helmet saved your life.

    Or so you believe, despite the absence of any way to prove it one way or
    another.

    Let's see. After the accident I had a bolt inserted in my skull to relieve
    the "intercranial pressure". That's how hard the crash was. To me that's
    proof enough that, yes, it did save my life.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I don't know about helmet laws being a CIA ploy, but I'm totally
    against
    such laws. The government is totally naive to think such laws are going


    to

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    make a difference. But, for cyclists, wearing helmets should be common
    sense. People should realize, if you get in an accident, the fine is


    REAL

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    BIG if you *don't* wear one.

    Personally, I'm waiting for a collarbone helmet and a wrist helmet. My
    evidence, which is as compelling as yours, suggests that those are the


    body

    Quoted message said:

    parts that most need protection.

    Fortunately, the collarbone and wrist don't control the whole body, like
    the
    brain does.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I was wearing one. And after being hit, I got severe brain-damage, and
    I
    was
    comatosed for weeks. If it weren't for the helmet, I'd probably be a
    corpse.

    Quoted message said:

    Newsflash: Cully admits his helmet failed to protect him from a head


    injury

    Quoted message said:

    that caused brain damage and a coma.

    Clever. NEWSFLASH: But it did prevent me from dying!

    I really don't give a [censored] if you wear one or not. Luckily, I'm still
    around
    to suggest it.

    Cully

  10. I said CYA, as in Cover Your Ass, not CIA. And while I'm glad you survived
    your accident, I'm more pro-choice than pro-helmet.

    I wear a helmet 90% of the time mainly because I'm riding in traffic, and
    Michigan traffic no less, and while I don't think the helmet would do me
    much good if I really tangled with bubba in a pick-up, I do think it might
    help if an avoidance maneuver caused me to topple off my bike.

    ..
    "Cully_J" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Donn Deniston" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    My question is this, if the region you ride in has a helmet law, have


    you

    Quoted message said:

    or

    Quoted message said:

    do you know of anyone who has been pulled over or actually ticketed for
    riding bare headed? I'd hazard a guess that a majority of helmet laws


    are

    Quoted message said:

    a

    Quoted message said:

    CYA ploy and not very enforceable and not very high on a cop's list of
    "things-to-do".

    I'm completely pro-helmet. Afterall, it is hard to be ANTI-helmet when a
    helmet saved your life.

    I don't know about helmet laws being a CIA ploy, but I'm totally against
    such laws. The government is totally naive to think such laws are going to
    make a difference. But, for cyclists, wearing helmets should be common
    sense. People should realize, if you get in an accident, the fine is REAL
    BIG if you *don't* wear one.

    I was wearing one. And after being hit, I got severe brain-damage, and I


    was

    Quoted message said:

    comatosed for weeks. If it weren't for the helmet, I'd probably be a


    corpse.

    Quoted message said:


    Cully_J

  11. Mon, 08 Aug 2005 18:44:20 -0600, <[email hidden]>,

    Rich said:
    Zoot Katz never said:
    Quoted message said:

    Personally, I'm waiting for a collarbone helmet and a wrist helmet. My
    evidence, which is as compelling as yours, suggests that those are the body
    parts that most need protection.

    They are perhaps the parts most likely be damaged, but some parts can be
    repaired and some cannot. I'll stick with protecting the brain.

    Then leave it in the jar where it's safe.
    --
    zk

  12. Mon, 8 Aug 2005 17:52:17 -0700, <[email hidden]>,

    (Tom Keats) said:
    Quoted message said:

    Yes. It's a maximum $100.00 fine.

    My next door neighbour got just a warning. But now
    he wears his lid every time he rides, just to avoid
    any hassle.

    Donald's been to court twice to fight it. All he's gotten out of it is
    a reduced fine. He sometimes wears a helmet on his civilian bike.
    --
    zk

  13. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Zoot Katz said:

    Mon, 8 Aug 2005 17:52:17 -0700, <[email hidden]>,

    (Tom Keats) said:
    Quoted message said:

    Yes. It's a maximum $100.00 fine.

    My next door neighbour got just a warning. But now
    he wears his lid every time he rides, just to avoid
    any hassle.

    Donald's been to court twice to fight it. All he's gotten out of it is
    a reduced fine. He sometimes wears a helmet on his civilian bike.

    IIRC turban-wearing Sihks are exempt from the MHL.

    Hmmm, so are pedicab operators, apparently as long as
    it's a passenger pedicab, not a cargo pedicab:
    http://www.qp.gov.bc.ca/statreg/reg/M/MotorVehicle/261_96.htm

    cheers,
    Tom

    --
    -- Nothing is safe from me.
    Above address is just a spam midden.
    I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

  14. Mon, 8 Aug 2005 22:56:43 -0700, <[email hidden]>,
    [email hidden] (Tom Keats) wrote, of MHL:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Donald's been to court twice to fight it. All he's gotten out of it is
    a reduced fine. He sometimes wears a helmet on his civilian bike.

    IIRC turban-wearing Sihks are exempt from the MHL.


    Yeah, and then they discriminate against members of the "Church of the
    Spoken Wheel" because we don't own all the taxi licenses. I so rarely
    see a turban-wearing Sikh on a bike it's pretty much a non-issue.

    Quoted message said:

    Hmmm, so are pedicab operators, apparently as long as
    it's a passenger pedicab, not a cargo pedicab:
    http://www.qp.gov.bc.ca/statreg/reg/M/MotorVehicle/261_96.htm

    Anybody who can get a doctor's note is exempted too.
    --
    zk

  15. Cully_J said:

    "Donn Deniston" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    My question is this, if the region you ride in has a helmet law, have you

    or

    Quoted message said:

    do you know of anyone who has been pulled over or actually ticketed for
    riding bare headed? I'd hazard a guess that a majority of helmet laws are

    a

    Quoted message said:

    CYA ploy and not very enforceable and not very high on a cop's list of
    "things-to-do".

    I'm completely pro-helmet. Afterall, it is hard to be ANTI-helmet when a
    helmet saved your life.

    I don't know about helmet laws being a CIA ploy, but I'm totally against
    such laws. The government is totally naive to think such laws are going to
    make a difference. But, for cyclists, wearing helmets should be common
    sense. People should realize, if you get in an accident, the fine is REAL
    BIG if you *don't* wear one.

    I was wearing one. And after being hit, I got severe brain-damage, and I was
    comatosed for weeks. If it weren't for the helmet, I'd probably be a corpse.

    That means THE HELMET DID NOT WORK, lots of people can say the helmet
    saved my life, but unless you see exactly the same accident with a
    person of the same size, weight and body mass distribution, one with and
    one without a helmet, you don't know if the helmet helped, did nothing
    or made the situation worse.

    Didn't we go through this all 3 weeks ago....

    W

  16. [snip]

    Quoted message said:


    My question is this, if the region you ride in has a helmet law,


    have you or

    Quoted message said:

    do you know of anyone who has been pulled over or actually ticketed


    for

    Quoted message said:

    riding bare headed? I'd hazard a guess that a majority of helmet


    laws are a

    Quoted message said:

    CYA ploy and not very enforceable and not very high on a cop's list


    of

    Quoted message said:

    "things-to-do".

    There's no law here in Britain (except for kids on horses) but there
    is another legal problem. In case of an accident the motorist's
    insurance company invarably claim that they should only pay partial
    compensation because not wearing a helmet amounts to contributory
    negligence.

    When taken to court the insurance companies have never won, but its a
    hassle to have to make an accident a court case, and I don't think
    anyone knows what happened in all the accident cases where the victim
    didn't take things to court.

    Jeremy Parker

  17. The Wogster said:

    That means THE HELMET DID NOT WORK, lots of people can say the helmet
    saved my life, but unless you see exactly the same accident with a
    person of the same size, weight and body mass distribution, one with and
    one without a helmet, you don't know if the helmet helped, did nothing
    or made the situation worse.

    So if, in your own words, you "don't know if the helmet helped, did
    nothing, or made the situation worse", why did you start the post with
    "THE HELMET DID NOT WORK"?

    IMHO, I think you have to be pretty anti-helmet to believe the helmet
    made this guys situation worse.

  18. Rich said:
    The Wogster said:

    That means THE HELMET DID NOT WORK, lots of people can say the helmet
    saved my life, but unless you see exactly the same accident with a
    person of the same size, weight and body mass distribution, one with
    and one without a helmet, you don't know if the helmet helped, did
    nothing or made the situation worse.

    So if, in your own words, you "don't know if the helmet helped, did
    nothing, or made the situation worse", why did you start the post with
    "THE HELMET DID NOT WORK"?

    IMHO, I think you have to be pretty anti-helmet to believe the helmet
    made this guys situation worse.

    There are two components to this:

    1) He still ended up in a coma, which means the incident exceeded the
    protective ability of the helmet, so the helmet was unable to protect
    the user as much as the user needed.

    2) Depending on the kind of accident, a helmet has weight, therefore
    while some forces like blunt trauma can be reduced, that's one
    dimensional, we live in a 3 dimensional world, so the other two
    dimensions either are not affected, or can be increased.

    For example, a glancing blow, could cause extra-rotational forces, which
    could leave a user with other kinds of injuries.

    Too many people start yelling the mantra of "the helmet saved my life",
    when they really do not know, whether it did or not.

    W

  19. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Zoot Katz said:

    Mon, 8 Aug 2005 22:56:43 -0700, <[email hidden]>,
    [email hidden] (Tom Keats) wrote, of MHL:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Donald's been to court twice to fight it. All he's gotten out of it is
    a reduced fine. He sometimes wears a helmet on his civilian bike.

    IIRC turban-wearing Sihks are exempt from the MHL.


    Yeah, and then they discriminate against members of the "Church of the
    Spoken Wheel" because we don't own all the taxi licenses.

    If we're discriminated against, it might be more likely
    because ICBC resents us for not supporting them by driving
    and causing lucrative car/car collisions.

    Quoted message said:

    I so rarely
    see a turban-wearing Sikh on a bike it's pretty much a non-issue.

    Actually I saw a few today. Plus a bunch of people of whatever
    genders wearing long trousers (on a sultry day like today!),
    and a bunch of Mushroom People who either shun the sun or are
    too stuck at work to get out & about during the day enough to
    get that melanin happening. And some women cyclists in long
    tights. All power to 'em I guess, but I dunno how they can
    stand all that swelteriness.

    But since there are some exceptions, maybe that's the thin edge
    of the wedge, and someone with a hair up his ass about the BC
    MHL can dispute the (canadian) Constitutionality of it. Not me,
    though. I don't have time to go tilting at firmly ensconched
    windmills. They want me to wear the hat, I wear the hat.
    Usually. Whatever it takes to continue riding unhassled.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Hmmm, so are pedicab operators, apparently as long as
    it's a passenger pedicab, not a cargo pedicab:
    http://www.qp.gov.bc.ca/statreg/reg/M/MotorVehicle/261_96.htm

    Anybody who can get a doctor's note is exempted too.

    It's less trouble to get the hat than a doctor's note.
    Unless you're a doctor.

    Anyhow, to anyone who fears MHLs -- they're not the end of
    the world. We'll keep riding, even if They require us to
    wear newspaper hats, or carry ID papers, or register &
    license our bikes. Real cyclists are unstoppable and
    irrepressible. In fact, I guess that might be the best
    definition of a "real" cyclist.

    cheers,
    Tom

    --
    -- Nothing is safe from me.
    Above address is just a spam midden.
    I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

  20. Donn Deniston said:

    My question is this, if the region you ride in has a helmet law, have you or
    do you know of anyone who has been pulled over or actually ticketed for
    riding bare headed?

    I got pulled over and warned once. It was only a few months after the law
    came into force, so they probably weren't issuing fines yet.

    --
    Home page: http://members.westnet.com.au/mvw

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